More Clashes of Rights

[Big Guy]

A couple old/new discrimination conflicts are up again:

Mississippi:

Mississippi governor signs law allowing people with religious objections to deny services to gay couples:

http://www.businessinsider.com/mississippi-law-discrimination-gay-2016-4

This applies mainly to caterers, photographers, wedding planners etc who claim that their religious beliefs preclude them being involved in these events. This issue has been discussed here already and I still believe that you should not force a person in a business to serve and co-operate with everyone if it is against their religion. I believe that it is your business and if you do something that turns people off then the market will cause you to fail.

North Carolina: "Battle of the Bathrooms"

The city of Charlotte, North Carolina seems to be heading toward a showdown with the Governor and the state legislator this year and we’re once again dragged back into the battle over “transgender bathroom access” issues. The city is taking a second run at passing an ordinance which would force businesses and other public facilities to allow anyone “self-identifying” as transgender to use whichever bathroom, locker room or shower they wish.

http://hotair.com/archives/2016/02/22/the-battle-of-the-bathrooms-moves-to-north-carolina/

I am not resolved yet as to this issue. It is approximated that the number of transgender people is about one quarter of one percent of the population. Here we are trying to satisfy the wants of 1/4 of 1% of the population to make 90% uncomfortable. Some people might look at this want as a right.

I say uncomfortable because if I was standing and using a urinal or sitting on a toilet and someone dressed like a woman was walking around it would make me uneasy. Perhaps it is just me but I was brought up that a toilet was a very personal place used by any one sex at a time. I picture the worst scenario where a pervert can claim the right to use whichever he/she wants - especially in parks etc where children are the majority. I assume that single user locked toilets are the answer but that would be costly to upgrade for many businesses.

What do you think?

[jacee]

Corporations threaten to pull out of states over transgender bathroom law

In Georgia, the governor refused to sign law after Disney, AMC say they'll walk

Looks like it's going to take care of itself. ?

[Scott Mayers]

A couple old/new discrimination conflicts are up again:

Mississippi:

Mississippi governor signs law allowing people with religious objections to deny services to gay couples:

http://www.businessinsider.com/mississippi-law-discrimination-gay-2016-4

This applies mainly to caterers, photographers, wedding planners etc who claim that their religious beliefs preclude them being involved in these events. This issue has been discussed here already and I still believe that you should not force a person in a business to serve and co-operate with everyone if it is against their religion. I believe that it is your business and if you do something that turns people off then the market will cause you to fail.

North Carolina: "Battle of the Bathrooms"

The city of Charlotte, North Carolina seems to be heading toward a showdown with the Governor and the state legislator this year and we’re once again dragged back into the battle over “transgender bathroom access” issues. The city is taking a second run at passing an ordinance which would force businesses and other public facilities to allow anyone “self-identifying” as transgender to use whichever bathroom, locker room or shower they wish.

http://hotair.com/archives/2016/02/22/the-battle-of-the-bathrooms-moves-to-north-carolina/

I am not resolved yet as to this issue. It is approximated that the number of transgender people is about one quarter of one percent of the population. Here we are trying to satisfy the wants of 1/4 of 1% of the population to make 90% uncomfortable. Some people might look at this want as a right.

I say uncomfortable because if I was standing and using a urinal or sitting on a toilet and someone dressed like a woman was walking around it would make me uneasy. Perhaps it is just me but I was brought up that a toilet was a very personal place used by any one sex at a time. I picture the worst scenario where a pervert can claim the right to use whichever he/she wants - especially in parks etc where children are the majority. I assume that single user locked toilets are the answer but that would be costly to upgrade for many businesses.

What do you think?

I'm FOR people having the right voluntarily to use whichever bathroom and yet agree with you on the religious question. I don't support religion but agree that IF we are to accept people to freedoms of their beliefs, even while in disagreement, one has the right to decide even to BE intolerant in this way.

I think that even with your example of being concerned of women in the same room while you urinate is not something I share though. In fact, I remember finding it odd that we even place urinals out in the open in men's bathrooms in some places where privacy is completely the opposite. (I prefer no one being around when I go for the simple fact of security.....the thought of being attacked while peeing for anyone makes it hard to imagine you can stop to protect yourself in any way).

As a better means, I'd prefer that if we DO have bathrooms most universal, they should have NO sexual divisions. I even thought it should be as equally 'fair' to place urinals outside in the open, for instance. And to convenience everyone, then also have private stalls where people can choose their own privacy also, regardless of gender distinctions. So, have one bathroom called, "open" for ALL people without a concern for privacy, and "private" for ALL people finding this more comfortable, regardless of sex.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Scott Mayers

[Bonam]

I say uncomfortable because if I was standing and using a urinal or sitting on a toilet and someone dressed like a woman was walking around it would make me uneasy. Perhaps it is just me but I was brought up that a toilet was a very personal place used by any one sex at a time.

Why? Urinating and defecating are natural biological functions that every human, male or female or whatever else, must perform countless times throughout their lives. The vast majority of people of either gender aren't interested in watching others perform these functions, and even if they are, what exactly is going to happen to you if a woman or transgender person saw you peeing? Men see other men peeing all the time since urinals in public washrooms are typically within easy visibility of each other. Why is it different if a woman sees you peeing?

[kimmy]

I say uncomfortable because if I was standing and using a urinal or sitting on a toilet and someone dressed like a woman was walking around it would make me uneasy. Perhaps it is just me but I was brought up that a toilet was a very personal place used by any one sex at a time. I picture the worst scenario where a pervert can claim the right to use whichever he/she wants - especially in parks etc where children are the majority.

I should point out: that is what Gov. McCrory wants. He's the one saying that the biologically male person who lives as a female should have to walk into the mens' room.

As it stands, that trans person would go into the womens' restroom, go into a private stall, and answer nature's call with no one else being the wiser. This is the way it has always worked in the past. It was never an issue. This "bathroom battle" is a non-issue that has been whipped up by people who are mad that they lost the fight over same-sex-marriage and are desperately trying to find a way to hit back at "them".

-k

[Hal 9000]

I should point out: that is what Gov. McCrory wants. He's the one saying that the biologically male person who lives as a female should have to walk into the mens' room.

As it stands, that trans person would go into the womens' restroom, go into a private stall, and answer nature's call with no one else being the wiser. This is the way it has always worked in the past. It was never an issue. This "bathroom battle" is a non-issue that has been whipped up by people who are mad that they lost the fight over same-sex-marriage and are desperately trying to find a way to hit back at "them".

-k

I don't know if its that easy. Maybe there is a large majority of women who aren't comfortable with a dude strolling in and out of their bathroom. A year ago, you might not want Bruce Jenner in your washroom, today he is taking estrogen and grown his hair and all all of the sudden, women are ok with it? I don't know, just my opinion, but i think it opens the door to sickos (who may or may not be trans) going into womens washrooms to get their jollies or worse, maybe inflict harm on women.

Not every rule/law is about accepting or rejecting gays, some are about the protection and comfort of straights too.

[GostHacked]

I should point out: that is what Gov. McCrory wants. He's the one saying that the biologically male person who lives as a female should have to walk into the mens' room.

Sounds reasonable to me. Still got man parts? Use the men's bathroom.

[jacee]

I don't know if its that easy. Maybe there is a large majority of women who aren't comfortable with a dude strolling in and out of their bathroom. A year ago, you might not want Bruce Jenner in your washroom, today he is taking estrogen and grown his hair and all all of the sudden, women are ok with it? I don't know, just my opinion, but i think it opens the door to sickos (who may or may not be trans) going into womens washrooms to get their jollies or worse, maybe inflict harm on women.

Not every rule/law is about accepting or rejecting gays, some are about the protection and comfort of straights too.

You are missing something critical here Hal:

If someone is dressed and looking like a woman and using the private cubicles in a women's bathroom ... who is ever going to know or care?

If someone is dressed and looking like a man and using the private cubicles in a men's bathroom ... who is ever going to know or care?

(A person with a vagina, even though dressed like a man, is not likely to use a urinal.)

Think about it.

Kimmy is right: It was never an issue in the past, and it isn't now.

"Sickos" ... sexual predators ... are always an issue and dealt with as such.

Their behaviour gives them away.

But that has absolutely nothing to do with trans people minding their own business while doing their business in a private washroom cubicle.

If you are still confused or uncomfortable, though, there is an easy fix for transphobics: Always use a single person washroom. Problem solved.

.

Edited April 13, 2016 by jacee

[Hal 9000]

You are missing something critical here Hal:

If someone is dressed and looking like a woman and using the private cubicles in a women's bathroom ... who is ever going to know or care?

If someone is dressed and looking like a man and using the private cubicles in a men's bathroom ... who is ever going to know or care?

Think about it.

Kimmy is right: It was never an issue in the past, and it isn't now.

.

On a personal level, i couldn't care less, but i can see why some women would care.

It'll be all good, until some perv strolls into a bathroom and rapes (or worse) a woman. I know that can happen anyway,but people usually notice a dude walking into a woman's washroom.

Sometimes separating men from women is good for the safety of women. One could argue that the problems in universities can be tracked down to co-ed dorms, co-ed bathrooms and generally a reluctance to keep men and women separate in certain situations.

[jacee]

On a personal level, i couldn't care less, but i can see why some women would care.

Then let the women deal with it.

It'll be all good, until some perv strolls into a bathroom and rapes (or worse) a woman. I know that can happen anyway,but people usually notice a dude walking into a woman's washroom.

That's a rapist.

Nothing to do with Trans people.

Sometimes separating men from women is good for the safety of women.

We'll decide that thanks.

One could argue that the problems in universities can be tracked down to co-ed dorms, co-ed bathrooms and generally a reluctance to keep men and women separate in certain situations.

Absolute nonsense.

You are free to choose.

Butt out of other people's choices, thanks.

.

Edited April 13, 2016 by jacee

[Hal 9000]

Then let the women deal with it.

We'll decide that thanks.

Absolute nonsense.

You are free to choose.

Butt out of my choices, thanks.

.

WoW! you're hostile.

As I said, I couldn't care less, but I can see why some women would care.

You guys want to claim the "all men want is sex" and some feminists say "All men are potential rapists". But, a man can put on a dress and that all changes - now they're normal! I doubt it. I don't wear a dress, but if I claim that I don't believe in gender roles, would you be OK with me being in a public washroom with you? Does it all come down to dress code? Seems like it! And if so, what would be acceptable attire for me to use the women's washroom with you?

[jacee]

WoW! you're hostile.

You have a problem with strong women?

As I said, I couldn't care less, but I can see why some women would care.

Well then find me one and I'll discuss it with her.

You should butt out though.

You guys

Who?

want to claim the "all men want is sex"

Oh ... well ... "guys"?

Want to respond to that?

and some feminists say "All men are potential rapists".

Ya?

Where'd you hear that?

But, a man can put on a dress and that all changes - now they're normal! I doubt it.

Wow. You're really confused.

We're only talking about going to the bathroom here.

I don't wear a dress, but if I claim that I don't believe in gender roles, would you be OK with me being in a public washroom with you? Does it all come down to dress code? Seems like it! And if so, what would be acceptable attire for me to use the women's washroom with you?

I wouldn't even know you were a man.

(Some women have facial hair.

I don't demand to see their genitals.

I just go about my business.)

You'd better be VERY careful in public bathrooms though.

There could be a VAGINA going into a cubicle in the men's room ... dressed in a man's clothes ... and you wouldn't even know!

That's what you have to worry about.

Horrifying, eh?!

?

.

Edited April 13, 2016 by jacee

[Big Guy]

The other problem with men and women using the same washrooms is the cleanliness. Anyone who cleans public washrooms will tell you that the women's washrooms are always in worse shape than the men's.

I am not sure that I want women dirtying up the public washrooms that I have to use.

[jacee]

The other problem with men and women using the same washrooms is the cleanliness. Anyone who cleans public washrooms will tell you that the women's washrooms are always in worse shape than the men's.

I am not sure that I want women dirtying up the public washrooms that I have to use.

?

Just a heads up:

If you're using the women's bathroom, you sit down to pee.

Women don't piss on the seat and the floor.

. ?

[Hal 9000]

You have a problem with strong women?

We'll then find me one and I'll discuss it with her.

You should butt out though.

Wow. You're paranoid.

I wouldn't even know you were a man.

(Some women have facial hair.

I don't demand to see their genitals.

I just go about my business.)

You'd better be very careful in public bathrooms though.

There could be a vagina going into a cubicle in the men's room ... dressed in a man's clothes ... and you wouldn't even know!

That's what you have to worry about.

Horrifying, eh?

.

Clearly there are a lot of women who support this position. So, when you say "we'll decide", who are you referring to?

If I walked into your bathroom, I guarantee you'd recognize me as a man - but it wouldn't matter if I told you I don't believe in gender roles - right?

And, why should I butt out, this affects me too.

[Guest]

Just a heads up:

If you're using the women's bathroom, you sit down to pee.

Women don't piss on the seat and the floor.

.

I sit down anywhere that doesn't have a urinal. Get some reading done.

Edited April 13, 2016 by bcsapper

[Hal 9000]

BTW - We're talking about locker rooms and showers too.

Do you, Jacee want a guy like me in the shower with you? I would bet most women aren't comfortable with a man showering with them.

[Big Guy]

I sit down anywhere that doesn't have a urinal. Get some reading done.

Careful what you read. A few years ago I sat down in a public rest room and noticed some minute scribbling on the door in front of me. On investigation, I read "If you can read this message then you are pooping on the floor!"

[Hal 9000]

Just a heads up:

If you're using the women's bathroom, you sit down to pee.

Women don't piss on the seat and the floor.

.

I know women that won't sit on the toilets and prefer to hover above to do their thing. Just ask anyone who cleans bars, clubs and gas station bathrooms what they think of women's bathrooms.

[Guest]

Careful what you read. A few years ago I sat down in a public rest room and noticed some minute scribbling on the door in front of me. On investigation, I read "If you can read this message then you are pooping on the floor!"

I was once in a washroom at King's Cross station in London(many years ago), when someone tried to pass me something to read under the wall from the stall next door. A note! They were quite insistent, shaking it and making "Pssst" noises.

I ran for the train...

[jacee]

Clearly there are a lot of women who support this position. So, when you say "we'll decide", who are you referring to?

Those personally affected.

You're butting into women's decisions, speculating about how women might feel, claiming some right to take over their decisions 'in their best interests'.

That isn't welcome.

If I walked into your bathroom, I guarantee you'd recognize me as a man - but it wouldn't matter if I told you I don't believe in gender roles - right?

Why would you be making an issue of it?

I'm not really interested in your problems, issues, views or penis.

I just have to pee.

And, why should I butt out, this affects me too.

So confine yourself to your own issues ... the vaginas in the men's room I assume?

.

Edited April 13, 2016 by jacee

[jacee]

BTW - We're talking about locker rooms and showers too.

Do you, Jacee want a guy like me in the shower with you? I would bet most women aren't comfortable with a man showering with them.

If you identify as a woman.

I don't share my shower though.

.

Edited April 13, 2016 by jacee

[eyeball]

Sounds reasonable to me. Still got man parts? Use the men's bathroom.

If I gotta go and the men's can is locked and the women's isn't I'm going to let my feminine side dictate. I'm sure it will be screaming f^#* the rules...you gotta go right NOW just as loudly.

It's happened before and it will happen again. Deal with it.

Edited April 13, 2016 by eyeball

[jacee]

Sounds reasonable to me. Still got man parts? Use the men's bathroom.

I disagree.

It is nobody's business what genitalia are under your skirt.

And your skirt would cause some consternation in the men's room.

.

Edited April 13, 2016 by jacee

[jacee]

If I gotta go and the men's can is locked and the women's isn't I'm going to let my feminine side dictate. I'm sure it will be screaming f^#* the rules...you gotta go right NOW just as loudly.

It's happened before and it will happen again. Deal with it.

Done that many times.

Women's is occupied, Men's isn't ... I'm gonna stand there and wait?

Because of a silly sign on the door?

Don't think so. ?

.

Edited April 13, 2016 by jacee