Are we going to admit Universities are producing thin-skinned people?

[Moonlight Graham]

Just now, bcsapper said:

Pass they the salt?  I hate that!

Lol.  Pass them the salt.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Moonlight Graham

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Lol.  Pass them the salt.

Don't spoil it for me...

[Moonlight Graham]

15 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

The word 'snowflake' isn't helpful in these discussions.  It's one of these new insults like 'alt right' that creates a short-hand caricature for easy labelling.

I agree.  Labeling people in a derogatory fashion doesn't help the discussion, even if you disagree with "snowflakes".  I don't use terms like SJW or "alt-right" etc.

[Moonlight Graham]

On 2016-12-19 at 5:13 PM, cybercoma said:

 If you have a hard time understanding that gender is not binary, that's not their problem. It's yours. It's really not that difficult to understand.

Just re: the non-binary thing,  I'm cool with people who believe they're non-binary.  But let's make it easy for everyone.  If you think you're 60% feminine and 40% masculine then either pick "he" or "she" if you want to pick one was your dominant gender, otherwise people can call you "they".  Is there anything wrong with that?

Edited December 21, 2016 by Moonlight Graham

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I agree.  Labeling people in a derogatory fashion doesn't help the discussion, even if you disagree with "snowflakes".  I don't use terms like SJW or "alt-right" etc.

Snowflake is just easier.  It's better than having to write out "person who demands that you don't express an opinion that in any way disagrees with their blinkered view of the world, or you get fired".

I suppose one could use copy and paste.

[?Impact]

9 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

But let's make it easy for everyone.

Eskimos have 50 some odd words for snow, and you are worried about a few extra gender pronouns. The first one on the list might interest many here.

Snow particles

(1) Snowflake
qanuk 'snowflake'
qanir- 'to snow'
qanunge- 'to snow' [NUN]
qanugglir- 'to snow' [NUN]

(2) Frost
kaneq 'frost'
kaner- 'be frosty/frost sth.'

(3) Fine snow/rain particles
kanevvluk 'fine snow/rain particles
kanevcir- to get fine snow/rain particles

(4) Drifting particles
natquik 'drifting snow/etc'
natqu(v)igte- 'for snow/etc. to drift along ground'

(5) Clinging particles
nevluk 'clinging debris/
nevlugte- 'have clinging debris/...'lint/snow/dirt...'

B. Fallen snow

(6) Fallen snow on the ground
aniu [NS] 'snow on ground'
aniu- [NS] 'get snow on ground'
apun [NS] 'snow on ground'
qanikcaq 'snow on ground'
qanikcir- 'get snow on ground'

(7) Soft, deep fallen snow on the ground
muruaneq 'soft deep snow'

(8) Crust on fallen snow
qetrar- [NSU] 'for snow to crust'
qerretrar- [NSU] 'for snow to crust'

(9) Fresh fallen snow on the ground
nutaryuk 'fresh snow' [HBC]

(10) Fallen snow floating on water
qanisqineq 'snow floating on water'

C. Snow formations

(11) Snow bank
qengaruk 'snow bank' [Y, HBC]

(12) Snow block
utvak 'snow carved in block'

(13) Snow cornice
navcaq [NSU] 'snow cornice, snow (formation) about to collapse'
navcite- 'get caught in an avalanche'

D. Meterological events

(14) Blizzard, snowstorm
pirta 'blizzard, snowstorm'
pircir- 'to blizzard'
pirtuk 'blizzard, snowstorm'

(15) Severe blizzard
cellallir-, cellarrlir- 'to snow heavily'
pir(e)t(e)pag- 'to blizzard severely'
pirrelvag- 'to blizzard severely'

Edited December 21, 2016 by ?Impact

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

Eskimos have 50 some odd words for snow, and you are worried about a few extra gender pronouns. The first one on the list might interest many here.

Snow particles

(1) Snowflake
qanuk 'snowflake'
qanir- 'to snow'
qanunge- 'to snow' [NUN]
qanugglir- 'to snow' [NUN]

(2) Frost
kaneq 'frost'
kaner- 'be frosty/frost sth.'

(3) Fine snow/rain particles
kanevvluk 'fine snow/rain particles
kanevcir- to get fine snow/rain particles

(4) Drifting particles
natquik 'drifting snow/etc'
natqu(v)igte- 'for snow/etc. to drift along ground'

(5) Clinging particles
nevluk 'clinging debris/
nevlugte- 'have clinging debris/...'lint/snow/dirt...'

B. Fallen snow

(6) Fallen snow on the ground
aniu [NS] 'snow on ground'
aniu- [NS] 'get snow on ground'
apun [NS] 'snow on ground'
qanikcaq 'snow on ground'
qanikcir- 'get snow on ground'

(7) Soft, deep fallen snow on the ground
muruaneq 'soft deep snow'

(8) Crust on fallen snow
qetrar- [NSU] 'for snow to crust'
qerretrar- [NSU] 'for snow to crust'

(9) Fresh fallen snow on the ground
nutaryuk 'fresh snow' [HBC]

(10) Fallen snow floating on water
qanisqineq 'snow floating on water'

C. Snow formations

(11) Snow bank
qengaruk 'snow bank' [Y, HBC]

(12) Snow block
utvak 'snow carved in block'

(13) Snow cornice
navcaq [NSU] 'snow cornice, snow (formation) about to collapse'
navcite- 'get caught in an avalanche'

D. Meterological events

(14) Blizzard, snowstorm
pirta 'blizzard, snowstorm'
pircir- 'to blizzard'
pirtuk 'blizzard, snowstorm'

(15) Severe blizzard
cellallir-, cellarrlir- 'to snow heavily'
pir(e)t(e)pag- 'to blizzard severely'
pirrelvag- 'to blizzard severely'

I don't think they'd get pissed off if we got one wrong.

[Moonlight Graham]

11 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

Eskimos have 50 some odd words for snow, and you are worried about a few extra gender pronouns. The first one on the list might interest many here.

Snow particles

(1) Snowflake
qanuk 'snowflake'
qanir- 'to snow'
qanunge- 'to snow' [NUN]
qanugglir- 'to snow' [NUN]

(2) Frost
kaneq 'frost'
kaner- 'be frosty/frost sth.'

(3) Fine snow/rain particles
kanevvluk 'fine snow/rain particles
kanevcir- to get fine snow/rain particles

(4) Drifting particles
natquik 'drifting snow/etc'
natqu(v)igte- 'for snow/etc. to drift along ground'

(5) Clinging particles
nevluk 'clinging debris/
nevlugte- 'have clinging debris/...'lint/snow/dirt...'

B. Fallen snow

(6) Fallen snow on the ground
aniu [NS] 'snow on ground'
aniu- [NS] 'get snow on ground'
apun [NS] 'snow on ground'
qanikcaq 'snow on ground'
qanikcir- 'get snow on ground'

(7) Soft, deep fallen snow on the ground
muruaneq 'soft deep snow'

(8) Crust on fallen snow
qetrar- [NSU] 'for snow to crust'
qerretrar- [NSU] 'for snow to crust'

(9) Fresh fallen snow on the ground
nutaryuk 'fresh snow' [HBC]

(10) Fallen snow floating on water
qanisqineq 'snow floating on water'

C. Snow formations

(11) Snow bank
qengaruk 'snow bank' [Y, HBC]

(12) Snow block
utvak 'snow carved in block'

(13) Snow cornice
navcaq [NSU] 'snow cornice, snow (formation) about to collapse'
navcite- 'get caught in an avalanche'

D. Meterological events

(14) Blizzard, snowstorm
pirta 'blizzard, snowstorm'
pircir- 'to blizzard'
pirtuk 'blizzard, snowstorm'

(15) Severe blizzard
cellallir-, cellarrlir- 'to snow heavily'
pir(e)t(e)pag- 'to blizzard severely'
pirrelvag- 'to blizzard severely'

If you live in the arctic, there isn't going to be much around them besides snow as far as the eye can see.  And if precipitation does come, they could die if they aren't prepared.  So what kind of comparison is that? 

Also, I don't care what Inuit do.

[The_Squid]

1 hour ago, ?Impact said:

Eskimos

Thats a derogatory term for Inuit people.

 

[?Impact]

3 minutes ago, The_Squid said:

Thats a derogatory term for Inuit people.

Only in Canada - pity. Inuit is only one of several northern people, mainly those in Canada and Greenland. The other major groups are the Yupik and Iñupiat. Eskimo is still a common term in places like Alaska. There are other northern cultures like the Aleut that are considered distinct.

One of the suggested origins of the term Eskimo is that it might have been derived from the word askamiciw which roughly translated means eater of raw meat. Probably some overly white politically correct Conservatives think that eating raw meat is something only savages do, and equated it to a derogatory term. Of course that is complete nonsense, nothing wrong with eating raw meat. I love sushi, and while I am very cautious of steak tartar it is delicious. I hear seal eyeballs are a great treat, although I might have some reservations about trying them. Of course Eskimo might have been derived from many other words as well, rendering the above argument moot. Some of the alternate suggestions are "snowshoe netter" (ie. one who makes snowshoes), or simply people who speak a different language. 

[Bonam]

4 hours ago, ?Impact said:

Eskimos have 50 some odd words for snow, and you are worried about a few extra gender pronouns. The first one on the list might interest many here.

Skiers also have 50 some odd words for snow. But they don't go around demanding everyone else use them. 

[cybercoma]

18 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Actually, both terms are in current usage in the United States, and some Canadians just import them like so many other things American. 

The alt-left doesn't need your approval in Canada to exist.

Do you need a safe space from people from other countries discussing American politics?

[cybercoma]

16 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Just re: the non-binary thing,  I'm cool with people who believe they're non-binary.  But let's make it easy for everyone.  If you think you're 60% feminine and 40% masculine then either pick "he" or "she" if you want to pick one was your dominant gender, otherwise people can call you "they".  Is there anything wrong with that?

Some people pick them, some people don't. It's for them to decide. 

Look at it this way. You identify as a guy. You're used to being called he and him. If someone mistaked you for a woman and called you "she," you probably wouldn't care much, but if they did it constantly over and over again, even after you said, "Yo, I'm a dude," then you would probably start to feel pretty uncomfortable or even pissed.

There's some people who were assigned a gender at birth who feel just as put off being called by that gender. There's some folks who just don't feel comfortable with he or she. It's not that difficult to stop for a second, not be an asshole to them, and just address them in a way that makes them feel included and comfortable.

I know enough non-binary people to understand that it's sometimes difficult to remember how to address them. Almost all of them are really understanding if you're a friend and make the effort. People are just asking to be recognized for who they are.

[cybercoma]

11 hours ago, Bonam said:

Skiers also have 50 some odd words for snow. But they don't go around demanding everyone else use them. 

Are you really equating inanimate objects with people? Snow is not a person. It doesn't give a shit what you call it.

[GostHacked]

9 minutes ago, cybercoma said:

Some people pick them, some people don't. It's for them to decide. 

Look at it this way. You identify as a guy. You're used to being called he and him. If someone mistaked you for a woman and called you "she," you probably wouldn't care much, but if they did it constantly over and over again, even after you said, "Yo, I'm a dude," then you would probably start to feel pretty uncomfortable or even pissed.

I've seen this argument before. I simply stop dealing with those who don't respect me. Call me what you want, but does not mean I have to interact with you. It's like many of these people purposely get into these situations so they can cry foul and play victim. That's being an asshat troll and should be called out for it.

The other part with non-binary, if they decide to be something one day and the other the next day, that is not helping their cause. I don't want to have to constantly accommodate if they can't make up their mind or change it so often. I will ditch all pronounce and simply use their name, easiest solution. Otherwise I will start using the term 'it'.

Edited December 21, 2016 by GostHacked

[cybercoma]

5 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

I've seen this argument before. I simply stop dealing with those who don't respect me. Call me what you want, but does not mean I have to interact with you. It's like many of these people purposely get into these situations so they can cry foul and play victim. That's being an asshat troll and should be called out for it.

And when that person is at your place of employment and you can't avoid them?

 

[GostHacked]

27 minutes ago, cybercoma said:

And when that person is at your place of employment and you can't avoid them?

 

Most of this happens outside of a work environment and most of them are not out of University yet. Once they hit the real world, they will learn a few things.  But this is why there is an HR department to deal with these things.

[Moonlight Graham]

48 minutes ago, cybercoma said:

Some people pick them, some people don't. It's for them to decide. 

Look at it this way. You identify as a guy. You're used to being called he and him. If someone mistaked you for a woman and called you "she," you probably wouldn't care much, but if they did it constantly over and over again, even after you said, "Yo, I'm a dude," then you would probably start to feel pretty uncomfortable or even pissed.

There's some people who were assigned a gender at birth who feel just as put off being called by that gender. There's some folks who just don't feel comfortable with he or she. It's not that difficult to stop for a second, not be an asshole to them, and just address them in a way that makes them feel included and comfortable.

I know enough non-binary people to understand that it's sometimes difficult to remember how to address them. Almost all of them are really understanding if you're a friend and make the effort. People are just asking to be recognized for who they are.

I'm 100% fine with saying "them/they" or their first name for non-binary, or ie: a trans man "he".  I'm not going to start calling people "xe" or other made-up pronouns.  If it will get me in trouble at work or with the law I'll just call them by their first name.  Seems most non-binary are going with the "they/them" direction anyways.

Respect is a 2-way street.  LGBT+ people need to be respected but they also have to respect the rest of society too if they wish to compel words out of other people's mouths (especially through legislation), and causing unneeded confusion with new made-up pronouns to remember and learn isn't the way to do it.

[Moonlight Graham]

10 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

Most of this happens outside of a work environment and most of them are not out of University yet. Once they hit the real world, they will learn a few things.  But this is why there is an HR department to deal with these things.

Well, you'll be charged with a crime if you don't comply, or dragged in front of a human rights commission, according to the Ontario Human Rights code.

[cybercoma]

23 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

Most of this happens outside of a work environment and most of them are not out of University yet.

University is work. It's their responsibility to be there to get their education. It's the same as a job, where you have to show up every day. They have a right to be there and not to be harassed by colleagues.

[cybercoma]

13 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

If it will get me in trouble at work or with the law I'll just call them by their first name.

And that's fine. People are just asking for a little respect.

[cybercoma]

14 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

they also have to respect the rest of society too

This is like saying blacks during the Jim Crow era should have respected society by sitting at the back of the bus, using their shitty polluted fountains, and not walking through the same entrances as whites.

[?Impact]

13 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I'm 100% fine with...

I think that most people who take offence it is because they are being called something they don't relate to. If you call someone a he/Mr. and that person doesn't consider themself a man, or similarly she/Ms./Mrs./Miss and that person doesn't consider themself a woman then offence is taken. While the third person plural is a bit awkward for an individual, I doubt many would seriously object. The whole point of xe was to try and establish a gender neutral third person singular, kind of like some people use M. as a gender neutral replacement for Mr./Ms./Mrs./Miss.

[GostHacked]

39 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Well, you'll be charged with a crime if you don't comply, or dragged in front of a human rights commission, according to the Ontario Human Rights code.

I would actually fight it if someone brought me into HR because of it.

My reasoning being, in terms of benefits and all the other things that person would need, the forms ask if you are male or female. When it comes to medical stuff, you can't use non-binary as that won't help with a proper diagnosis of an issue.

I cannot use they/them to describe an individual. It simply does not make sense as they/them is commonly used in the plural and not the singular. This is the confusion we face with regards to language and purposeful confusion of the terms.

Also the scenario would be that the other person would be charged if they don't call me a HE/Sir/Mr. 

Edited December 21, 2016 by GostHacked

[Moonlight Graham]

41 minutes ago, cybercoma said:

This is like saying blacks during the Jim Crow era should have respected society by sitting at the back of the bus, using their shitty polluted fountains, and not walking through the same entrances as whites.

I don't think trying to deal with some made up gender pronouns is even remotely close to denying people basic freedom of movement.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Moonlight Graham