Are we going to admit Universities are producing thin-skinned people?

[eyeball]

45 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Yes, I am hearing the same thing about the crazy Trump supporters.

Who is selling all this fear anyway ?  

It sells itself.

[Argus]

19 hours ago, Bonam said:

Indeed. I've said before that the ideology of social justice is just as dangerous and potentially destructive as that of communism and fascism.  

Speaking of their ideology, and what they foist on the gullible minds of students...

The very banner across the school’s website makes that plain: “Anti-oppression/social transformation/social justice.”

The school’s “values” statement fills in some of the detail.

“School of Social Work is a leader in critical education, research and practice with culturally and socially diverse students and communities in the advancement of anti-oppression/anti-racism, anti-Black racism, anti-colonialism/decolonization, Aboriginal reconciliation, feminism, anti-capitalism, queer and trans liberation struggles, issues in disability and Madness, among other social justice struggles.”

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/christie-blatchford-falling-victim-to-schools-obligatory-blah-blah-to-human-rights-a-classic-of-modern-canadian-university-soft-think

[Bryan]

6 hours ago, Argus said:

Speaking of their ideology, and what they foist on the gullible minds of students...

The very banner across the school’s website makes that plain: “Anti-oppression/social transformation/social justice.”

The school’s “values” statement fills in some of the detail.

“School of Social Work is a leader in critical education, research and practice with culturally and socially diverse students and communities in the advancement of anti-oppression/anti-racism, anti-Black racism, anti-colonialism/decolonization, Aboriginal reconciliation, feminism, anti-capitalism, queer and trans liberation struggles, issues in disability and Madness, among other social justice struggles.”

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/christie-blatchford-falling-victim-to-schools-obligatory-blah-blah-to-human-rights-a-classic-of-modern-canadian-university-soft-think

It's just Marxism under a new name. Using the guise of stopping oppression as a cover to carry out actual oppression. Branding some identifiable group as 'elite' or 'privileged' to fight against is right out of Stalin's playbook. 

[The_Squid]

2 hours ago, Bryan said:

 Branding some identifiable group as 'elite' or 'privileged' to fight against is right out of Stalin's playbook. 

And Trump's....

And Harper's....

And Leitch's....

And Brexit's....

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, The_Squid said:

And Trump's....

And Harper's....

And Leitch's....

And Brexit's....

I think in some cases, Trump and Brexit come to mind, they brand themselves.

[Bryan]

25 minutes ago, The_Squid said:

And Trump's....

And Harper's....

And Leitch's....

And Brexit's....

Not at all. Exactly the opposite.

[Bonam]

3 hours ago, Bryan said:

It's just Marxism under a new name. Using the guise of stopping oppression as a cover to carry out actual oppression. Branding some identifiable group as 'elite' or 'privileged' to fight against is right out of Stalin's playbook. 

Sadly not specific to communism; almost any flavor of authoritarianism uses these same tactics. And yet people still fall for it. 

[Moonlight Graham]

On 2016-11-21 at 8:24 AM, TimG said:

You seem to be missing the entire point. The issue is not about picking the wrong pronoun when the choice is he or she. I certainly have no issue using one a person prefers and I doubt the UoT professor has any is with that too. The problem is proliferation of bogus pronouns that self no purpose other than inflating the egos of infantile narcissists who think they are so  "special" that they deserve their own pronouns.

Frankly, if you want to pander to these delusional narcissists then that is your choice. But passing laws requiring that others  participate in this sham is simply wrong.

But the thing is, these people have gender identities than a fairly new to the mainstream of society.  Some people don't identify as either male or female.  If you have new gender identities doesn't that entail the need for new gender pronouns? Now, to legislate it and to threaten to have men with clubs and guns come to your house and drag you away if you don't want to say it is a different debate entirely.

Honestly, I just say make it easier on everyone and call call them "they, them, theirs" etc.

[Moonlight Graham]

On 2016-11-21 at 8:06 PM, TimG said:

Anyone who chooses it engage in radical and non-reversible self-mutilation is mentally ill and any competent psychiatrist would agree. The conceit that transgender are not mentally ill is a good example of how the radical left seeks to deny reality in order to push their agenda. The push to use the force of law to compel others to play lip service to your delusions is appalling. Perhaps we need a law that will make it illegal for someone to say that a fetus is not a child because that would drive home how absurd your position is.

It's completely medically possible to have ie: the body of a woman, but something in your brain developed where it is actually male.  There's all sorts of genetic or developmental circumstances that happen that aren't the norm.  Sometimes women are born with penises.  There was once a major league pitcher with 6 fingers on each hand.

 

[Moonlight Graham]

On 2016-11-21 at 8:07 PM, Wilber said:

They don't have to be either he or she but one person is not a they. They need to find a different word. Make one up if they want. Either that or find a different word to describe two or more people.

"They" can describe one person:

"Is Billy here?"  "They were here a minute ago."

 

[Bryan]

They is either plural, or used to bridge awkward sentences when not referring to anyone in particular. One person cannot singularly be a "they".

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, Bryan said:

They is either plural, or used to bridge awkward sentences when not referring to anyone in particular. One person cannot singularly be a "they".

Don't you oppress Billy!

[TimG]

8 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

It's completely medically possible to have ie: the body of a woman, but something in your brain developed where it is actually male.  There's all sorts of genetic or developmental circumstances that happen that aren't the norm.  Sometimes women are born with penises

The diagnosis of a "body of a woman with a mind of a male" is not an objective diagnosis. It is rather a rationalization used to justify normalization of feelings that would be treated as delusions if they pertained to anything other than sex. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_identity_disorder 

Can you give me any reason why having a desire to chop off your leg should be treated differently than a desire to chop off other bits of your body?

That said, people who have actual physical abnormalities are different. In those cases seeking surgery to correct the abnormalities would be routine but those people are a minority of people who claim to be transgender. In most cases we have biologically normal people suffering from a variation of the body integrity identity disorder linked above. Such people are mentally ill by any rational definition of the term.

Edited December 1, 2016 by TimG

[eyeball]

5 hours ago, TimG said:

In most cases we have biologically normal people suffering from a variation of the body integrity identity disorder linked above. Such people are mentally ill by any rational definition of the term.

That's some variation.

From the very first sentence in your link:

Quote

Body integrity identity disorder (BIID, also referred to as amputee identity disorder)[1] is a psychological disorder in which an otherwise healthy individual feels that they are meant to be disabled.

I'm pretty sure most transgenderd people already feel disabled and want to enable themselves. The complete opposite of the hypotheses you've offered.

[TimG]

7 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I'm pretty sure most transgenderd people already feel disabled and want to enable themselves. The complete opposite of the hypotheses you've offered.

Semantics do not change the fact that there are plenty of mental illnesses where people imagine things which are not true. Why should a man who imagines he is a woman be treated differently than a man to imagines that his leg does not belong to him? There is no material difference between the two examples. In both cases the mind creates feeling which are real but disconnected from reality.

Edited December 1, 2016 by TimG

[Wilber]

11 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

"They" can describe one person:

"Is Billy here?"  "They were here a minute ago."

 

Only if Billy was there with someone else, otherwise it would be "he was here a minute ago". Or she, I had an aunt who went by Biliy

[Moonlight Graham]

7 hours ago, TimG said:

The diagnosis of a "body of a woman with a mind of a male" is not an objective diagnosis. It is rather a rationalization used to justify normalization of feelings that would be treated as delusions if they pertained to anything other than sex. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_identity_disorder 

Can you give me any reason why having a desire to chop off your leg should be treated differently than a desire to chop off other bits of your body?

That said, people who have actual physical abnormalities are different. In those cases seeking surgery to correct the abnormalities would be routine but those people are a minority of people who claim to be transgender. In most cases we have biologically normal people suffering from a variation of the body integrity identity disorder linked above. Such people are mentally ill by any rational definition of the term.

How do we determine this?  How do you know " The diagnosis of a "body of a woman with a mind of a male" is not an objective diagnosis."?  Are you a doctor?  Do you have medical links to back up these claims?  How do we know which case is genetic, another is developmental, and one is a mental disorder?  Are we going to start taking tissue samples of their brains??

At the end of the day, who cares???  If a person wants to cut off their penis, or your everyday heterosexual wants to get a boob job, if it makes them happy, who cares?  As long as we don't have to pay for these surgeries on the public dime, I don't care, people are free to do what they like.  If being/feeling transgender is a mental illness or a legit quirk of evolution, we still have a duty to treat these people humanely. I'm not going to call these people by 30 different pronouns, but I'll call them "they" or I'll call a trans man "he" if they want.  I'm not going to disrespect another human being and make the very, very difficult and socially isolating things they're going through even more isolating and painful. Trans people are very few in society.  If a trans man wants to use the male washroom, I don't care, knock yourself out.

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, TimG said:

Semantics do not change the fact that there are plenty of mental illnesses where people imagine things which are not true. Why should a man who imagines he is a woman be treated differently than a man to imagines that his leg does not belong to him? There is no material difference between the two examples. In both cases the mind creates feeling which are real but disconnected from reality.

In any case, do you realize just how accommodating and respectful society is towards people who feel and believe things with no basis in reality whatsoever? It happens all the time. You should check out the preamble to our constitution for example.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

How do we determine this?  How do you know " The diagnosis of a "body of a woman with a mind of a male" is not an objective diagnosis."?  Are you a doctor?  Do you have medical links to back up these claims?  How do we know which case is genetic, another is developmental, and one is a mental disorder?  Are we going to start taking tissue samples of their brains??

At the end of the day, who cares???  If a person wants to cut off their penis, or your everyday heterosexual wants to get a boob job, if it makes them happy, who cares?  As long as we don't have to pay for these surgeries on the public dime, I don't care, people are free to do what they like.  If being/feeling transgender is a mental illness or a legit quirk of evolution, we still have a duty to treat these people humanely. I'm not going to call these people by 30 different pronouns, but I'll call them "they" or I'll call a trans man "he" if they want.  I'm not going to disrespect another human being and make the very, very difficult and socially isolating things they're going through even more isolating and painful. Trans people are very few in society.  If a trans man wants to use the male washroom, I don't care, knock yourself out.

Exactly.  I can't remember people's names, never mind their suddenly preferred pronoun.  I would never purposely show a lack of respect by deliberately getting it wrong, but then, I wouldn't want to be fired if I decided I wasn't going to risk it.  Why are people so rabidly intolerant when it comes to a perceived minor intolerance?

Edited December 1, 2016 by bcsapper

[eyeball]

2 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Why are people so rabidly intolerant when it comes to a perceived minor intolerance?

Because people are so rabidly intent on being intolerant.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Because people are so rabidly intent on being intolerant.

I know.  I don't get it.  I guess it's back to the thin skinned thing.

Edit>  Or maybe it's a tactic done on purpose.

Edited December 1, 2016 by bcsapper

[Moonlight Graham]

4 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Exactly.  I can't remember people's names, never mind their suddenly preferred pronoun.  I would never purposely show a lack of respect by deliberately getting it wrong, but then, I wouldn't want to be fired if I decided I wasn't going to risk it.  Why are people so rabidly intolerant when it comes to a perceived minor intolerance?

I don't know if I'd go so far as to punish the U of T professor for calling the trans woman a "he", but holy crap is that being disrespectful.  It takes such little effort on his part to make someone going through some tough things to feel somewhat normal.  Even if you don't believe in it, just humour them then holy geez!

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I don't know if I'd go so far as to punish the U of T professor for calling the trans woman a "he", but holy crap is that being disrespectful.  It takes such little effort on his part to make someone going through some tough things to feel somewhat normal.  Even if you don't believe in it, just humour them then holy geez!

Agreed.  That's risk free. 

[TimG]

1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Are you a doctor?  Do you have medical links to back up these claims? 

At the end of the day, who cares???  If a person wants to cut off their penis, or your everyday heterosexual wants to get a boob job, if it makes them happy, who cares?  

I say it is an subjective (a.k.a. psychiatric) diagnosis because the only way it could be an objective (a.k.a. medical) diagnosis is if there was some way to medically distinguish between the 'mind of a woman' and the 'mind of a man'. Everything I have read says the brains and brain activity patterns of men and women are identical to the instruments we have today which would make an objective diagnosis impossible.

Generally I am in favour of live and let live for adults. What I object to the attempts to normalize psychiatric problems to the point where confused children are being put on hormone replacement to delay puberty because they might want to transition. I object to laws that prohibit parents from encouraging kids to accept their biological sex based on the ridiculous notion that 'gender disphoria' is some immutable constant that can only be resolved by rejecting ones biologic sex. I also object to laws that tell me I have enable narcissists who obsess about their gender to the point where they demand that others use special words to refer to them.

That said, if someone asked me to use 'he' or 'she' I would honour their request and I certainly would not call people mentally ill  in order to be insulting (I would not do that to a schizophrenic either). I simply think trying to deny the obvious by pretending that people who seek sex changes are not mentally ill is absurd.

Edited December 1, 2016 by TimG

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, bcsapper said:

I know.  I don't get it.  I guess it's back to the thin skinned thing.

Edit>  Or maybe it's a tactic done on purpose.

Its just a symptom of that echo-chamber confirmation-bias bubble-thingy that's going around these days. I hear it leaves you stuffed up with a hollow feeling in the middle of your head.

Edited December 1, 2016 by eyeball