Still Going to Buy the F-35, Really?

[On Guard for Thee]

There is nothing new here....topic has been debated for years (see link). Other nations have procured new aircraft while Canada does what it always does best for "jets", ships, or helicopters....dither.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/22051-f-35-purchase-cancelled;-cf-18-replacement-process-begins/

I can understand you are disappointed about losing a sale to your favorite neighbor, but your plane is just not good enough. Better luck next time though.

[Hoser360]

There is nothing new here....topic has been debated for years (see link). Other nations have procured new aircraft while Canada does what it always does best for "jets", ships, or helicopters....dither.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/22051-f-35-purchase-cancelled;-cf-18-replacement-process-begins/

Not exactly sure of what your point is here. Is it that no matter what party we are talking about the result will continue to remain dysfunctional regarding the procurement of military contracts (not to mention provincial energy contracts)? Helicopters, submarines, time and time again it seems that the end result is good money thrown after bad and it all seems to about political agendas rather than transparent realities.

[bush_cheney2004]

Not exactly sure of what your point is here. Is it that no matter what party we are talking about the result will continue to remain dysfunctional regarding the procurement of military contracts (not to mention provincial energy contracts)? Helicopters, submarines, time and time again it seems that the end result is good money thrown after bad and it all seems to about political agendas rather than transparent realities.

Yes....I mean exactly that. Canada's procurement process has been dysfunctional for decades, trying to satisfy contrary political agendas,

organized labour, provincial infighting, NATO/NORAD responsibilities, and shrinking defence budgets.

Even tiny Sweden has been able to do more...with far less.

[On Guard for Thee]

Yes....I mean exactly that. Canada's procurement process has been dysfunctional for decades, trying to satisfy contrary political agendas,

organized labour, provincial infighting, NATO/NORAD responsibilities, and shrinking defence budgets.

Even tiny Sweden has been able to do more...with far less.

That's our plan, do more with less. Or at least less wasted spending on a butterball.

[cybercoma]

Uhm... because this government understands how a military works, huh? Yeah, I'm sure Justin Trudeau learned a lot about it in his brief high school career.

Do you suppose the Minister of Defence knows a thing or two, given his experience?

[Derek 2.0]

Do you suppose the Minister of Defence knows a thing or two, given his experience?

With the proposed Hornet replacements, including the F-35? Next to nothing, but its mooted, because he holds a political position and receives advice from those within his department that do........the question is on the ability to act on said advice...to date, the results speak for themselves, in that Canada hasn't left the F-35 program, nor has the MND stated the F-35 won't be the replacement for our Hornets.

[Hoser360]

Yes....I mean exactly that. Canada's procurement process has been dysfunctional for decades, trying to satisfy contrary political agendas,

organized labour, provincial infighting, NATO/NORAD responsibilities, and shrinking defence budgets.

Even tiny Sweden has been able to do more...with far less.

Wow, I think we have agreed twice now. :-)

[cybercoma]

With the proposed Hornet replacements, including the F-35? Next to nothing, but its mooted, because he holds a political position and receives advice from those within his department that do........the question is on the ability to act on said advice...to date, the results speak for themselves, in that Canada hasn't left the F-35 program, nor has the MND stated the F-35 won't be the replacement for our Hornets.

i guess the point whizzed straight over your head, didn't it?

[Smallc]

The truth is, no one knows what exactly will happen. Now that the Liberals are the government, they can't make statements like 'we won't buy this' and not get sued.

[Derek 2.0]

i guess the point whizzed straight over your head, didn't it?

Did you have a point? You suggested the MND would know a thing or two on this subject based on his experience...........experience he doesn't have, but it doesn't mater because he has staff that do.

[cybercoma]

Did you have a point? You suggested the MND would know a thing or two on this subject based on his experience...........experience he doesn't have, but it doesn't mater because he has staff that do.

Argus took a shot at Trudeau's experience, whilst his MND has plenty of military experience. Meanwhile, Harper's experience was just as irrelevant as Trudeau's but so,was most of his MNDs too.

[Derek 2.0]

Argus took a shot at Trudeau's experience, whilst his MND has plenty of military experience. Meanwhile, Harper's experience was just as irrelevant as Trudeau's but so,was most of his MNDs too.

Fair enough, but the vast majority of politicians (of any stripe) have little experience on any given subject......again this reverts back to advice relayed by experts that do. What comes into question is judgment and the ability to act (or not) on said advice........on this file in the run-up to the election, Trudeau either received bad advice or chose not to listen to good advice......now, it appears the MND has received good advice and is acting on it to his credit....

In fairness, Trudeau and his inner circle might not have been privy to all the information on this file in the run-up to the election though.......which would explain their reversal now that they are in Government.

[On Guard for Thee]

Fair enough, but the vast majority of politicians (of any stripe) have little experience on any given subject......again this reverts back to advice relayed by experts that do. What comes into question is judgment and the ability to act (or not) on said advice........on this file in the run-up to the election, Trudeau either received bad advice or chose not to listen to good advice......now, it appears the MND has received good advice and is acting on it to his credit....

In fairness, Trudeau and his inner circle might not have been privy to all the information on this file in the run-up to the election though.......which would explain their reversal now that they are in Government.

I suspect the MND is acting to ensure the contracts to build bits and pieces of the F 35 keep going. And then of course when there is a proper comparison of the options, we can still back out.

[Argus]

That's exactly what I mean. Although Harper's decision to sole source when the turkey was already showing it's serious faults leaves you scratching your head.

Didn't the Liberals 'sole source' the tens of millions they spent on this project before the Tories even got elected?

Everyone honest knows that if the Liberals had gotten re-elected instead they'd have followed through and continued with the F-35. Since they wound up in opposition they seized on it in hopes of scoring points against the Tories. That's ALL this fuss has been about.

Edited February 26, 2016 by Argus

[On Guard for Thee]

Didn't the Liberals 'sole source' the tens of millions they spent on this project before the Tories even got elected?

Everyone honest knows that if the Liberals had gotten re-elected instead they'd have followed through and continued with the F-35. Since they wound up in opposition they seized on it in hopes of scoring points against the Tories. That's ALL this fuss has been about.

Canada invested to become an "informed partner" during the evaluation process. The decision to buy was made in 2010.

[Derek 2.0]

I suspect the MND is acting to ensure the contracts to build bits and pieces of the F 35 keep going. And then of course when there is a proper comparison of the options, we can still back out.

Are you suggesting that the GoC is gaming both Lockheed and our international partners? Aside from lawsuits and NAFTA challenges, such a con job would result in even further consequences relating to trade and security relationships with our allies, and the contracts that were awarded, being cancelled anyways...........The Liberal Government isn't that stupid.

At the end of the day, Trudeau and his inner team made several major mistakes resulting in unrealistic political promises during an election. Now as Government, with "new information" allowing reality to set in, they have walked back said promises and are attempting to triangulate a "Sunny way" forward with the F-35 and its footprint on Canadian industry.........That its the aircraft the RCAF requires is a happy accident.

[Derek 2.0]

Everyone honest knows that if the Liberals had gotten re-elected instead they'd have followed through and continued with the F-35.

Without a doubt, namely with their power base centered around Greater Montreal and the impact leaving the program would have on the Canadian aerospace industry, including many Montreal/Quebec centric companies.....

[Derek 2.0]

Canada invested to become an "informed partner" during the evaluation process. The decision to buy was made in 2010.

If that were true, why didn't Canada also get in on the Eurofighter consortium? Or seek contracts with the Rafale, Super Hornet or Gripen NG?

[Smallc]

Are you suggesting that the GoC is gaming both Lockheed and our international partners?

That's nonsensical. We made the payment. We don't have to buy anything or make any future payments.

[On Guard for Thee]

Are you suggesting that the GoC is gaming both Lockheed and our international partners? Aside from lawsuits and NAFTA challenges, such a con job would result in even further consequences relating to trade and security relationships with our allies, and the contracts that were awarded, being cancelled anyways...........The Liberal Government isn't that stupid.

At the end of the day, Trudeau and his inner team made several major mistakes resulting in unrealistic political promises during an election. Now as Government, with "new information" allowing reality to set in, they have walked back said promises and are attempting to triangulate a "Sunny way" forward with the F-35 and its footprint on Canadian industry.........That its the aircraft the RCAF requires is a happy accident.

Already been confirmed the contracts already in place will continue regardless of whether we buy or not. So don't set your hair on fire over lawsuits. And I don't think it's even close to having been shown the F 35 is what we need.

[On Guard for Thee]

If that were true, why didn't Canada also get in on the Eurofighter consortium? Or seek contracts with the Rafale, Super Hornet or Gripen NG?

You will have to refer that question to Mr. Chretien.

[Derek 2.0]

That's nonsensical. We made the payment. We don't have to buy anything or make any future payments.

No, what is nonsensical is the suggestion that this is grift on our allies by the GoC.

[Derek 2.0]

Already been confirmed the contracts already in place will continue regardless of whether we buy or not. So don't set your hair on fire over lawsuits. And I don't think it's even close to having been shown the F 35 is what we need.

The contracts that are in place will remain, contracts that end through ~2017-2019, as the program exits the development and low rate production phase and enters full rate production.

As to lawsuits, that would be dependent on the results of the competition, both from Lockheed's perspective and those of the other entrants into the competition.

[Derek 2.0]

You will have to refer that question to Mr. Chretien.

What, you won't speak for him, but you'll suggest this government is partaking in a massive con job?

[On Guard for Thee]

The contracts that are in place will remain, contracts that end through ~2017-2019, as the program exits the development and low rate production phase and enters full rate production.

As to lawsuits, that would be dependent on the results of the competition, both from Lockheed's perspective and those of the other entrants into the competition.

Pretty hard to successfully sue someone who backs away from a product that fails to meet it's performance specs. as often as this thing.