Donald vs Hillary

[Smoke]

You mean the smart people?

Are you implying you're some sort of "elite"?

[Smoke]

There is some of that, but I think his success is mainly due to the political class ignoring long held grievances, mainly about the lack of economic support to the industrial heartland which has been hit so badly by technological change and imports, and the widespread resentment over the massive illegal immigration which has been going on for so long.

Now you're talkin'.

[segnosaur]

There is some of that, but I think his success is mainly due to the political class ignoring long held grievances, mainly about the lack of economic support to the industrial heartland which has been hit so badly by technological change and imports, and the widespread resentment over the massive illegal immigration which has been going on for so long.

Now you're talkin'.

Of course, even if Trump's success is due to certain problems being ignored, it doesn't mean that Trump is actually correct on any of these issues.

For example, rather than ripping up trade deals that benefit the country as a whole (even if some areas are negatively affected) he could propose keeping the trade deals in place and giving help specifically targeted at the affected areas.

[TimG]

It's also massively hypocritical, since it implies that there shouldn't be criticism of people's POVs.

Actually, it is the exact opposite. I am arguing that the should be criticisms of POVs based on the merits. Simply screaming "racist" or "anti-science" without addressing the substance of the argument is not criticism. It is an attempt to label the argument as "not worth considering".

More importantly, your "leftist elites" BS is completely wrong and easily refuted by the number of conservatives who vocally oppose Trump themselves.

Again, not relevant. The issue is how leftists poisoned the political debate by attacking all reasonable people with inflammatory rhetoric. This created an environment where Trump could dismiss accusations when he actually did engage in racist stero-typing or support for anti-vaxers as "political correctness".

The story about the "boy who cried wolf" is quite relevant. In this case, Trump is the real wolf that people ignored because of the leftist cries. If the wolf is defeated it will be because of the large swath of moderate conservatives holding their noses and voting for Hillary.

Edited August 12, 2016 by TimG

[Argus]

Of course, even if Trump's success is due to certain problems being ignored, it doesn't mean that Trump is actually correct on any of these issues.

For example, rather than ripping up trade deals that benefit the country as a whole (even if some areas are negatively affected) he could propose keeping the trade deals in place and giving help specifically targeted at the affected areas.

Oh absolutely. First, it doesn't seem to me that he cares about these problems anyway. He has, after all, contributed to them, and never shown an ounce of concern for such people.

Second, his remedies are idiotic, and likely to make things worse. There's nothing in there about helping the industrial heartland, the rust belt. Instead he wants to cut taxes on rich people. He blames free trade but technology has had a far greater impact on killing jobs among manufacturers. All that automation, you know, means factories need far fewer workers than they used to to produce the same amount of goods.

And his idea of a wall, while sentimentally attractive, wouldn't work on its own, and would be very expensive. Nor is Mexico going to pay for it. I do, though, think they should do more to protect their southern border and more actively expel illegal immigrants who commit crimes.

[taxme]

Those experts include people involved with the state department, with trade negotiations, and the intelligence community. So yeah, I think many (most) people would be considered "experts", or at least more knowledgable than your average voter..

And your proof of that is what?

Actually, the experts in question all spent at least some time working for Republican administrations. Yet despite the fact that they worked republicans in the past, they have all decided that they don't want the current republican nominee to become president. That should tell you something.

And lets apply occam's razor here... you claim that they were paid "big bucks" by the democratic party. (Without proof I might add.) First of all, what exactly does that say about Republicans in general if so many were able to be bribed? And if the Democrats were running around offering all this bribe money, how come no other security experts came forward and said "they tried to bribe me"? Did each and every person they approached agree to their bribe? That's some rather impressive selection there.

Of course they're trying to frighten away the voters for voting for Trump. That's because they see his policies and the way he conducts himself as detrimental to the U.S.

The issue isn't whether its right to "frighten voters" (whatever that means, since any attempt to point out faults in one candidate might be considered "frightening"). The issue is whether they have a valid reason for taking that stance. Based on the experience they have and the way Drumph has presented himself, they probably have a point. There is a difference between making false allegations in order to appeal only to fear (as Drumph often does... "Obama is a Muslim! Hillary is coming for your guns") and actually examining the policies and background of a candidate and coming to the conclusion "this is something to avoid".

Do you still believe in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy? The system is rigged folks by and for the elite globalists and they get to choose as to what you read and hear and learn. They keep all of us peasants on puppet strings because the majority of those lemming puppets believe their lies, and support them while the rest of us who don't have to suffer because of it. At least Trump has acknowledged that the system is rigged. What more do you want? Jam on it?

But yet as usual the lemming puppets prefer to still listen to the corporate globalist elite main scream media rather than to someone like Trump who says it like it is. Have people gone deaf and dumb and are unable to think for themselves? It would appear as though they like the media that we have around because then that media can do their thinking for them, and they can carry on with business as usual without having to upset their lives, and maybe have to get involved.

Do you really think that those so-called experts you mentioned above like the State department, and the trade negotiators, and the intelligence community have your interest in mind. Come on, really? They are the ones keeping you in the dark about what really goes on behind our backs. They are a part of the rigged political system, as Trump called it, and you better soon wake up to that fact. What more can a guy like Trump tell you?

[taxme]

Well if the elites think he's bad, then that must mean he's good!

-k

Yup, when the elites and their main scream liberal media lap dogs attack anyone, then that person must be the good man/woman person, and that they really do have something to say that the elites don't want we the peasants to hear or know about. In regards to Trump he is always being attacked by the stunned media. It's endless. Hillary has much evil tucked away in her back pack but the lame duck media seem to not want to report or bring up anything bad about her. I guess that Hillary must be the elite globalists girl, eh? The system is rigged folks. I wonder why? I guess that if Trump becomes President a lot of the elite will be running for cover. They will probably have to end up getting down on their knees, and kissing Trumps butt and beg for forgiveness. Please don't send me to jail.

[TimG]

This analogy made me laugh because it is scarily apt:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/07/27/the-logic-of-voting-for-a-lesser-evil/?tid=a_inl&utm_term=.dac6bcc3fd1a

Imagine an election where the only options are Queen Cersei from Game of Thrones, and Sauron, the Dark Lord from Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings. If Cersei wins, she will kill many innocent people, and oppress others. But she will leave much of the population more or less alone (as long as they don’t openly oppose her or threaten her family in any way). If Sauron wins, he will kill far more innocent people, and make the survivors his slaves.

[taxme]

Why is it that the lunatic fringe that support Trump always refer to the elite as an enemy, yet don't bat an eye when most of his economic proposals are a shopping list for billionaire elites?

The last few Presidents that the elite have put into power have put in economic programs that have helped many more Americans become billionaires, including the elite that have become bigger billionaires. Trump had nothing to do with that. So, what's your point?

And why is that anybody who supports Trump have to be considered a bit on the lunatic fringe side? Who are you to call me a lunatic anyway? Just because I happen to like and support Trump, and there are millions more who do also, are deemed by you to somehow be on the lunatic fringe side. Thanks to Trump telling people that the system is rigged, and the people who call others lunatics, better go take a look at themselves in the mirror. There they may be just looking at one. Hey, you never know.

So, why am I a lunatic because I support Trump? Over to you.

Edited August 12, 2016 by taxme

[taxme]

Of course, even if Trump's success is due to certain problems being ignored, it doesn't mean that Trump is actually correct on any of these issues.

For example, rather than ripping up trade deals that benefit the country as a whole (even if some areas are negatively affected) he could propose keeping the trade deals in place and giving help specifically targeted at the affected areas.

Trade deals only make the elite globalists people richer. Trade deals are there to help the one world order movers and shakers get wealthier while the peasants are offered a tiny share of the profits. Trump is right and he is a billionaire. He wants to rip up all trade deals because Trump feels that they are not good for America or the average American. Wouldn't Trump be better off with trade deals then without? Trump feels that he will do fine without them around. Are you able to answer that?

[?Impact]

At least Trump has acknowledged that the system is rigged.

...and his qualifications for being President are?

[taxme]

...and his qualifications for being President are?

Trump telling the American people that the system is rigged should be enough qualification for Trump to become President. Hillary supports that rigged system. I guess that is her qualifications for becoming President.

And just what are Hillary's qualifications for becoming President anyway? I await anxiously for your reply?

[Argus]

The last few Presidents that the elite have put into power have put in economic programs that have helped many more Americans become billionaires, including the elite that have become bigger billionaires. Trump had nothing to do with that. So, what's your point?

Um, Trump has been a member of the elites since birth.

[?Impact]

And just what are Hillary's qualifications for becoming President anyway?

I'm not a supporter of Hillary. It seems however your criteria is very low, so you would accept anybody. Time to look at what would disqualify an individual. I think a compulsive liar would be the last choice for President for any critical thinking person.

[Smoke]

I think a compulsive liar would be the last choice for President for any critical thinking person.

So that eliminates both Trump and Clinton. Now who?

[betsy]

I'm not a supporter of Hillary. It seems however your criteria is very low, so you would accept anybody

If you're left with two to choose from - Hillary or Trump - who else is there?

Edited August 13, 2016 by betsy

[dre]

This analogy made me laugh because it is scarily apt:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/07/27/the-logic-of-voting-for-a-lesser-evil/?tid=a_inl&utm_term=.dac6bcc3fd1a

Hahaha, thats pretty good

[cybercoma]

If you're left with two to choose from - Hillary or Trump - who else is there?

Stein and Johnson are on the ballot. Not to mention America allows write ins. Edited August 13, 2016 by cybercoma

[taxme]

I'm not a supporter of Hillary. It seems however your criteria is very low, so you would accept anybody. Time to look at what would disqualify an individual. I think a compulsive liar would be the last choice for President for any critical thinking person.

I certainly would not vote for Hillary as my President. I would pick anybody who tells the truth. I happen to like what Trump has to say, and by all indications he is telling the truth. What should disqualify someone is if they are nothing but a compulsive liar, and according to Trump, Hillary is just that, not to forget that Trump always throws in crooked Hillary also. When you get a guy like Trump trying to tell the sheeple out there the truth that the system is rigged against them, and Hillary is a liar, the sheeple still will not take the hint, and continue to attack and hate Trump who is saying it as it is.The sheeple are their own worse enemy. Sad indeed.

[Guest]

I certainly would not vote for Hillary as my President. I would pick anybody who tells the truth. I happen to like what Trump has to say, and by all indications he is telling the truth. What should disqualify someone is if they are nothing but a compulsive liar, and according to Trump, Hillary is just that, not to forget that Trump always throws in crooked Hillary also. When you get a guy like Trump trying to tell the sheeple out there the truth that the system is rigged against them, and Hillary is a liar, the sheeple still will not take the hint, and continue to attack and hate Trump who is saying it as it is.The sheeple are their own worse enemy. Sad indeed.

Yet, you have been pointed to Politifact where they actually fact check statements made by politicians and candidates. You have been made aware that Trump is almost the least honest political figure. I think only Ben Carson was less honest than Trump. At the same time Hillary was one of the most honest. Why do you cling to this view when it has been proven wrong?

Comparison Chart

Here is a link to the Politifact site: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/lists/people/fact-checking-2016-gop-presidential-candidates/

Edited August 14, 2016 by Guest

[betsy]

Stein and Johnson are on the ballot. Not to mention America allows write ins.

What makes you think they don't have skeletons in their closet? That they aren't liars as well?

Right now, they're not so scrutinized because they've got no chance of going anywhere.

It's either Hillary or Trump! Those are the only choices.

Why waste your vote? So you vote for the unknown just to make a statement! Statement to who? And, who cares?

You might just as well not vote at all, if your vote wouldn't amount to anything anyway. Why waste your time?

I like the platform of Trump. It remains to be seen if he'll be just another double-talking, two-faced politician.

Edited August 14, 2016 by betsy

[cybercoma]

Not wasting my vote. I'm not American. I'm just telling you that you are wrong when you say Trump and Clinton are the only choices. They're not. A,ericans will vote for whomever they want. Right now, more than 10% claim they'll vote for Johnson.

[betsy]

Not wasting my vote. I'm not American. I'm just telling you that you are wrong when you say Trump and Clinton are the only choices. They're not. A,ericans will vote for whomever they want. Right now, more than 10% claim they'll vote for Johnson.

They are the only choices! If you want to make your vote count!

Voting for the other two would be as good as putting the name Cybercoma on the ballot!

Those 10% don't know squat about Johnson!

It's a stupid "statement" to make when you say, " I'm voting for someone I hardly know....because I don't want to vote for liars." What makes them think Johnson is not a liar?

Edited August 14, 2016 by betsy

[GostHacked]

Not wasting my vote. I'm not American. I'm just telling you that you are wrong when you say Trump and Clinton are the only choices. They're not. A,ericans will vote for whomever they want. Right now, more than 10% claim they'll vote for Johnson.

They can't vote for whoever they want, they get to pick from the ones that gets put on the front line. The American people do not get to chose who is president, they only get to chose between TWO candidates. Why does America hate freedom?

[Argus]

I certainly would not vote for Hillary as my President. I would pick anybody who tells the truth. I happen to like what Trump has to say, and by all indications he is telling the truth.

WHEN has he told the truth about anything? He lies about his past, about his income, his charity donations, his history, and that's without even getting into his lies about policy - what there is of it he's aware of. He's also lying when he says he cares about the poor and middle class, I assure you. He's never shown them the slightest consideration, never expressed the least concern for the plight of anyone but himself.