Argus Posted January 4, 2016 Report Posted January 4, 2016 Sure it does. It had more time to evolve and moderate. Islam in 600 years from now will be much more moderate too. Romans became Christians at the end and helped to spread it. I don't care what Islam will be in 600 years. I care about its influence on the society in which I live. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 4, 2016 Report Posted January 4, 2016 (edited) I don't believe this is correct. Where did that evidence come from??. Well, here, among other places. http://www.macdonaldlaurier.ca/much-good-news-and-some-worrying-results-in-new-study-of-muslim-public-opinion-in-canada/ In findings that will reverberate in both immigration and security policy, support for extremism was found to be just as high among Muslims born in Canada or other industrialized countries as among those coming from oppressive dictatorships, and "the most radical political views tended to be expressed by relatively secular people, often equipped with higher education in the social sciences, while devout Muslims were sometimes the most articulate advocates for Canada and democracy." Or here: http://www.environicsinstitute.org/uploads/institute-projects/focus%20canada%202006-4%20report.pdf Canadians believe strongly that respect for newcomers’ traditions must not compromise gender equality in Canada. Canadian Muslims are more likely to believe that Canada should accommodate traditional gender roles. Majorities of both Canadian Muslims and the population-at-large believe the sense of Islamic identity in Canada is growing. Just over half of Canadian Muslims believe Sharia law should be recognized in Canada, including a clear majority of Muslim women. Edited January 4, 2016 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Rue Posted January 4, 2016 Report Posted January 4, 2016 The age of the religion has nothing to do with how peaceful it is, and Jesus wasn't exactly worshipped by Romans lol. It probably does. Its not the only reason of course, environmental conditions, inter-action with other religions, have a lot to do with it, but to write of time is foolish. We have enough evidence from anthropology alone, that one social science keeping in mind they are all inexact that the longer a society has more time to develop the more likely it can learn to repress its primal tendencies. You do have a point if you say its not the only factor. Its far more complex. I come from a school of thought that places geographic conditions at the top. I believe climate and weather and the geographic features of the land you live on are the most important factors in a human's development next to their own genetic predispositions and I believe one's environment and genetics dictate their religion myself. I believe religion just reflects the collective beliefs of the society in question. In the case of the Middle East I do not believe colonialism as the trendy leftists on this forum do, is the reason for the strife and violence in Islamic society in the ME. It certainly did not help placing competing and feuding tribes in the same artificial colonial borders for the sake of oil no, but Muslim tribes or cells were fighting one another since they initiated their religion. A lot of it has to do with a lack of central organization through institutions. To this day that reflects in the politics which illustrates the thousands of cells of organizations each with its own leader. The only way Islamic societies have been ruled is by dictators. Its sort of akin to Yugoslavia not being able to remain a nation without Tito. Without one strong central leader its thousands of leaders disintegrate. That lack of institutional organization is exasperated by the lack of separation between religion and state Sharia law doesn't create separated institutions of justice, government and elected politicians. It tends to just have councils ruling other councils and so military dictatorships emerge as the only viable government that has any temporary duration based on fear. Corupt monarchies propped by oil syndicates are a relatively modern invention and not doing well. The Gulf states and Saudi Arabia all face internal revolution. They have small elite wealthy cliques running nations totally dependent on cheap slave Muslims from Africa and Asia or Pakistan-Bangladesh and that does not build a cohesive society. So its complex and I concede its not the only reason but if you expect trendy liberals on this forum to acknowledge what you say have a good laugh. One of them scolds me if I call Islamic society Islamic when criticizing it, I am being unfair. Its like a Monty Python skit. I do think one of the major reasons Christian societies evolved as they have now is given the fact the holocaust is not that new in terms of historical time periods, is that its Christian institutions whether they be churches of governments had in place an ability for its people to engage in criticism. We could argue a great deal of Christian thought remains orthodox or fundamental, but its also true more of its followers read and question and I believe reading, the ability to read for one self and not depend on a clergy person is a huge factor in religious development. Its ironic but look at the figure of Jesus in Christianity. It is/he is the ultimate symbol in rebellion against centralized organized thought teaching people God is within one's own soul, one can pray and get in touch with God by meditating. The central institutionalized control over thought by the Priesthood was challenged as corrupted and out of touch. Jesus was in all intents and purposes a revolutionary against centralized governments and structures. If however all behaviour was done on an individual behaviour societies could not work. They would implode. So when reading the Gospels or Old Testment one can not take lessons out of context to other lessons and so what emerges in Christianity is really not just revolution but finding a balance between too much and too little organization that can accommodate all people-its a sort of try to be more democratic because Jewish society was damn unfair-it tried to rule by councils and use fairness but institutions would crop up full of corruption. Christianity was a natural progression to Judaism questioning corruption. It had to happen just as before it Reform Jews questioned Orthodox ones and now reform Christians challenge the old orthodox line. In Islam there are progressive elements just beginning to develop. Some of the leaders of their progressive movements are actually living in Canada However when we saw for example Ismaili Islam develop, mainstream Islam condemned it as corrupted Western nonsense and called its leader the Aga Khan a playboy and rich corrupted sob. I am not here to question his personal life only to talk about their sect's beliefs and they certainly are progressive to the point of being very similar to progressive Christianity and Judaism. The Amidyah sect comes out of the same Islam and rejected violence as an interpretation of the Koran. So it has its progressive cells but they are not as plentiful as wit Judeo Christian society no-wil that change, who the hell knows. If rabid terrorists continue to monopolize their society, no. Terrorism could not continue to control Muslim Society without cooperation of Muslim clergy. That is a fact so I argue until mainstream Islam rejects terrorism openly, Muslim society will not progress. Its not at the stage it can. Look at the closet Muslims on this forum. They can't admit they are Muslim let alone handle criticism of Islam and they pose as progressives fighting colonialism. Finally getting back to what you say, I believe your analogy is simple but on point. You put a weed in a garden of flowers we know what happens. Not all plant forms can live in harmony and pretending a weed is compatible with tulips is idiotic. Well we do have Trudeau now shoving Tulips up his nose and having the toad man John McCallum plant dandilions in their tulip patches. You won't convince them to change. Remember Trudeau is firmly for legalizing weed man. Quote
WestCanMan Posted January 4, 2016 Report Posted January 4, 2016 Sure it does. It had more time to evolve and moderate. Islam in 600 years from now will be much more moderate too. Romans became Christians at the end and helped to spread it. Islam isn't evolving at all. There is no new testament (the Haidith was not a step fwd), the women are still second class citizens, they still flex on any culture smaller than them every chance they get, their governments still have laws against atheism, their governments still commit genocide and allow the expulsion of non-muslims, they are still running around playing Mahommed and beheading people, they still consider it legal to rape women not wearing a burqa, and most of all they still put their religion ahead of human lives. Stop thinking that muslims are moderate just because of the way they act in areas where they have just immigrated and are a small minority. That's completely stupid - when the smallest kid in class doesn't pick on the biggest kid in class it doesn't prove anything about their character. The only way to judge a human/group is by the way they act when they have power. Think about what happens in areas all over the world where the Muslims have the majority. The same thing that has happened for over 1,000 years. At what point do you start to see a pattern? Patterns are important. Eg, when the days keep getting shorter and it is getting colder outside it doesn't mean that we are approaching eternal darkness. After Dec 21 the days start getting longer again. That's valuable information. Patterns can be used to study more than just the weather. People who were drunk on 30 days in November will probably get drunk on as many days as they can in December too. If a person like that spends a day in the hospital with no access to liquor and they manage to stay sober that's not considered proof that they have quit drinking. Muslims in Asia and Africa are on the exact same path as in the middle east. It's not the exception to the rule. Women without burqas in muslim areas are targets for abuse and rape worldwide. Quote If CNN gave an infinite number of monkeys an infinite number of typewriters, leftists would believe everything they typed. If you missed something on the Cultist Narrative Network, don't worry, the dolt horde here will make sure everyone hears it. "If it didn't come from CNN, it's heresy!" - leftist "intellectuals"
Big Guy Posted January 4, 2016 Report Posted January 4, 2016 Islam isn't evolving at all. There is no new testament (the Haidith was not a step fwd), the women are still second class citizens ... Muslims in Asia and Africa are on the exact same path as in the middle east. It's not the exception to the rule. Women without burqas in muslim areas are targets for abuse and rape worldwide. So what do you suggest Canadians do about it? Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Smallc Posted January 4, 2016 Report Posted January 4, 2016 Which other group is actively pursuing mass murder? Give recent examples. There doesn't seem to be many people in Canada actively pursuing it. Quote
Big Guy Posted January 4, 2016 Report Posted January 4, 2016 Which other group is actively pursuing mass murder? Give recent examples.So following your views, Muslims are mass murderers as a group. What do you suggest that Canadians do about it? There are 1.2 billion of them. There are 940,000 in Canada which comprises 2.8% of the Canadian population. What do you suggest that we do to the Muslims in Canada? Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Argus Posted January 4, 2016 Report Posted January 4, 2016 What I was saying is that not only muslims become mass murderers (or in the case of the Toronto 18, potential mass murderers). But mass murderers usually don't come in groups unless they're religious zealots. Now according to a survey I posted earlier today 94% of Muslims in Canada consider their religion as very important to them, which I figure is a lot higher than you'd get if you surveyed Canadians who were baptized. So let's just say that the Muslim community is far more likely to give rise to the type of religious sentiment which would inspire violent group behavior than others within Canada. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
CITIZEN_2015 Posted January 4, 2016 Report Posted January 4, 2016 Islam isn't evolving at all. There is no new testament (the Haidith was not a step fwd), the women are still second class citizens, they still flex on any culture smaller than them every chance they get, their governments still have laws against atheism, their governments still commit genocide and allow the expulsion of non-muslims, they are still running around playing Mahommed and beheading people, they still consider it legal to rape women not wearing a burqa, and most of all they still put their religion ahead of human lives. Stop thinking that muslims are moderate just because of the way they act in areas where they have just immigrated and are a small minority. That's completely stupid - when the smallest kid in class doesn't pick on the biggest kid in class it doesn't prove anything about their character. The only way to judge a human/group is by the way they act when they have power. Think about what happens in areas all over the world where the Muslims have the majority. The same thing that has happened for over 1,000 years. At what point do you start to see a pattern? Patterns are important. Eg, when the days keep getting shorter and it is getting colder outside it doesn't mean that we are approaching eternal darkness. After Dec 21 the days start getting longer again. That's valuable information. Patterns can be used to study more than just the weather. People who were drunk on 30 days in November will probably get drunk on as many days as they can in December too. If a person like that spends a day in the hospital with no access to liquor and they manage to stay sober that's not considered proof that they have quit drinking. Muslims in Asia and Africa are on the exact same path as in the middle east. It's not the exception to the rule. Women without burqas in muslim areas are targets for abuse and rape worldwide. You have made some very false claims/statements without any evidence or proof. I do acknowledge that they are some backward people in certain part of the muslim world calling themselves muslims who do what you say in your post but painting everyone and every muslim everywhere with the same brush is just false as I said. Every thing is evolving. Remember 600 years ago Christians were stoning to death too for adultery and other crimes and rape women as well for various reasons. But it has evolved since then. As for Islam, a hundred years ago even it was unthinkable to see women without hejab in any muslim country or listen to music or be in a so called adulterous relationship (boyfriend/girlfriend) but all above is happening in many muslim parts now. It was also unthinkable to see women in high positions in muslim countries but again that too is happening in many muslim countries too. Quote
eyeball Posted January 4, 2016 Report Posted January 4, 2016 Remember 600 years ago Christians were stoning to death too for adultery and other crimes and rape women as well for various reasons. Christians were killing little kids within the living memory of people in my neighbourhood. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
GostHacked Posted January 5, 2016 Report Posted January 5, 2016 Christians were killing little kids within the living memory of people in my neighbourhood. Not to mention what the Catholic Church has done to children. Quote
Argus Posted January 5, 2016 Report Posted January 5, 2016 Not to mention what the Catholic Church has done to children. Blown them up? Slaughtered their families and entire village? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
GostHacked Posted January 5, 2016 Report Posted January 5, 2016 Blown them up? Slaughtered their families and entire village? Of course nothing terrible like that, just rampant systemic cover up of the rampant systemic molestation. Quote
Argus Posted January 5, 2016 Report Posted January 5, 2016 .Remember 600 years ago Christians were stoning to death too for adultery and other crimes and rape women as well for various reasons. Well, you know what? I wouldn't want to be around those Christians. And I sure wouldn't be inviting them to come and live next door to me. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 5, 2016 Report Posted January 5, 2016 (edited) Of course nothing terrible like that, just rampant systemic cover up of the rampant systemic molestation. Shocker! Where have we ever seen that before!? Oh wait, the public school system? The police department? Parents? Everyone? Society ignored the issue. It didn't want to know about it. And btw, know where they still don't want to hear anything about child molesting? In the Muslim world. Edited January 5, 2016 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
CITIZEN_2015 Posted January 5, 2016 Report Posted January 5, 2016 Well, you know what? I wouldn't want to be around those Christians. And I sure wouldn't be inviting them to come and live next door to me. No worries they are all dead since 600 years ago. My point was religions are changng/evolving with time and Christianity is 600 years ahead. No one said bring over the terrorists and religious extremists. But don't shut the door on the entire group because they are extremists among them. Because there are extremists among all races/religions. Quote
Guest Posted January 5, 2016 Report Posted January 5, 2016 . Because there are extremists among all races/religions. Yeah, are they all the same, or are any of them worse than others when it comes to manifesting that extremism? Quote
WestCanMan Posted January 5, 2016 Report Posted January 5, 2016 600 years ago the Christians were ahead of the muslims in every way, and they always will be in terms of religious tolerance and humanitarianism. That's never going to go away. There is too much emphasis on intolerance in the hadith and the quran. The old battles and the hatred aren't things of the past to people who absorb those ancient texts, the quarrels are new and important to everyone who reads them for the first time. Sure there are failed attempts at creeping towards progressive societies in muslim countries, big deal. There's still not a muslim country on earth that's safe to live in for anyone else. Safe for the next 6 months maybe, but those areas are too volatile. Look at Iran and Saudi Arabia today. Quote If CNN gave an infinite number of monkeys an infinite number of typewriters, leftists would believe everything they typed. If you missed something on the Cultist Narrative Network, don't worry, the dolt horde here will make sure everyone hears it. "If it didn't come from CNN, it's heresy!" - leftist "intellectuals"
Argus Posted January 5, 2016 Report Posted January 5, 2016 Yeah, are they all the same, or are any of them worse than others when it comes to manifesting that extremism? Seem the same to me. Hey, you going to the gay pride parade in Tehran this year? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Guest Posted January 5, 2016 Report Posted January 5, 2016 Seem the same to me. Hey, you going to the gay pride parade in Tehran this year? No, I understand it's at a rooftop party... Quote
Argus Posted January 5, 2016 Report Posted January 5, 2016 No, I understand it's at a rooftop party... Well maybe next year in Mecca... Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Big Guy Posted January 5, 2016 Report Posted January 5, 2016 Lots of the anti-Muslim voices here seem to be sure of a problem. What do you suggest we do? Do you suggest that we bar them from Canada, or put them all (1.6 billion) into a camp, or send them into space or ... Surely you must have solutions for the problem you appear to believe in. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Guest Posted January 5, 2016 Report Posted January 5, 2016 Lots of the anti-Muslim voices here seem to be sure of a problem. What do you suggest we do? Do you suggest that we bar them from Canada, or put them all (1.6 billion) into a camp, or send them into space or ... Surely you must have solutions for the problem you appear to believe in. Are you talking about the last couple of posts? I suppose increased human rights for homosexuals in some Middle Eastern countries would go some way towards solving that problem. What would be your solution? Quote
Big Guy Posted January 5, 2016 Report Posted January 5, 2016 (edited) Are you talking about the last couple of posts? I suppose increased human rights for homosexuals in some Middle Eastern countries would go some way towards solving that problem. What would be your solution? So Canada is supposed to impose increased human rights in some Middle East countries? Just how would you do that? I asked for solutions to the problem you appear to believe in. I do not believe that Islam or Muslims are a problem. Religious extremism has always been a problem and we have survived it. If there is anything we could do, I would assume it would be to NOT create more religious extremists. How do we do that ? Read all the posts on this site about how we are creating religious extremists and suicide bombers them through our participation in those civil wars in the Middle East. Edited January 5, 2016 by Big Guy Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Guest Posted January 5, 2016 Report Posted January 5, 2016 So Canada is supposed to impose increased human rights in some Middle East countries? Just how would you do that? I asked for solutions to the problem you appear to believe in. I do not believe that Islam or Muslims are a problem. Religious extremism has always been a problem and we have survived it. If there is anything we could do, I would assume it would be to NOT create more religious extremists. How do we do that ? Read all the posts on this site about how we are creating religious extremists and suicide bombers them through our participation in those civil wars in the Middle East. I notice that you have now appointed yourself spokesperson for the "we" group. Congratulations on your self appointment. Of course, an awful lot of people have not survived religious extremism. I'm glad you and your group have, up to now. I have too, but I have some sympathy with those who have not. I doubt we create many religious extremists and suicide bombers through our participation in civil wars in the Middle East. A few, maybe. I think the vast majority of them are going to be around anyway. Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.