War on Terrorism: Getting past the semantics

[Rue]

SRV I again say I will debate you until doomsday but I very much respect how you come on this board, enunciate your positions with clarity and admit you have no first hand experience. That admission makes you humble and credible.

I actually deep inside applaud your pacifism I hope you know that and why it eats at my stomach from what I have seen.

One of the reasons I defer to Army Guy on this forum at all times is because of his service. All he has to do is tell me to shut up and I would.

I just wanted to say I like your show of respect to him. Thank you. People like you just show it because you are decent. Completely wrong about everything, but decent. Lol. People like me believe it or not as grim as we are appreciate people like you who still pray. I respect that. I do. Its not my place to pray only clean up things. I don't get to pray. My lot in life has a different destiny. There's people who negotiate with words, others who preserve the precious earth from blowing up like Army Guy until the negotiators talk, and then there are my people, the street cleaners.

I speak from the perspective of a street cleaner. I just see a mess on the street and clean it. I didn't put it in bags labeled Arab and Israeli, Jew or Muslim.

I see a kid with a bomb, a head detached, I don't have ideology or platitudes. Just a mop. Please understand that. I may disagree with some of your views but not your desire for peace. Let's just say some of the people making the mess you have not yet met. Maybe you never will. If you don't trust me its no big deal. They are small men, pathetically small, unoriginal, cowardly and without any original thought. That's the true profile of a terrorist, a very very small man who can make a mess.

[eyeball]

SRV I again say I will debate you until doomsday

Where are the launch codes when you really need them?

[Army Guy]

Yes I trust in our form of democracy, it works...but what your forgetting Eyeball is those elected officials have at there finger tips mountains of info that are not available to the ordinary citizen....it is not from the intra net of media, but from experts in their field....My disdain for them is some of the time they decide what is in the best interest for the country, by listening to public opinion instead of the facts they have been presented....plus instead of presenting the facts they can in a clear manner, to educate those that want to be...but not all Canadians want to be....you talk to the average joe, each and everyone of them will give you a different story of world events going on today....some of it is right but most is not.....I want to put the trust of my life into someone that is going to have a lot more facts than the average joe.....you don't have to like it....but then again it is not your life....

[eyeball]

Yes I trust in our form of democracy, it works...but what your forgetting Eyeball is those elected officials have at there finger tips mountains of info that are not available to the ordinary citizen

Okay, so if they knew when to put you into combat and when to pull you out what are you crying about then? Whatever happened to just doing and dying like you're told?

...but then again it is not your life....

It could be now that Canada has so determinedly parked itself in harm's way.

[Topaz]

History may show that the military of the NATO countries were victims of a situation to invade, destroy and take over the Middle-East Region. Remember the Ontario PC member that said if u want something, create a crisis to get the job done? In the ME, one can't trust any government involved in this war because they usually stab each other in the backs down the road. I don't think Canada should be there, unless we are helping the people get their lives back. The US started this, its their war, I just hate to see the soldiers used by their government, for the wrong reasons.

[Army Guy]

I'm not crying about anything....we were pulled out of Afghanistan because of ill informed public pressure....we talked about this already....you know the same people you think knows better than the government.....and yet could not make a decision if their lives depended on it....because nobody cares to get informed like they should....poggy check, beer store and hockey night in Canada , if we had messed with any of those Afghanistan would be over in a week....

Come on eyeball really, in harms way....lots of terrorist in BC is there..i'm willing to bet it is the same as it was 10 years ago....Harms way in deed....I see it it in a different light, our nation helped out another in it's time of need....but then again your not the sharing type of guy are you....

[Army Guy]

Topaz: don't use the soldiers as an excuse , it is not fair to them....remember it was the soldiers that wanted to stay and finish the job....

tell eyeball why you think this is a bad and horrible mistake....

[eyeball]

I'm not crying about anything....we were pulled out of Afghanistan because of ill informed public pressure....we talked about this already....you know the same people you think knows better than the government....

What ill information did the public pressure the government with again? Why didn't the government counter that with it's mountains of facts and experts?

Why did the government listen to the people at all if what you said is true?

[GostHacked]

I'm not crying about anything....we were pulled out of Afghanistan because of ill informed public pressure....we talked about this already....you know the same people you think knows better than the government.....and yet could not make a decision if their lives depended on it....because nobody cares to get informed like they should....poggy check, beer store and hockey night in Canada , if we had messed with any of those Afghanistan would be over in a week....

Come on eyeball really, in harms way....lots of terrorist in BC is there..i'm willing to bet it is the same as it was 10 years ago....Harms way in deed....I see it it in a different light, our nation helped out another in it's time of need....but then again your not the sharing type of guy are you....

You mentioned that there is a pile of information the government had/has that the public is not aware of. And that non-publicized information is what got us into Afghanistan. Then you blame the public for putting pressure on the government to bring our troops home based on an ill informed public. Who is really to blame for this situation?

[kactus]

You mentioned that there is a pile of information the government had/has that the public is not aware of. And that non-publicized information is what got us into Afghanistan. Then you blame the public for putting pressure on the government to bring our troops home based on an ill informed public. Who is really to blame for this situation?

That is usually the case...The ordinary tax payer will just pick up the bill.

[Rue]

Where are the launch codes when you really need them?

Hah. Actually on a more serious note all it takes is one fool with a dirty bomb or a germ these days. I believe if such a scenario occurred its most likely to start by an isolated attack that escalates through a series of confused, fragmented responses which is why its crucial all governments maintain systems to try deal with panic reaction policies.

Say what you want and knock on wood. so far the doomsday scenario of aircraft banging into each other, etc., has not happened as was predicted by some. Certainly the risk is there of a US-Russian collision, etc., don't get me wrong but maybe the air war is far more organized than you are I know. It seems pretty chaotic and futile on one level but maybe its not on another. We don't know the real story on the ground other than it appears the whole ME appears to want to leave for Europe.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Rue

[GostHacked]

That is usually the case...The ordinary tax payer will just pick up the bill.

Indeed we will, even when we have no say in how our military is being used, we are still on the hook for paying up the bill. We need to go to war, but we can't know the finer details, trust us they say.

[Army Guy]

Gosthacked:

I did mention that the government has masses of info available to it that Joe public does not have access to, that has always been the way , a fact we as citizens know very well, that our government does not share all of it for security reasons or need to know.....I did not say they were not forth coming as to why we were in Afghanistan, they clearly spelled that out, they clear spelled out our mission , our role in that mission, including costing, after action reports on battles, etc you name it they released it....all Joe citizen has to do is look for it.....or have some interest in the subject....

Would I give the government a passing grade for maximising its message to the people "NO" , I would not, the government did not use all media forms available....nor did it track and ensure the accuracy of each news report....after it was reported by various news agencies.......but to blame it not only with the governments message or its release of info,NO not the only problem.... it was how the media reported it....I attended several news releases briefings while I was over there, as part of a security det for the media....of battles or operations I took place in....and what was reported the next day in the media, was not even close.....and yet the media all attended the same briefing, and the story came out dozens of ways....very rarely did they get it right the first time.....hard to get the news when most media agencies did not bother to leave the camp.....there was a few exceptions...that media pers went outside the wire....but not many....they reported news as it happened and told it like it was and most of those were women........the rest of them might as well stayed in Canada...

Combine this with Joe publics interest in the topic....and you get the right conditions, most of the public did not give a damn about Afghanistan, or the mission, they could not take the time to inform themselves, and when soldiers began to speak, the brushed them off as government puppets....they did not want to hear any more, they had already formed their opinion...Who do I blame , well you already know that answer.....who do I want making those decisions about where and when to send it's troops....not Joe public who has on many occasions proved not very good stewards of our nations military...

I want the guy that has been flooded with all the info they need to make a life and death decision.....

[GostHacked]

I'm not crying about anything....we were pulled out of Afghanistan because of ill informed public pressure....we talked about this already....you know the same people you think knows better than the government.....and yet could not make a decision if their lives depended on it....because nobody cares to get informed like they should....poggy check, beer store and hockey night in Canada , if we had messed with any of those Afghanistan would be over in a week....

Come on eyeball really, in harms way....lots of terrorist in BC is there..i'm willing to bet it is the same as it was 10 years ago....Harms way in deed....I see it it in a different light, our nation helped out another in it's time of need....but then again your not the sharing type of guy are you....

We went in there on ill informed politicians and military leaders.

[Big Guy]

We went in there on ill informed politicians and military leaders.

I agree. It has been documented that our politicians and military leaders had either little information about the mission or chose to ignore the intelligence available. Yet, they decided to get involved and 160 lives and $ multi billions later they still have not had the honesty to admit that they were wrong.

That to me is the major tragedy of this ill conceived expedition.

You cannot learn from your mistakes until you admit your mistakes. Perhaps that is why we still have some fighters in the fiasco of an airspace over Iraq and Syria.

[Topaz]

Topaz: don't use the soldiers as an excuse , it is not fair to them....remember it was the soldiers that wanted to stay and finish the job....

tell eyeball why you think this is a bad and horrible mistake....

Hey, I'm on the soldiers side, its really sad to see them come home and can't deal with war and end up 6 feet under because they couldn't cope. Sure many want to stay because many feel guilty because the left their friend or brother behind, while they are safe at home. They all become family and they don't stay because they feel its right , it more to help out their "family" get home too. A US general said its going to be a 30 year war... its a waste of lives and money just for power over the ME. What INTEREST are we fight for?

[Army Guy]

We went in there on ill informed politicians and military leaders.

Is that fact or your opinion.....if it is fact then i'd like to see a source.....

[Army Guy]

Hey, I'm on the soldiers side, its really sad to see them come home and can't deal with war and end up 6 feet under because they couldn't cope. Sure many want to stay because many feel guilty because the left their friend or brother behind, while they are safe at home. They all become family and they don't stay because they feel its right , it more to help out their "family" get home too. A US general said its going to be a 30 year war... its a waste of lives and money just for power over the ME. What INTEREST are we fight for?

That's on of the side effects of war Topaz, and it does not matter where the conflict is, what it is about, good or bad, war destroys everything, it brings out the worst in people....The average human being is not built mentally for killing, so it takes a toll.....

Yes I would agree many soldiers continued to fight this war because of their brothers in arms.....but their are many reasons, Soldiers took this mission on and called it our own ....because we felt our own nation forgot about us....they could not have been bothered to help us in our time of need.....when we did speak....They brushed us off as governmental puppets......and when you hear it as often as we did, then you start to believe in it....everything we pleaded for , beg for came at the cost of Soldiers lives...uniforms, equipment, more troops, everything that Canada finally agreed to relent to Canadian soldiers had to die , not one or two....but dozens....everything has a price we the soldiers learned that very early....and tax payers dollars has a steep price.... Hard to come to the conclusion that many Canadians were on our side.....Hard to come to the conclusion when many Canadians can't even point to Afghanistan on a map....hard to come to that conclusion when Canadians are not very informed about the mission.....

For you it may of been a waste of your portion of your tax dollars, or your time ,having to listen to the endless debates on the mission, how much it cost, how long it was going on, etc, etc you see while you and your family discussed it over the supper meal, myself and thousands like me we on the ground, trying to survive day to day, trying to bring a little piece of Canada over there, improve some lives, make small villages a little safer, ....but for me it was not a waste, for me all that sacrifice will never be a waste....It cant be , because of our small military most soldiers had to serve multi tours, in fact in is more common to see guys with 5 tours than 2 or 3 ....think about what that means to them....and their families, their kids and their spouses....away for 3 years of their lives....so that we could come back and have the citizens of this country slap us in the face and tell us it was all for nothing .....nothing but a waste......of time, money, sweat, blood and tears....

I post this not to shit on you Topaz....but to inform you this is what it is like to hear, that the best years of my live was for nothing...that some of my best friends in the world who had paid the ultimate price , was for nothing....You and the others have the right to print or post what ever you want here....it is your right it is one of your freedoms....I hope in the future you are on our side, I also hope all Canadians come to support their nations military not with a mere bumper sticker or slogan or a YA I do....but that they take our government to task , to ensure soldiers don't have to die to get the uniforms, equipment they need to do the job ....that Canada has asked them to do....that you hold our government to task ensuring vets get the care they need and deserve.....

[eyeball]

Is cognitive and moral dissonance a factor in any soldiers becoming ill? It's hard to believe there aren't soldiers who also think they wasted their time and their health on an effort they've come to regard as being morally questionable and misguided. In the case of these poor souls I would imagine the mismanagement of it all would be a rather moot factor in whatever Hell they're in.

[Big Guy]

Is that fact or your opinion.....if it is fact then i'd like to see a source.....

I suggest that you read, "The Unexpected War" - Janet Gross Stein and Eugene Lang.

This is an insiders look as to what decisions were made by whom and at what time in Afghanistan.

None of the quotes or information or conversations in the book have been challenged by anyone. Janet is considered an expert on the region. Our politicians were completely mistaken and uninformed of what was happening on the ground and Hillier made promises about success that he had no business making and that he will not admit to right to this day.

[Army Guy]

First off I do want to admit that I have not read the entire book, I have however read dozens of reviews on the book itself, here is what they have to say....
it should also be noted that the book itself was published in 2007, and im sure was not written over night so still very early in the Afghanistan conflict...
here is some of there comments:

Canadian Defence and Foreign Affairs Institute, Royal Canadian Military Institute, Canadian Institute for Strategic Studies, defence lobbyists and corporations, and academics in some way affiliated with defence issues.

by whom the book is called a “...self-serving diatribe,” and “decidedly partisan.” From this perspective, the book is felt to be an anti-military, pro-Liberal political ‘blame game.’

A common criticism from this side of the civil-military dynamic is a staunch defence of military leaders in the light of perceived attacks from the authors. Some reviewers felt that Stein and Land attempted to square the blame of Canada’s involvement on diplomats and military leaders, and away from their ‘political masters.’ Some go further and claim that the book actually insults the military leadership, portraying them as bullies, or implying that they ‘bamboozled’ their political masters into a course of action.

Was it, as their detractors proclaim, the authors’ intent to portray the military as ‘a gang of bullies,’ and to lay blame for the Afghanistan mission upon them? Did General Hillier ‘bamboozle’ the civil authority? Some passages from the book are telling. “The Canadian Forces [CF] have [sic] flourished under the charismatic leadership of General Rick Hillier...”4 While some state that the authors place blame on the Chief of Defence Staff (CDS), the text is explicit: “Hillier would persuade Bill Graham and ultimately Paul Martin to send Canada’s military deeper and deeper into the conflict in Afghanistan.”5 General Hillier is a strong, persuasive individual, and the authors place him squarely in that light.

It seems to be the common theme in most of the reviews I read....a lot of finger pointing and all it of leading to diplomats and the CDS, I makes one wonder who was running what, the PM or the military....and for an organization that was suppose to be calling the shots, it did little to further it's own budget or properly equip it's troops.....One has to make the assumption that their power is very limited as the CDS was always lobby for more funding and better equipment...So the book is to lead us to believe that the entire conflict was run and controlled by the above mentioned people....that is quit a leap for the reader to take....

You claim that the entire book is an insiders look as to the afghan conflict, that Eugene Lang had a seat at the table of most meeting involving the MDND
and the CDS or even the PM....I agree he had a seat at the table...but as the books reads , once again it points fingers as if making excuses for the Guys that where suppose to be in charge....of the entire nation...and all of its workings including the foreign policy and workings of the military. Even Eugene had influence over matters in the books, it fails to explain what he did he owns as his and what direction he pushed for....

The information and conversations have been challenged some of them written off completely, but then again it becomes a dick measuring exericise ....so everyone is free to make their own opinion....

some more insight to Janets way of thinking

Academics often accuse politicians of wanting to rewrite history to suit their own purposes. Janet Gross Stein (Bravo For Soldiers Of Peace -- Nov. 16), it seems, is now willing to perform that task on our behalf.

She argues that Canada's soldiers are being sent to Afghanistan to do what they do best -- "secure humanitarian space." They should not be sent to engage in combat, for this would be un-Canadian. According to the professor, the main task of our military should be to protect civilians during times of war. To do otherwise would go against many years of Canadian tradition.

Thus, Canadians are best suited for peacekeeping and, while our forces need to retain combat skills, they should never expect to use them except in self-defence while protecting others.

Prof. Stein's "tradition" is a fabrication. The purpose of our military has always been to fight wars, when called on, along with our allies. The Canadian Forces have always trained for war and they expect to be sent to war. It is precisely because our soldiers train for mid- to high-intensity combat that they have the requisite skills and discipline for peacekeeping.

And what message is Prof. Stein sending to our allies, especially the Americans? It seems to be: "You fight the wars and we will take credit for the peace." Hardly an equitable contract.

MP for Nepean-Carleton and chair of the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/letters/no-such-tradition/article4156716/

SO while Janet gross stein is a professional in her field it does not mean that she is the absolute knowledge of the topic at hand, some of her views point towards are of an anti military stance, that is the message prevalent in this book, where fingers are pointed away from the men who where actually in charge , who we elected to make those tough choices....she makes no mistake in singling out retired Gen Hillier, as he was the author of displacing that vicious rumour that Canadian military had a long standing history as peace keepers....more so than the warriors they have always been....

[eyeball]

No such 'tradition'

As true as that is in terms of our military's more distant past it is clearly a tradition Ottawa has tried to add too if not replace, with one of peacekeeping with the clear unambiguous blessings of most Canadians for decades.

The books and acrimonious debate surrounding our involvement in Afghanistan is a political and politicized reaction to the public's sense of official ambiguity in the reasons given for going there and into the ME quagmire/catastrophe generally. As for who should be deciding when and where our troops will be used in overtly combative missions in foreign countries that as I've said before should now be up to Canadians to decide in a vote requiring a robust supermajority. The only way I see how to defuse the acrimony and ambiguity and their very harmful effect on our country is to put responsibility for our foreign engagements in the hands and on the heads of Canadians directly.

Our politicians are just way to fickle and clearly lack the moral and ethical background such important decisions require.

[Big Guy]

....she makes no mistake in singling out retired Gen Hillier, as he was the author of displacing that vicious rumour that Canadian military had a long standing history as peace keepers....more so than the warriors they have always been....

I do hope that this is not a case of trying to discredit the messenger when the issue cannot be argued.

I do notice that your quotes are from the Canadian Military Journal - an organization that has a skin in this game. I try to get the views of those who can be as objective as possible. People like Eric Margolis ("American Raj") who is also considered an expert on the Middle East. His views and condemnations are similar to those of Janet and Eugene.

Thank you for your response but I still have to believe those who are known to have first hand knowledge of the Middle East and who have no prejudice towards any of the participants.

[Army Guy]

From what I have read of her works I do get the impression she is anti military....those comments are very clear in her work, hardly bias opinion. and to place a lot of the blame on DND leadership, and way for the main characters in this conflict, one of those is the PM and his direct office....

it was not my intention to engage in character assignations , but rather to show you her bias.

I did use my example from the military Journal, but if you read the entire article they gave it an average review, and thought it could have concentrated on some of the other portions of the conflict and establishment...the review is better than I expected...considering it is a CF publication...I could have used the other organizations but they totally discount her work, and it would not of furthered discussion....

[Big Guy]

From what I have read of her works I do get the impression she is anti military....those comments are very clear in her work, hardly bias opinion. and to place a lot of the blame on DND leadership, and way for the main characters in this conflict, one of those is the PM and his direct office....

it was not my intention to engage in character assignations , but rather to show you her bias.

I did use my example from the military Journal, but if you read the entire article they gave it an average review, and thought it could have concentrated on some of the other portions of the conflict and establishment...the review is better than I expected...considering it is a CF publication...I could have used the other organizations but they totally discount her work, and it would not of furthered discussion....

I have no disagreement that you have your particular opinions based on your experiences. I respect those opinions. We appear to believe different resources and that is what discussion is all about. Thank you for your time.