From Harper Conservatives to Progressive Conservatives

[Big Guy]

For those of us who wondered in which direction the post Harper Conservatives would go, it looks like they are going back - to the Progressive Conservatives:

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2015/12/02/former-conservative-pms-tell-ambrose-to-lay-out-bigger-welcome-mat.html

Looks like "The Liberals Are Back" mantra is going to be followed by "The Progressive Conservatives Are Back". The party’s interim leader has been seeking advice from Joe Clark, Brian Mulroney, and Kim Campbell, who allude to many party faithful feeling alienated during the Harper years.

Interim Leader Ambrose said Mulroney and Clark in particular emphasized that the party should signal that it is open to all types of conservatives — a direct reference to Progressive Conservatives who might have felt alienated in recent years. It did not take long to slam the door behind Harper. Former leader Stephen Harper had a mercurial relationship with Mulroney, and little contact with Clark, who had opposed the merger of the Canadian Alliance and Progressive Conservative parties.

It will be interesting to see which faction will win the leadership election.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Big Guy

[Keepitsimple]

The factions you speak of have largely dissipated. It took a certain ideology to merge the parties, another one to maintain cohesion - and now, as the reform elements (The West wants in!) have retired or died off, it will take a revised, broad and more open platform to revitalize and grow the party. I view it as an evolution - one that certainly paid dividends but in it's last edition, had run its course. There's a time and place for everything in politics. Let's not forget Mike Harris's two resounding majority governments in Ontario - followed by the last 10 years of Liberal rule.

[socialist]

For those of us who wondered in which direction the post Harper Conservatives would go, it looks like they are going back - to the Progressive Conservatives:

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2015/12/02/former-conservative-pms-tell-ambrose-to-lay-out-bigger-welcome-mat.html

Looks like "The Liberals Are Back" mantra is going to be followed by "The Progressive Conservatives Are Back". The party’s interim leader has been seeking advice from Joe Clark, Brian Mulroney, and Kim Campbell, who allude to many party faithful feeling alienated during the Harper years.

Interim Leader Ambrose said Mulroney and Clark in particular emphasized that the party should signal that it is open to all types of conservatives — a direct reference to Progressive Conservatives who might have felt alienated in recent years. It did not take long to slam the door behind Harper. Former leader Stephen Harper had a mercurial relationship with Mulroney, and little contact with Clark, who had opposed the merger of the Canadian Alliance and Progressive Conservative parties.

It will be interesting to see which faction will win the leadership election.

Yes, we need a return to the days when there was really no difference between the Liberals and Progressive Conservatives. Why would they be different? They are both controlled by Power Corp. But, hey, let's let the ignorant public "think" they have a choice.

[CITIZEN_2015]

Progressive (Mulroney, Clarke) or repressive-oppressive (Harper regime) I will NEVER vote for the conservative party again (I voted for Mulroney twice). The recent repressive-oppressives messed up this country so bad (and the progressives stayed silent and said or did nothing even during the campaign which Harper played the race card and set Canadians against each other both Mulroney and Clarke stayed silent) that it takes decades to recover this country and reverse their deeds. Down with the conservative party of Canada.

Edited December 7, 2015 by CITIZEN_2015

[August1991]

For those of us who wondered in which direction the post Harper Conservatives would go, it looks like they are going back - to the Progressive Conservatives

You cite the Toronto Star as an indication of the future of federal Canada's Conservative Party?

=====

I think rather that federal Liberals must rethink their existence in this 21st century.

After three defeats under three different leaders, the federal Liberal Party resorted to a name brand (Peron style) from a past century.

As Justin tries to say, "It's 2015." Well, he's famous - like Paris Hilton - because of the 1960s. Except, it's not the 1960s anymore.

IOW, in this 21st century, it is the federal Liberal Party that should question its existence. Under these federal Liberals, we increasingly look like the Austrian-Hungarian Empire.

And Justin, the son of Pierre, will increasingly look/sound like Franz-Joseph - or more likely Gérald Tremblay or Juanita Peron.

(Gérald loved the crowds... He had a word for everyone in both official languages.)

Edited December 7, 2015 by August1991

[Smallc]

I think rather that federal Liberals must rethink their existence in this 21st century.

Sure. They just have the benefit of doing it from the government bench with a majority government.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Smallc

[Big Guy]

You cite the Toronto Star as an indication of the future of federal Canada's Conservative Party?

...

I look towards the news media to report actions and try to make my own decisions as to what those actions mean.

There is a battle going on in the post-Harper for control of the heart of the party. The hardliners want their hard lines followed and the disgruntled progressives want change - towards the middle. It is a legitimate, necessary and historical battle that takes place in every party which has lost power. Ambrose appears to be a compromise from both sides and is showing a gentler post-Harper approach even to the point of trying to distance the party from the more unpopular Harper policies.

The party is giving itself a year. That is a healthy period of time. If the far right wing wins there is a danger that they will be perceived as Harper 2.0 and sabotage any future elections if the middle-left progressives win there is a danger that the far right will leave and they go through the old Reform, Alliance, amalgamation lengthy process.

What the Trudeau government does about electoral reform may dictate the moves within the Conservative party. If they follow through with some kind of proportional rep system that will change long term party strategy - on all sides.

[waldo]

You cite the Toronto Star as an indication of the future of federal Canada's Conservative Party?

for what its worth: just released national Abacus survey on the CPC leadership has the former leader of the Progressive Conservatives, Peter MacKay, with a lead that doubles his nearest rival (Jean Charest)... Per an Abacus nationwide survey on the leading candidates for CPC leadership: Peter MacKay leads main group followed by Jean Charest, Jason Kenney, Lisa Raitt, and Brad Wall. Secondary grouping includes Max Bernier, Doug Ford, Michael Chong and Kellie Leitch.

both MacKay and Charest as the top-two leadership candidates (with MacKay's strength emanating from survey participants from Ontario and Atlantic Canada)... no comment from Stephen Harper yet!

[Bryan]

A return to the Progressives absolutely will not happen. If there is one thing Conservatives were disappointed with Mr. Harper about, it's that he governed much farther to the left than he campaigned. In order to get selected leader, the candidates will have to convince the party members that they will be more conservative than Stephen Harper was, not less.

Where they do have to make a change is in the charisma department. Style won over substance in the last election, and that cannot be ignored.

[Smallc]

I think you really need to reflect on what you're saying. What the Conservatives need is someone electable. More Conservative than Harper will never be electable in Canada. He ended up governing more left than expected because the electorate gave him no choice.

As for style over substance - the Liberal platform was stronger on tax cuts than the conservative one, and stronger on many social on city issues than the NDP won. It was in fact the most substantive platform available.

The Conservatives lost for two reasons; Harper fatigue and lack of ideas.

[Bryan]

I think you really need to reflect on what you're saying. What the Conservatives need is someone electable. More Conservative than Harper will never be electable in Canada. He ended up governing more left than expected because the electorate gave him no choice.

Harper was nowhere near as conservative as the public's perception. The issue was never how far right he governed, but what people thought he was doing. 90% of people's "far right" perceptions of him were complete fabrications. With proper communication, there is more than enough room to go much farther right while still actually coming in to the left of what people thought Harper was.

As for style over substance - the Liberal platform was stronger on tax cuts than the conservative one,

That is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen you write. The Liberal platform was not even close to being costed. They claimed they were running on tax cuts, but the numbers clearly show substantial tax increases -- and they are already angling in that direction. Your taxes are going up, not down -- bank on it.

[Smallc]

Harper was nowhere near as conservative as the public's perception. The issue was never how far right he governed, but what people thought he was doing. 90% of people's "far right" perceptions of him were complete fabrications. With proper communication, there is more than enough room to go much farther right while still actually coming in to the left of what people thought Harper was.

I would agree he wasn't all that scary or conservative. I'd disagree that you could easily go further.

That is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen you write. The Liberal platform was not even close to being costed. They claimed they were running on tax cuts, but the numbers clearly show substantial tax increases -- and they are already angling in that direction. Your taxes are going up, not down -- bank on it.

My taxes are staying exactly the same (I actually will see a small decrease at the top end, maybe). If you have proof to the contrary....

It's clear from the newest financial numbers that no one's platform was properly costed.

[Bryan]

My taxes are staying exactly the same (I actually will see a small decrease at the top end, maybe).

At this moment. This session of parliament has just started. Let's see if that's true by next tax season.

[Big Guy]

A return to the Progressives absolutely will not happen. If there is one thing Conservatives were disappointed with Mr. Harper about, it's that he governed much farther to the left than he campaigned. In order to get selected leader, the candidates will have to convince the party members that they will be more conservative than Stephen Harper was, not less.

Where they do have to make a change is in the charisma department. Style won over substance in the last election, and that cannot be ignored.

If the Conservatives hope to regain power then they will have to ignore members with that kind of attitude. "Style over substance" is a mistaken excuse. The passionate losers often rationalize their loss by blaming their messengers or messages rather than the content. That is the formula for continued loss.

The latest Canadian polls put MacKay in the lead followed by Charest and Kenny showing strength and Rait, Wall, Bernier and Ford as outsiders. Kenny has been seen as the new chosen son or Harper 2.0 and not doing well with the majority of the party.

Initial moves indicate that the Conservatives are looking at the pre-amalgamation Progressive Conservatives of MacKay and the Mulroney backed Charest.

I believe that Bryan is not in touch with the reality of the direction I which the Conservatives are going.

[Bryan]

I believe that Bryan is not in touch with the reality of the direction I which the Conservatives are going.

I believe that you don't know anything about the party. How many of the national conventions have you been to? EDA meetings? How many CPC officials can you count as personal friends?

Neither McKay nor Charest have a hope of getting anywhere near the leadership. We already have a liberal party, we don't need two.

[Big Guy]

I believe that you don't know anything about the party. How many of the national conventions have you been to? EDA meetings? How many CPC officials can you count as personal friends?

Neither McKay nor Charest have a hope of getting anywhere near the leadership. We already have a liberal party, we don't need two.

You can believe what you choose to believe. I have a pretty good understanding of what is happening in the Conservative party. I am a card carrying member and privy to any information given to members. My associates and associations within the party are none of your business.

I am stating what the media is reporting and also believe that any hope of getting beck into power for the Conservatives lies in running away from the Harper style and/or record.

As to which one of us is correct - I will leave that to what unfolds over the next year.

[Bryan]

I am stating what the media is reporting

And how has their track record been when reporting "inside" the CPC?

and also believe that any hope of getting beck into power for the Conservatives lies in running away from the Harper style and/or record.

Style, yes. Record, no.

[August1991]

I am stating what the media is reporting and also believe that any hope of getting beck into power for the Conservatives lies in running away from the Harper style and/or record.

Governments defeat themselves, and I suspect that this federal government under Trudeau Jnr will defeat itself sooner rather than later.

Trudeau Jnr reminds me of Trudeau Snr in his Margaret "The Land is Strong" phase.

As to the federal Conservatives, I would suggest that they remain true - as a carpenter would say.

=====

But if you ask me seriously: more free trade and a better tax system (Mulroney) and less government spending (Harper).

Why not abolish our agricultural quotas and eliminate our federal subsidy to the CBC?

Edited December 8, 2015 by August1991

[On Guard for Thee]

A return to the Progressives absolutely will not happen. If there is one thing Conservatives were disappointed with Mr. Harper about, it's that he governed much farther to the left than he campaigned. In order to get selected leader, the candidates will have to convince the party members that they will be more conservative than Stephen Harper was, not less.

Where they do have to make a change is in the charisma department. Style won over substance in the last election, and that cannot be ignored.

I hope the new leader will go along with your train of thought, then we won't have to deal with a conservative gov. for a long time to come. If you haven't noticed, the leading contenders for leader of the CPC are the ones heading for the center.

[August1991]

If you haven't noticed, the leading contenders for leader of the CPC are the ones heading for the center.

Centre? In the 1970s, people said such nonsense. Peaceful co-existence, detente etc.

Since Deng Xiao-Ping and the collapse of the Soviet Union, there is no Leftism - except on Western university faculties.

[On Guard for Thee]

Centre? In the 1970s, people said such nonsense. Peaceful co-existence, detente etc.

Since Deng Xiao-Ping and the collapse of the Soviet Union, there is no Leftism - except on Western university faculties.

In terms of the CPC, the potential leaders are heading away from Harper's stance and more toward the center. Deng is another distant issue.

[Derek 2.0]

for what its worth: just released national Abacus survey on the CPC leadership has the former leader of the Progressive Conservatives, Peter MacKay, with a lead that doubles his nearest rival (Jean Charest)...

Wasn't said poll taken across party lines? As such, it would explain the leftward tilt...........With that, I'd have no qualms with a Peter MacKay leadership bid, I'm just not sure that he's interested with a new baby and a toddler (his cited reasons for retiring).

I'd be interested to see where Ambrose or Raitt stands in a year/18 months though.......

[waldo]

Wasn't said poll taken across party lines? As such, it would explain the leftward tilt...........With that, I'd have no qualms with a Peter MacKay leadership bid, I'm just not sure that he's interested with a new baby and a toddler (his cited reasons for retiring).

I'd be interested to see where Ambrose or Raitt stands in a year/18 months though.......

across party lines? Huh! It was a nationwide poll of Canadians... surely you're not writing off any swing-votes, hey? Surely some of those can be brought back into the CPC fold, right? Err... into the PC fold, right? The political animal MacKay won't be hesitant to return; Harper out of the way is a key driver. Neither Ambrose or Raitt could pull it off; neither could inspire Canadians nationally. Has Wall started his French lessons yet?

.

[Derek 2.0]

across party lines? Huh! It was a nationwide poll of Canadians... surely you're not writing off any swing-votes, hey?

If Conservatives and Liberals were polled on who best to be the NDP's next leader, do you not think it would differ from what an ardent socialist might select?

Surely some of those can be brought back into the CPC fold, right? Err... into the PC fold, right? The political animal MacKay won't be hesitant to return; Harper out of the way is a key driver. Neither Ambrose or Raitt could pull it off; neither could inspire Canadians nationally. Has Wall started his French lessons yet?

As I said, I'd have no qualms with a Mackay bid.......I'm just not sure how much he wants to make a run. I wouldn't discount either Ambrose or Raitt, though I tend to agree they don't currently have the name recognition or backing from within the party to make a viable push, I'll withhold judgement for a few years and allow them to sink or swim with more prominent roles in Opposition..........as I've said in previous threads, I'd still give consideration to Rempel, Leitch and O'Toole.......though I wouldn't discount Kenney, I feel his stock has diminished (not an Alexander collapse though) and its clear he's the closest to Harper 2.0.

[socialist]

If Conservatives and Liberals were polled on who best to be the NDP's next leader, do you not think it would differ from what an ardent socialist might select?

As I said, I'd have no qualms with a Mackay bid.......I'm just not sure how much he wants to make a run. I wouldn't discount either Ambrose or Raitt, though I tend to agree they don't currently have the name recognition or backing from within the party to make a viable push, I'll withhold judgement for a few years and allow them to sink or swim with more prominent roles in Opposition..........as I've said in previous threads, I'd still give consideration to Rempel, Leitch and O'Toole.......though I wouldn't discount Kenney, I feel his stock has diminished (not an Alexander collapse though) and its clear he's the closest to Harper 2.0.

There is no need to apologize for the Harper years; he will soon look good compared to the power at all costs driven LPC, who exist to further those with whom they're politically connected.