DogOnPorch Posted December 4, 2015 Report Posted December 4, 2015 Right. Islam never killed anyone. It can't hold a gun, or a knife, and there's nowhere to strap an explosive belt. Some Muslims, on the other hand... I'm not sure I agree. I think an ideology can be very dangerous. Islam has remained VERY consistent in it's stated goals if we remove the period where it was subdued briefly (1918-1979)...thus not viewed as a threat. Islam has repeatedly attempted to do the big take-over through-out history. The individual Muslims that conduct warfare in Islam's name got their ideas from somewhere. Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Guest Posted December 4, 2015 Report Posted December 4, 2015 I'm not sure I agree. I think an ideology can be very dangerous. Islam has remained VERY consistent in it's stated goals if we remove the period where it was subdued briefly (1918-1979)...thus not viewed as a threat. Islam has repeatedly attempted to do the big take-over through-out history. The individual Muslims that conduct warfare in Islam's name got their ideas from somewhere. You can't hold Islam responsible for interpretation. Islam is an idea. It takes Humans to turn it into something productive, or destructive.
DogOnPorch Posted December 4, 2015 Report Posted December 4, 2015 You can't hold Islam responsible for interpretation. Islam is an idea. It takes Humans to turn it into something productive, or destructive. I disagree. Things like Lepanto and Vienna (Battles of) are facts. There was no USA bombing anybody in those days... Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Guest Posted December 4, 2015 Report Posted December 4, 2015 I disagree. Things like Lepanto and Vienna (Battles of) are facts. There was no USA bombing anybody in those days... What does the US bombing have to do with anything? I'm not against the US bombing pretty much anything they want to. It will usually suit me as well. I assume those battles involved Humans?
DogOnPorch Posted December 4, 2015 Report Posted December 4, 2015 What does the US bombing have to do with anything? I'm not against the US bombing pretty much anything they want to. It will usually suit me as well. I assume those battles involved Humans? Humans that were following Islam. Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Smallc Posted December 4, 2015 Report Posted December 4, 2015 So, if I understand you and bcsapper, Islam is not responsible as it isn't a human being? It's like how guns don't kill people - they just make it a hell of a lot easier.
Smallc Posted December 4, 2015 Report Posted December 4, 2015 Humans that were following Islam. Yes, and it takes humans to believe in the ideology. Without followers (and radical, misguided ones, at that) ideology is powerless.
Guest Posted December 4, 2015 Report Posted December 4, 2015 (edited) Humans that were following Islam. Well, that's my point. There were those around at the time who were also doing that who weren't involved in the battles, and that could well have been because they thought Islam was saying something different to them. Please don't get the impression I'm excusing Islamists. I'm just saying that an idea is open to interpretation, and blaming the idea puts an awful lot of blameless people under that umbrella. Edited December 4, 2015 by bcsapper
DogOnPorch Posted December 4, 2015 Report Posted December 4, 2015 Yes, and it takes humans to believe in the ideology. Without followers (and radical, misguided ones, at that) ideology is powerless. I'm sorry...but that does not hold water with me. Ideologies are almost like living entities. Islam via the Quran is considered the very word of God. Not some human interpretation of it. Our own secular incredulity will not allow many of us 'Westerners' to understand that Muslims actually believe in the Quran and the Hadiths. Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Guest Posted December 4, 2015 Report Posted December 4, 2015 I'm sorry...but that does not hold water with me. Ideologies are almost like living entities. Islam via the Quran is considered the very word of God. Not some human interpretation of it. Our own secular incredulity will not allow many of us 'Westerners' to understand that Muslims actually believe in the Quran and the Hadiths. No, if that was the case we would all be in very serious trouble. Or not, as by now the population of the planet would be considerably less and AGW probably wouldn't be an issue any more.
DogOnPorch Posted December 4, 2015 Report Posted December 4, 2015 Well, that's my point. There were those around at the time who were also doing that who weren't involved in the battles, and that could well have been because they thought Islam was saying something different to them. Please don't get the impression I'm excusing Islamists. I'm just saying that an idea is open to interpretation, and blaming the idea puts an awful lot of blameless people under that umbrella. Just Islam. Have you read the Quran? Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted December 4, 2015 Report Posted December 4, 2015 No, if that was the case we would all be in very serious trouble. Or not, as by now the population of the planet would be considerably less and AGW probably wouldn't be an issue any more. Huh? Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
On Guard for Thee Posted December 4, 2015 Report Posted December 4, 2015 (edited) I'm sorry...but that does not hold water with me. Ideologies are almost like living entities. Islam via the Quran is considered the very word of God. Not some human interpretation of it. Our own secular incredulity will not allow many of us 'Westerners' to understand that Muslims actually believe in the Quran and the Hadiths. Human interpretation of such scripts as the Koran and the Bible are exactly what is wrong with religions. Edited December 4, 2015 by On Guard for Thee
Smallc Posted December 4, 2015 Report Posted December 4, 2015 I'm sorry...but that does not hold water with me. Ideologies are almost like living entities. You only say that because they're made up of living entities. Islam via the Quran is considered the very word of God. Yes, that's true of many fairytale books from many religions. Some people take it more seriously than others....leading to... Not some human interpretation of it. A human wrote the book. It's all about human stories and human interpretations. Without language and communication, ideas have no form or meaning. Our own secular incredulity will not allow many of us 'Westerners' to understand that Muslims actually believe in the Quran and the Hadiths. I understand that many believe it. I understand that many believe it in a way that is very damaging to human society.
Guest Posted December 4, 2015 Report Posted December 4, 2015 Just Islam. Have you read the Quran? My point exactly. Someone had to read it.
DogOnPorch Posted December 4, 2015 Report Posted December 4, 2015 Huan interpretation o such scripts as the Koran ad the Bible are exactly what is wrong with religions. The Quran is the very living words of Allah. Not open to revision. Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted December 4, 2015 Report Posted December 4, 2015 My point exactly. Someone had to read it. So...no? Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Guest Posted December 4, 2015 Report Posted December 4, 2015 Huh? If they all believed it in the way the radicals do I imagine a lot more of us would be dead.
Smallc Posted December 4, 2015 Report Posted December 4, 2015 Human interpretation of such scripts as the Koran and the Bible are exactly what is wrong with religions. Well, actually, I'm not sure I agree there. As an atheist, I understand that the word of God is actually the word of man from a bygone era. Its purpose was control. Today we have other means of control.
On Guard for Thee Posted December 4, 2015 Report Posted December 4, 2015 The Quran is the very living words of Allah. Not open to revision.It's certainly open to interpretation.
On Guard for Thee Posted December 4, 2015 Report Posted December 4, 2015 Well, actually, I'm not sure I agree there. As an atheist, I understand that the word of God is actually the word of man from a bygone era. Its purpose was control. Today we have other means of control. All of these scripts are the words of men. There is no God.
DogOnPorch Posted December 4, 2015 Report Posted December 4, 2015 You only say that because they're made up of living entities. Yes, that's true of many fairytale books from many religions. Some people take it more seriously than others....leading to... A human wrote the book. It's all about human stories and human interpretations. Without language and communication, ideas have no form or meaning. I understand that many believe it. I understand that many believe it in a way that is very damaging to human society. Islam survives the death of those living entities. Only the Quran claims to be the actual words of a deity. Allah wrote the Quran. Dictated it to Mohammed. Muslims believe in the Quran...all of it. If not...they're not Muslims. Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
dialamah Posted December 4, 2015 Report Posted December 4, 2015 I'm sorry...but that does not hold water with me. Ideologies are almost like living entities. Islam via the Quran is considered the very word of God. Not some human interpretation of it. Our own secular incredulity will not allow many of us 'Westerners' to understand that Muslims actually believe in the Quran and the Hadiths. And Christians belief the bible is 'the very word of God', so they take that and whatever additional stuff their church tells them to believe. Most Christians in Western countries interpret the bible in ways that promote peace; a few in some other countries interpret the bible in ways that promote violence. Islam is the same; the Quran and the Hadiths say a lot of different things and different groups within Islam choose which of those things they'll believe in and follow. Blaming all Muslims because some of them believe in violence is like blaming all Christians because some of them believe in violence.
DogOnPorch Posted December 4, 2015 Report Posted December 4, 2015 All of these scripts are the words of men. There is no God. A phrase that would earn you a 5.56mm round if tasked... Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Smallc Posted December 4, 2015 Report Posted December 4, 2015 The Quran is the very living words of Allah. Not open to revision.To many - not all. Eventually a larger and larger number, exposed to western society, will care less and less.
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