American Israeli Relations

[Big Guy]

Looks like Netanyahu is coming to Washington:

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2015/11/warnings-war-israeli-pm-embarks-visit-151108064623438.html

Why does he bother? It is pretty evident that Obama does not like Netanyahu and vice versa. Short of a chance to give each other a punch in the mouth what could this face to face meeting accomplish?

[Moonlight Graham]

From the article:

Obama hosts an Israeli counterpart with whom he has a strained relationship and few practical points of leverage to address a situation that analysts and rights activists say may spin out of control.

Few points of leverage? The US gives tens of billions in military foreign aid to Israel. Israel has no real allies in the region, they're pretty isolated, everyone wants them gone. Take away US support and Israel is in a bad position.

Netanyahu is a jerk who was re-elected by Israelis on a promise to never have peace. Israelis don't deserve our sympathy or support for the violence and unrest that's been happening there the last few years. This is what happens when you keep building settlements in the West Bank illegally in an attempt to slowly gain more territory. Creeping colonialism it is. Obama should tell Netanyahu that you either play ball in good faith with the Palestinians or US support is gone. Canada should do the same. There's no chance for peace if not even the Israelis will meet halfway.

[bush_cheney2004]

United States' foreign aid to Israel does not come from President Obama...it comes from Congress and American taxpayers. Obama will be gone in January 2017, but not American commitment to the closest ally in the region. Palestinians also receive U.S. foreign aid.

[Argus]

Few points of leverage? The US gives tens of billions in military foreign aid to Israel. Israel has no real allies in the region, they're pretty isolated, everyone wants them gone. Take away US support and Israel is in a bad position.

Israel has been in a bad position from year one. They're a democracy in a land which despises democracy. They're Jews among people who hate Jews, in a land of Muslims where the prevailing view, even after several generations, is that they're invaders who need to be forced out. To suggest this is due to anything Israel has done is to ignore history. They were attacked right at the start, and there has been unrelenting hostility towards them from the surrounding Arab dictatorships ever since.

Netanyahu is a jerk who was re-elected by Israelis on a promise to never have peace. Israelis don't deserve our sympathy or support for the violence and unrest that's been happening there the last few years. This is what happens when you keep building settlements in the West Bank illegally in an attempt to slowly gain more territory. Creeping colonialism it is. Obama should tell Netanyahu that you either play ball in good faith with the Palestinians or US support is gone. Canada should do the same. There's no chance for peace if not even the Israelis will meet halfway.

Netanyahu is the product of a people who have been living in a sea of ferocious hostility for almost seventy years. No one in Israel today can remember a time Arabs weren't trying to kill them. No one can remember a time of peace because Israel has never been granted any peace. In times without outright war the local extremist groups, funded by surrounding Arab states, have engaged in terrorism and guerrilla attacks year after year after year. I don't think you can even imagine what it must be like to grow up and live your life in such a place, knowing that a sullen horde of religious fanatics is surrounding your state, ever vigilante to any chance to get in and kill any Jew they can find.

Personally, I think he ought to abandon the settlements, and abandon the West Bank. Let them do what they want. Give them a chance to show. And when they start attacking Israel, which they will unquestionably do, attack without hesitation, and push them over the borders into their neighbors territory and build a new wall. And if the neighbours attack, then keep pushing.

[Big Guy]

The European Commission has introduced new labelling guidelines for products produced in illegal Israeli settlements in the occupied Palestinian territories.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/09/israeli-anger-eu-agrees-label-settlement-products-150920100028754.html

"The European Union, in line with international law, does not recognise Israel’s sovereignty over the territories occupied by Israel since June 1967, namely the Golan Heights, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and does not consider them to be part of Israel’s territory, irrespective of their legal status under domestic Israeli law."

Looks like the EU is reacting rationally to what the Israelis doing to the Palestinians. As expected, Israeli authorities are playing the anti-Semite card. Not too many folks are falling for this. Time for the Israelis to play the Holocaust card. That one still seems to work.

[Guest]

The European Commission has introduced new labelling guidelines for products produced in illegal Israeli settlements in the occupied Palestinian territories.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/09/israeli-anger-eu-agrees-label-settlement-products-150920100028754.html

Good. It'll make it easier to provide support to Israel.

Gotta love those Europeans. Always thinking.

[Moonlight Graham]

The European Commission has introduced new labelling guidelines for products produced in illegal Israeli settlements in the occupied Palestinian territories.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/09/israeli-anger-eu-agrees-label-settlement-products-150920100028754.html

"The European Union, in line with international law, does not recognise Israel’s sovereignty over the territories occupied by Israel since June 1967, namely the Golan Heights, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and does not consider them to be part of Israel’s territory, irrespective of their legal status under domestic Israeli law."

That's excellent. I don't agree with blanket BDS movements, but this I agree with. We need to pressure everyone to comply to international law.

[bush_cheney2004]

EU labels have nothing to do with American Israeli relations. In 2010, the EU banned "immoral" seal products coming from Canada and Norway.

Edited November 12, 2015 by bush_cheney2004

[DogOnPorch]

EU labels have nothing to do with American Israeli relations. In 2010, the EU banned "immoral" seal products coming from Canada and Norway.

Don't you just love the talk of boycotts on Jewish products...errr Israeli products...well, it is rather close to Crystal Night (Nov 9th).

Greetings, btw.

[jacee]

Don't you just love the talk of boycotts on Jewish products...errr Israeli products...well, it is rather close to Crystal Night (Nov 9th).

Greetings, btw.

Greetings DoP.

I haven't heard of any boycott of "Jewish products" worldwide, as you try to imply.

But yup ...

Boycott of Israeli products illegally produced on stolen "settlement" land.

But also may be boycott of Israeli products in general to apply political pressure for resolution.

It's a strategy for peace, not war.

,

Edited November 12, 2015 by jacee

[DogOnPorch]

Greetings DoP.

I haven't heard of any boycott of "Jewish products" worldwide, as you try to imply.

But yup ...

Boycott of Israeli products illegally produced on stolen "settlement" land.

But also may be boycott of Israeli products in general to apply political pressure for resolution.

.

I'm well aware that in these post-WW2 times, folks are very careful to say "Israel".

[jacee]

I'm well aware that in these post-WW2 times, folks are very careful to say "Israel".

I'll consider your evidence that the boycott extends to all Jews everywhere.

.

[DogOnPorch]

I'll consider your evidence that the boycott extends to all Jews everywhere.

.

A Hungarian Joke: During the June 1967 war, a Hungarian meets his friend. "Why do you look so happy?" he asks. "I heard that the Israelis shot down six Soviet-made MiGs today," his friend replies. The next day, the friend looks even more jubilant. "The Israelis downed another eight MiGs," he announces. On the third day, the friend is crestfallen. "What happened? Didn't the Israelis down any MiGs today?" the man asks. "They did," the friend answers, "But today someone told me that the Israelis are Jews!

[Argus]

Greetings DoP.

I haven't heard of any boycott of "Jewish products" worldwide, as you try to imply.

But yup ...

Boycott of Israeli products illegally produced on stolen "settlement" land.

But also may be boycott of Israeli products in general to apply political pressure for resolution.

It's a strategy for peace, not war.

,

Funny how nobody is boycotting Chinese products despite the brutality of their government and how it is oppressing its religious minorities. There's no organized effort to boycott Russian goods other than the official ones employed by government. No one is worried about boycotting Indian goods despite its brutality, including rape and murder on a massive scale in various provinces, and nobody is boycotting Turkish goods despite how its murderous Islamist regime restarted a war to gain power and has destroyed freedom of the press. Then again, none of them are Jews. And those who are most zealous in their determination to punish Israel are virtually all anti-Semites hiding their hate and bigotry behind a thin cloak of pious concern about human rights.

[jacee]

Funny how nobody is boycotting Chinese products despite the brutality of their government and how it is oppressing its religious minorities. There's no organized effort to boycott Russian goods other than the official ones employed by government. No one is worried about boycotting Indian goods despite its brutality, including rape and murder on a massive scale in various provinces, and nobody is boycotting Turkish goods despite how its murderous Islamist regime restarted a war to gain power and has destroyed freedom of the press. Then again, none of them are Jews. And those who are most zealous in their determination to punish Israel are virtually all anti-Semites hiding their hate and bigotry behind a thin cloak of pious concern about human rights.

I think people expect better of Israel, including the many Jews involved in the boycotts.

.

Edited November 12, 2015 by jacee

[Argus]

I think people expect better of Israel, including the many Jews involved in the boycotts.

.

And why would they expect more of Israel? Why would they hold a country they loath and like to compare to apartheid south Africa and Nazi Germany to a higher standard than, say, the Palestinian governments?

The people behind these sorts of anti-Israel stunts always love to find a few idiotic liberal Jews to include among them so they can shield their own bigotry. But it's damn clear what the motivation is given none of these people have any similar concerns about the human rights abuses, the much more severe human rights abuses, taking place all around the world, and never complain about the human rights abuses coming from Palestinian governments.

Since it seems clear human rights are not that big a concern - some of them even post approving messages about Russia and Iran, for example, then one must consider what their true motivation is. And antisemitism seems the logical answer.

[jacee]

And why would they expect more of Israel? Why would they hold a country they loath and like to compare to apartheid south Africa and Nazi Germany to a higher standard than, say, the Palestinian governments?

The people behind these sorts of anti-Israel stunts always love to find a few idiotic liberal Jews to include among them so they can shield their own bigotry. But it's damn clear what the motivation is given none of these people have any similar concerns about the human rights abuses, the much more severe human rights abuses, taking place all around the world, and never complain about the human rights abuses coming from Palestinian governments.

Since it seems clear human rights are not that big a concern - some of them even post approving messages about Russia and Iran, for example, then one must consider what their true motivation is. And antisemitism seems the logical answer.

Well it's obvious you'll never be part of a solution, just as the current right wing regime in Israel never will either.

.

Edited November 12, 2015 by jacee

[Argus]

Well it's obvious you'll never be part of a solution, just as the current right wing regime in Israel never will either.

.

If you mean I'm not going to mindlessly attack Israel on behalf of a collection of brutal backward regimes who treat their own people like shit, well, you're right.

[jacee]

If you mean I'm not going to mindlessly attack Israel on behalf of a collection of brutal backward regimes who treat their own people like shit, well, you're right.

BDS is not "on behalf of a collection of brutal backward regimes".

You're not making sense.

[Argus]

BDS is not "on behalf of a collection of brutal backward regimes".

You're not making sense.

I had this argument before back in the 1980s about Rhodesia and South Africa. My position then was that I wasn't going to do anything to help what I saw as black bastards overthrow the white bastards who were in charge. After all, at least the white bastards were on our side, while the black bastards were unlikely to be.

I was partially wrong about South Africa, but only because Nelson Mandela turned out to be an exceptional man. It is now sinking into the shithole status the former Rhodesia, now Zimbabwe has occupied for so long.

You want me to be outraged and take action to get the Israelis out of Palestine. Why? Do you honestly think life will be better for anyone afterward? I don't. I've seen nothing, NOTHING from Hamas or the Palestinian Authority which leads me to believe they are anything but brutal, autocratic and corrupt, just like every other regime in the middle east. There are no Arab democracies, and the first one is not going to be a tiny, backward independent Palestine with no economic or physical or educational resources.

[jacee]

I had this argument before back in the 1980s about Rhodesia and South Africa. My position then was that I wasn't going to do anything to help what I saw as black bastards overthrow the white bastards who were in charge. After all, at least the white bastards were on our side, while the black bastards were unlikely to be.

I was partially wrong about South Africa, but only because Nelson Mandela turned out to be an exceptional man. It is now sinking into the shithole status the former Rhodesia, now Zimbabwe has occupied for so long.

You want me to be outraged and take action to get the Israelis out of Palestine. Why? Do you honestly think life will be better for anyone afterward? I don't. I've seen nothing, NOTHING from Hamas or the Palestinian Authority which leads me to believe they are anything but brutal, autocratic and corrupt, just like every other regime in the middle east. There are no Arab democracies, and the first one is not going to be a tiny, backward independent Palestine with no economic or physical or educational resources.

Are you arguing for the status quo then?

Are you arguing for Israel's continued expansion into Palestinian territory?

Absorbing the Palestinians into Israel?

What are your suggestions?

.

Edited November 12, 2015 by jacee

[marcus]

You want me to be outraged and take action to get the Israelis out of Palestine. Why? Do you honestly think life will be better for anyone afterward? I don't.

That's because you are ignorant about the situation and apparently have no clue what kind of a condition they live in. That, plus the fact that you have a bigoted view of the Arabs, which prevents you from considering that they could prosper...so you are suggesting the status quo should continue.

Your personal opinion aside, if you believe in the law, that should be the starting point in accepting that Israel needs to get out of the occupied territories.

When I say occupied territory, I am not talking about Israel. Some try to confuse the matter and blend the occupied territory with Israel and begin to throw panic attacks, saying that it's a proposal to eliminate Israel.

You may want to educate yourself on the Arabs. Lebanon, for example, is a democracy and they have a fairly high educated population. Many Arab countries have dictators / autocrats in power who were installed by the British/Americans and they're able to continue due to the support by them.

Edited November 12, 2015 by marcus

[bush_cheney2004]

Looks like U.S.-Israeli relations are doing just fine...they get to buy the same smart bombs that Canada buys:

WASHINGTON, May 19, 2015 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to Israel for Joint Direct Attack Munition Tail Kits, munitions, and associated equipment, parts and logistical support for an estimated cost of $1.879 billion. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale on May 18, 2015.

The Government of Israel has requested a possible sale of 14,500 KMU-556C/B Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM) tail kits consisting of 10,000 for Mk-84; 500 for Mk-83; and,4,000 for Mk-82; 3,500 Mk-82 bombs; 4,500 Mk-83 bombs; 50 BLU-113 bombs; 4,100 GBU-39 Small Diameter bombs; 1,500 Mk-83 Paveway kits; 700 BLU-109 Paveway kits; 3,000 AGM-114K/R Hellfire Missiles, 250 AIM-120C Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles; and 500 DSU-38A/B Detector Laser Illuminated Target kits for JDAMs. The total estimated cost $1.879 billion.

The United States is committed to the security of Israel, and it is vital to U.S. national interests to assist Israel to develop and maintain a strong and ready self-defense capability. This proposed sale is consistent with those objectives.

http://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/israel-joint-direct-attack-munition-tail-kits-and-munitions

Edited November 13, 2015 by bush_cheney2004

[Rue]

From the article:

The US gives tens of billions in military foreign aid to Israel. Israel has no real allies in the region, they're pretty isolated, everyone wants them gone. Take away US support and Israel is in a bad position.

To start with Israel receives no foreign aid from the U.S.

Secondly, Israel of course has allies in the region and in the world other than the U.S.

How about you at least make an effort to find out what ther military exchanges between the US and Israel are, and how they are based.

Secondly if you do not understand who Israel is allies with, instead of making blanket statements they have none, go find out.

[Rue]

Looks like U.S.-Israeli relations are doing just fine...they get to buy the same smart bombs that Canada buys:

WASHINGTON, May 19, 2015 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to Israel for Joint Direct Attack Munition Tail Kits, munitions, and associated equipment, parts and logistical support for an estimated cost of $1.879 billion. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale on May 18, 2015.

The Government of Israel has requested a possible sale of 14,500 KMU-556C/B Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM) tail kits consisting of 10,000 for Mk-84; 500 for Mk-83; and,4,000 for Mk-82; 3,500 Mk-82 bombs; 4,500 Mk-83 bombs; 50 BLU-113 bombs; 4,100 GBU-39 Small Diameter bombs; 1,500 Mk-83 Paveway kits; 700 BLU-109 Paveway kits; 3,000 AGM-114K/R Hellfire Missiles, 250 AIM-120C Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles; and 500 DSU-38A/B Detector Laser Illuminated Target kits for JDAMs. The total estimated cost $1.879 billion.

The United States is committed to the security of Israel, and it is vital to U.S. national interests to assist Israel to develop and maintain a strong and ready self-defense capability. This proposed sale is consistent with those objectives.

http://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/israel-joint-direct-attack-munition-tail-kits-and-munitions

No no no. We have a new doctrine. Unless two leaders like each other, they shouldn't meet. See foreign policy is not about complex issues that transcend individual personalities, its only about whether we "like" each other. You see Bush? You are wrong. Its all about whether we like one another.

Hope that clarifies it. You make things so complicated bring up other issues. Can we just keep this limited to simple easy to understand concepts such as "like". Like you know, this is like, about like whether people like each other.

Edited November 13, 2015 by Rue