What's in the TPP

[Michael Hardner]

Never said they were, I'm just trying to bring a little reality to this discussion. Trade deals don't always mean you will pay less for everything, they can also mean you will pay more for some things.

Ok, but all things considered... they are expected to improve.

[Wilber]

Ok, but all things considered... they are expected to improve.

Maybe but you will still be paying more for some things.

[-1=e^ipi]

what do you replace them with that can add the same amount of value to a local economy.

Why would you need to replace it with anything?

[ReeferMadness]

The TPP will overturn BC privacy laws that require that personal data collected by government be stored in Canada. This was a huge issue in BC about a decade ago when the Ministry of Health was outsourcing programs to US firms.

Section 30.1 of our Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act (FIPPA) clearly requires public bodies to “ensure that personal information in its custody or under its control is stored only in Canada and accessed only in Canada.” This section had been enacted in 2004 after public outcry over the outsourcing of BC’s pharmacare information to a US company.

Under the US patriot act, the US government can get access to any data held by US companies. The FIPPA was designed exressly to prevent this.

I guess that privacy is unimportant in the face of saving a few nickels for a jug of milk.

[bush_cheney2004]

Under the US patriot act, the US government can get access to any data held by US companies. The FIPPA was designed exressly to prevent this.

Pure political theatre....the U.S. could and can access such information without regard to FIPPA or the TPP.

[-1=e^ipi]

Under the US patriot act, the US government can get access to any data held by US companies. The FIPPA was designed exressly to prevent this.

Is it really a big issue? Oh no, pharmacare information might be used for companies or governments to make better decisions! The horror!

Aren't you a person that was complaining about the missing long form census?

I guess that privacy is unimportant in the face of saving a few nickels for a jug of milk.

For some people, it makes a big difference between starving and not starving.

[Wilber]

Pure political theatre....the U.S. could and can access such information without regard to FIPPA or the TPP.

Probably, I think it is completely unacceptable for Canadian governments to be storing Canadian's personal information offshore.

[eyeball]

I guess that privacy is unimportant in the face of saving a few nickels for a jug of milk.

The secrecy of the trade negotiations clearly indicated what was most important.

[ReeferMadness]

Is it really a big issue? Oh no, pharmacare information might be used for companies or governments to make better decisions! The horror!

I don't know why you're being so deliberately obtuse about a fundamental issue. Privacy means that an organization uses information only for the purpose for which it is given. That means I give my information to the BC Government for the purpose of providing health care. Maximus, which has contracts with the BC Government, is not to use or provide the information to anyone else. However, under the Patriot Act, Maximus can be compelled to provide said information to the US Government for any reason it wants.

Is there anything in that which is too difficult for you to wrap your head around?

[-1=e^ipi]

I don't know why you're being so deliberately obtuse about a fundamental issue. Privacy means that an organization uses information only for the purpose for which it is given. That means I give my information to the BC Government for the purpose of providing health care. Maximus, which has contracts with the BC Government, is not to use or provide the information to anyone else. However, under the Patriot Act, Maximus can be compelled to provide said information to the US Government for any reason it wants.

There is often a tradeoff between privacy and safety.

[ToadBrother]

There is often a tradeoff between privacy and safety.

Do you feel safer?

[ReeferMadness]

There is often a tradeoff between privacy and safety.

Another disposable comment - are you on the Harper talking point distribution list?

How does Homeland Security having access to my medical data improve security? More to the point, when did Harper even discuss trading away privacy? People who worship at the church of economic fundamentalism are so convinced of the righteousness of their cause, they'll trade anything away for a trade agreement - even if they can't identify any definite benefits.

[eyeball]

I felt safer when Canadians weren't so dismissive and cavalier towards other people's privacy.

[bush_cheney2004]

I felt safer when Canadians weren't so dismissive and cavalier towards other people's privacy.

If Canadians were so concerned about their privacy, they would not volunteer so much personal information to American social media and consumer shopping web sites. Crossing the border for a cheaper gallon of milk costs more than they think.

[eyeball]

Like I said, I felt safer when Canadians weren't so dismissive and cavalier towards other people's privacy.

I could care less what they do with their own.

[bush_cheney2004]

Like I said, I felt safer when Canadians weren't so dismissive and cavalier towards other people's privacy.

I could care less what they do with their own.

Good.....we agree, and the TPP will just be business as usual. Canadian privacy is an oxymoron.

[Bonam]

There is often a tradeoff between privacy and safety.

Proof? I fundamentally disagree, there is no tradeoff between security and freedom. The more you compromise your freedoms to try to achieve security, the less secure you become.

[Bonam]

For some people, it makes a big difference between starving and not starving.

How many people in Canada are literally starving? Not "below the poverty line" or some such meaningless statement, but actually "starving"?

[ReeferMadness]

Ok, but all things considered... they are expected to improve.

How do you know that? Through this entire miserable debate, I've heard of literally dozens of things that could get worse but nobody has pointed to one tangible thing that will improve, other than apparently, I might save a few nickels on milk laden with growth hormones. There seems to be an endless amount of faith in right wing economics. CBC had a call in show today with a university professor who was supporting the deal and even he didn't have a single tangible good point about the deal. The most compelling case he could make was that if the US signed, we have to sign.

Things that could be worse:

• Extension of copyright will add costs for education
• Extension of IP laws will make drugs more expensive
• Billions we need to pay off dairy farms
• Billions we need to pay off the auto sector
• Potential for lost jobs in the auto sector
• Potential for lost jobs in the dairy sector
• Potential for growth hormones and antibiotics in our milk
• More opportunity for our government to get sued for environmental or labour laws
• Loss of sovereignty in a multitude of areas
• Loss of control over government data
• Loss of control over our food supply
• Privacy issues
• Balsillie's concerns about IP rules favoring established US interests
• Further entrenchment of Canada's economy as a supplier of raw materials and the multitude of problems that go with that
• Unreasonable rules over alleged IP infringement (ISP's will remove content based on allegations of infringement, no proof required)

The lack of transparency over this whole deal is bullsh*t. Obviously Harper sold the farm because he bet Canadian were so apathetic that they would trust him to negotiate in secret. It's 8,000 pages and nobody seems to know really what's in the damn thing.

This whole thing makes a travesty of democracy.

[bush_cheney2004]

Nobody is forcing Canada to ratify TPP...but I seriously doubt that even its worst critics can make the case for stealing IP as in Canada's national interest. Those who are afraid to compete are afraid of TPP.

[-1=e^ipi]

Do you feel safer?

Did you feel safer by the removal of the long form census? 'Privacy concerns' were why it was removed.

How does Homeland Security having access to my medical data improve security?

No idea. I was not referring to that specifically. It might result in better decisions made by governments and corporations which may improve health care in the future.

I felt safer when Canadians weren't so dismissive and cavalier towards other people's privacy.

I think privacy has value. I just don't think it vetos everything else.

[-1=e^ipi]

Proof? I fundamentally disagree, there is no tradeoff between security and freedom.

I said privacy, not freedom.

How many people in Canada are literally starving? Not "below the poverty line" or some such meaningless statement, but actually "starving"?

No idea, and I don't want to bother looking it up. Point is that there are lots of people in Canada that are not well off. There are undernourished children, homeless people, etc. Reducing the price of the food would help these individuals greatly.

Extension of copyright will add costs for education

Extension of IP laws will make drugs more expensive

Those also have the benefit of incentivizing creation of new technologies, drugs, books, etc.

Billions we need to pay off dairy farms

Billions we need to pay off the auto sector

That's not part of the TPP. That's the Canadian government being stupid. I'd prefer the government not give them anything.

Potential for growth hormones and antibiotics in our milk

Please point to all these health problems that New Zealand has due to all this awful milk they are drinking.

More opportunity for our government to get sued for environmental or labour laws

This also encourages investment. It is less desirable to invest in a country if that country might expropriate all of your stuff. Do you want less investment in Canada to make it poorer?

Loss of sovereignty in a multitude of areas

So? I care about how it affects the well being of society. The hurt feelings of nationalists that care about 'sovereignty' are tiny in comparison.

Loss of control over government data

The horrors of data sharing to make better decisions! I guess we need to axe that evil long form census then!

Loss of control over our food supply

1. Trade allows countries to take advantage of comparative advantage, which allows them to be richer.

2. Countries that trade together are less likely to wage war with each other. This deal increases world peace.

3. Maybe you should try living in North Korea. They have 100% control over their food supply.

Privacy issues

If these privacy issues were such a concern, maybe our government should have tried to get better privacy results in the negotiations instead of just trying to protect the dairy, egg and poultry industries at the expense of the poorest in Canada.

Further entrenchment of Canada's economy as a supplier of raw materials and the multitude of problems that go with that

The horrors of comparative advantage!

North Korea's looking really appealing now, eh?

Unreasonable rules over alleged IP infringement (ISP's will remove content based on allegations of infringement, no proof required

This is a pretty legitimate concern.

[Bonam]

I said privacy, not freedom.

You can't have freedom with privacy and you can't have privacy without freedom. They are deeply related.

No idea, and I don't want to bother looking it up. Point is that there are lots of people in Canada that are not well off. There are undernourished children, homeless people, etc. Reducing the price of the food would help these individuals greatly.

"Not well off", sure. As for undernourished children and homeless people... there are programs in place that provide children and the homeless with the food they need. Anyone who has the ability to go to a store and buy cheaper milk also has the ability to go to use any of these programs.

[-1=e^ipi]

You can't have freedom with privacy and you can't have privacy without freedom.

They are not necessarily the same, but definitions vary. Could you please provide your definitions of freedom and privacy?

there are programs in place that provide children and the homeless with the food they need. Anyone who has the ability to go to a store and buy cheaper milk also has the ability to go to use any of these programs.

1. There is stigma associated with these programs as well as lack of knowledge of these problems so not everyone will use programs when they need to.

2. The leisure time of people has value, as well as their consumption and their freedom. So this is not ideal.

3. Do you really think that this is the most economically efficient way to help poorer people? The programs have to get their food from somewhere and if the food is more expensive the programs will be more expensive.

4. How are children supposed to be able to go to a store and buy cheaper milk? As for the parents, you realize that there are abusive or neglectful parents out there, right?

[Bonam]

They are not necessarily the same, but definitions vary. Could you please provide your definitions of freedom and privacy?

I did not say they are the same, merely that each is necessary for the other.

1. There is stigma associated with these programs as well as lack of knowledge of these problems so not everyone will use programs when they need to.

2. The leisure time of people has value, as well as their consumption and their freedom. So this is not ideal.

3. Do you really think that this is the most economically efficient way to help poorer people? The programs have to get their food from somewhere and if the food is more expensive the programs will be more expensive.

4. How are children supposed to be able to go to a store and buy cheaper milk? As for the parents, you realize that there are abusive or neglectful parents out there, right?

Gonna take a step back here and return to the original point. Of the very few people in Canada who are literally starving, very few, if any, will have their situation measurably improved by a slight reduction in the cost of dairy. This is especially true if one also considers the reality that deals like TPP tend to move low skilled jobs out of high cost countries like Canada, and these low skilled jobs are likely the ones most accessible to people who are at risk of starvation.

There are, I'm sure, many advantages to the TPP, but saving from the grips of starvation masses of malnourished children by providing them with cheaper cheese is not one of them.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Bonam