The cost of Migrants

marcus · September 9, 2015

If we opened up recruitment from Europe right now we could fill our entire yearly quota with young European university graduates who speak English/French and have similar cultural values to ours. The government's own stats show that European immigrants are the most economically successful of all geographic regions. Why aren't we doing so? Because they're mostly White, and the Conservatives are terrified of being accused of preferring White immigrants.

Once again I request that you educate yourself before trying to pass your opinion as facts.

Canada has special agreements with most European countries, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea and Taiwan, where people under 35 (30 in some), can get an open work permit to come to Canada. So Canada is already targeting Europeans. The name of the program is IEC.

CITIZEN_2015 · September 9, 2015

If we opened up recruitment from Europe right now we could fill our entire yearly quota with young European university graduates who speak English/French and have similar cultural values to ours. The government's own stats show that European immigrants are the most economically successful of all geographic regions. Why aren't we doing so? Because they're mostly White, and the Conservatives are terrified of being accused of preferring White immigrants.

My point lost completely and what you say is the complete reverse of what I said and you quoted. I said there is no place for those who discriminate base on race and now you say we choose young Europeans!!!!!!! There are many people who also speak English or French in many other parts of the world and have education and skills to offer and are adopted to respect individual freedom and democracy and respect equality of races, religion and gender and orientation (though percentage is higher among Europeans. So although I accept we may be taking more from Europe but I don't close the door on other parts of the world based on color of skin as I think your post is indicating or suggesting to do.

Edited September 10, 2015 by CITIZEN_2015

PIK · September 9, 2015

If I remember correctly it was chretien government that started to bring in more africans then Europeans, French speaking Africans at that.

Rue · September 9, 2015

Your comment Westcoast that Muslims are more active in their community educating about domestic violence than non Muslims is made up, You fabricated it. Its an example of liberal patronization and pandering-a feel good aside tossed out. Its bull. With due respect you have zero proof of that and you insult in fact progressive Muslims and Muslim feminists fighting in their communities to get it to acknowledge that the way they define and depict women an duse their religion to beat and define women as inferior is a huge problem.

Not sure what liberal world of fantasy you live in but in Toronto domestic violence in the Muslim community is a fact, its wide spread and its most often not reported because the women do not dare speak out.

Not sure what fantasy world you live in but in Toronto Muslims are now opting out of the public schools claiming they do not want any sex education for their children.

You know you can pander and patronize and make such comments and I suppose it may make you feel liberal and tolerant but its absurd. Also criticizing Muslim fundamentalism and its treatment of gays and women, well sooner or later you do good liberals will have to deal with it because its clashing and conflicting as we speak and people who want to present Muslim culture as warm and fuzzy will have to deal with the fact it stands against all the values you think you stand for and they will be part of.

The irony is you are empowering the very Muslims progressive Muslims are trying to challenge.

scribblet · September 9, 2015

...............

Not sure what fantasy world you live in but in Toronto Muslims are now opting out of the public schools claiming they do not want any sex education for their children.

You know you can pander and patronize and make such comments and I suppose it may make you feel liberal and tolerant but its absurd. Also criticizing Muslim fundamentalism and its treatment of gays and women, well sooner or later you do good liberals will have to deal with it because its clashing and conflicting as we speak and people who want to present Muslim culture as warm and fuzzy will have to deal with the fact it stands against all the values you think you stand for and they will be part of.

The irony is you are empowering the very Muslims progressive Muslims are trying to challenge.

Yes, many are fleeing war but many of these will be religious people tied to vicious rebel groups or allied with a nasty regime tied to ethnic/religious violence. Their attitudes towards women is just one sticking point, why would we welcome such a socially regressive culture. We have to screen these people very carefully, to not do so will end in tears and civil war for the host country.

Rue · September 9, 2015

No PIK it was not Chretiens. It started long before that. It started in the early 60ès between Jean Lesage and Pearson. Maybe one could argue wit Diefenbaker as well. Quebec stated it wanted autonomy over immigration to Quebec. It argued immigrants to Quebec should be French speaking. After the Lesage government was the Union National with Daniel Johnson, then Bourassa and Levesque and they all had the same position-they insisted Quebec being French could only take French speaking immigrants so the feds obliged. The feds claimed immigration policy must be colour blind, thus Quebec was to be the source for French speaking Africans and Muslims from Morrocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Lebanon, and Haitiens.

Quebec separatists and nationalists then suddenly realized ooopsy, their province was getting browner and came up with the equivalent concept of Aryan only they called it purelaines. It referred to a real Quebecer as being descended from people of France, i.e., white.

See the Quebecois separatists who Mulcair and do gooder liberals kissed up to and appeased were hey now racist. I could have told you that. The same holds true today. The very same people saying take in Syrians will be the same liberal knee jerks who will be screaming bloody murder in a few years when they realize they all want to opt out of Canadian values such as equality of women and gays.

Take a look, its not conservative people freaking out now in Toronto-its liberal knee jerk fools who think Canada will be all things to all people now horrified their pets of the week-cozy cute Muslims suddenly snarl at them and resist being patted, i.e., assimilated.

The topic you skirt around is assimilation. I do not give a damn like you who the person is and I wont pussy foot with sugar coated bs-the fact is fundamentalist Muslims like any fundamentalist religious group of any religion will resist assimilation precisely because people like you argue they can be whatever they want whenever they want.

The point some of us are making is that something has to give when you become Canadian and this denial of difference in valies and the factors that make people resist assimilation into Canadian society is a crock.

Next point-all you knee jerk reactors take note-although Syrians are your trend of the weak, there are far more refugees coming from other countries not that any of you seem to notice. You typically select one group and shut every other group out of the discussion on refugees and migrants trying to get here. Most migrants trying to get to Canada are economic migrants not political refugees escaping poverty and lack of water and food.

I suppose focusing on more then one cause celebre a week is too much. Guess all those Africans dying was a trend that came and went just like the Haiti earthquake or Tsunami wave-oh yah remember those....

Rue · September 9, 2015

I again make it clear, progressive Muslims are good people and will help us build Canada like any other people who have learned to distance themselves from the literal world of God and have learned to put into practice in simple deeds, tolerance. All communities, all ethnic groups have their fundamentalists and extremists and we have to be prepared to understand that refusing to discuss how they will impact on taking in Muslims is not helping the problem. We need to work with progressive Muslims not molly coddle extremist fundamentalist Muslims.

I support any Muslim willing to compromise, assimilate, tolerate. I welcome them. Islam per se is not my problem-fundamentalist religions of any kind are.

I criticize the fundamentalist Jewish and Christian communities using the same criteria. I hate everyone.

Our problem is simple-we have a charter that guarantees the right of people once they step foot on Canadian soil to demand rights immediately and claim their religious rights or cultural rights allow them to opt out of certain Canadian moral and legal values. Its real-its an issue not going away-it is an issue never contemplated by the creators of the Charter, and something legally and morally has to be defined because the sense of self entitlement and everybody being able to be whatever they want will not build a nation but destroy it in chaos.

Whether we like it or not, we will have to define basic Canadian values everyone must be prepared to live with and not opt out of. People who have strict Sharia law beliefs are not ready to hear that. They are operating on the assumption they can continue their beliefs here in Canada even if they cause direct conflict with Canadian values. Its not just Muslims its many ethnic groups. Its not racism to say that.I can not and will not opt out of Canadian laws for Rabbinical laws because I am a Jew. This is not some country of convenience where I pick and choose from the menu what values I like and then ignore the rest.

I apply the same standard to my Jewishness as I argue others should follow. I speak only for myself but most minorities like me feel the same way. We did not come to Canada to tear it down and resist building it.

We learned from the natives, British and French about their history and respect it. Then we brought our strengths t add to them and criticized our own weaknesses. It did not make us weaker. I am just as much a Jew as I am a Canadian-it does not compromise my being a Jew becauseI put Canadian values first.

If I want to worship in a certain way I should not expect I have the right to demand others accommodate it publically. Its a private matter for me in private to exercise. That is the classic conservative approach to it and I follow that. When I use conservative I mean, Edmund Burke. When I criticize knee jerk liberals I mean in the sense of Jeremy Bentham liberalism.

I do not refer to Canadian political parties when I do that. I believe ethnicity, religion, homosexuality, abortion is a private matter and is to be separated from the state. I do not believe the state should order anyone to accommodate anyone publically who has beliefs that are bias against others.

I believe for example the state should only be involved with sex if someone is forcing it on those without capacity, consent. Otherwise go in your bed room and play tonsil hockey I do not give a damn. You want to cover your face, teach your kids sex is dirty poo poo and gays are dirty poo poo do it at home but do not expect the state to accommodate you. You drive a car show your damn face. You appear in a public place, for security reasons you bloody well be prepared to show your face. You want to go to a public ceremony celebrating inclusivity and want to impose symbols of exclusivity, piss off.

You want politically correct, not from me. Political correctness is for me passive bigotry.

kimmy · September 9, 2015

If you dig a bit deeper into Muslim leaders in Canada they do not condone violence against women and are doing probably more to educate their community against violence towards women then Canada is doing for non Muslim perpetrators.

Some might be, but others aren't. We've had incidents of imams, often ones brought in straight from (and sponsored by) Saudi Arabia, caught saying shocking things. British documentaries have done undercover filming in mosques and found imams saying things quite different from the public face they'd like to put on.

Why does everyone keep bringing up Muslims, Muslims, Muslims about these things? Sikhs were the ones who were involved in a lot of the most publicized "honour" killings. They were also the ones involved in sex-selection abortions. But here we are, whining and crying about Muslims. We also rarely hear on these forums about domestic violence and domestic homicide in general. It's always in relation to Muslims without any regard for any other victims. The disparity in concern shines a giant spotlight on bigotry bias at play here.

We're talking "Muslims Muslims Muslims" because right now it's a large group of Muslims we're talking about drop-shipping into Canadian communities.

I think we can agree that domestic violence and domestic homicide are issues in general, but that's not what I'm talking about here. I'm not claiming that bringing in thousands of Muslims will increase the rate of domestic violence or homicide. I'm arguing that bringing in tens of thousands of religious conservatives is a threat to the social progress we've made. And I'd feel the same if we were talking about drop-shipping 25,000 fundamentalist Christians into Canada.

-k

Edited September 9, 2015 by kimmy

Peter F · September 9, 2015

Our problem is simple-we have a charter that guarantees the right of people once they step foot on Canadian soil to demand rights immediately and claim their religious rights or cultural rights allow them to opt out of certain Canadian moral and legal values. Its real-its an issue not going away-it is an issue never contemplated by the creators of the Charter, and something legally and morally has to be defined because the sense of self entitlement and everybody being able to be whatever they want will not build a nation but destroy it in chaos.

But Rue! Who ever claimed that immigrants/refugees will get to opt out of the Law? They, and anyone else for that matter, can certainly advocate for the changing of laws can't they? Of course they can. This is a free country. You and me and anyone else can believe whatever the hell we want.

Now, criminality! There's something we can screen for - and do and have - screened for.

Believe thieves should have their hands cut off? Who gives a shit. Has the applicant actually cut peoples hands off? Now that matters.

People believe women should wear chadors? So? Wear a chador and welcome. Oh but you beat your wife for not wearing a chador? Sorry you're out.

Criminality is what matters Rue, not thoughts.

kimmy · September 9, 2015

per StatsCan (albeit immigration related):

if one accepts your premise, and that screening will occur (which, of course, it will), it presumes your boogeyman will filter through those checks. I would suggest the onus is on you to speak to why you believe those checks/screening will be any less diligent than those that reflect upon the above historical/recent StatsCan summary stats. Alternatively, you could also help make your case by speaking to Canada directly, in relation to your stated 'the people", and how/why you feel your boogeyman has also filtered through into Canada today, vis-a-vis, as you said, "women's rights, gay rights, tolerance of diversity, and so on".

a broad reference from the Canadian Association of Refugee Lawyers... a challenge to it with real data/facts is encouraged:

9. Refugee Claimants do not pose a threat to Canada’s security

Refugee claimants do not pose threats to Canada’s national security – they are seeking security and protection from threats to their own lives. Canadian law excludes refugee claimants if they are found to be inadmissible on the basis of national security, serious criminality, organized criminality or human rights violations. Refugee claimants go through a front-end security screening, in place since November 2001. Through this process, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service checks all refugee claimants on arrival in Canada. Since the screening was put in place, the number of claimants found to represent any kind of security concern has been statistically insignificant.

now, certainly... security is not your implied social thinking/standing emphasis... but it's a reflection upon it. Which kind of brings the discussion back again to how well screening is performed and... how well refugees integrate with, adopt to and accept so-called "Canadian values"... presuming they don't already!

You answered your own question there. The information you provided pertains to screening security threats, not regressive views.

If you were a gay person, would you be excited about the prospect of bringing in thousands of people from a place where homosexuality is a crime that gets you thrown in prison?

-k

kimmy · September 9, 2015

Yes, many are fleeing war but many of these will be religious people tied to vicious rebel groups or allied with a nasty regime tied to ethnic/religious violence. Their attitudes towards women is just one sticking point, why would we welcome such a socially regressive culture. We have to screen these people very carefully, to not do so will end in tears and civil war for the host country.

Truthfully, after spending a few weeks at your Coffeetime forum, I think that you and your cranky old friends have more in common with the Muslims than with me.

-k

Peter F · September 9, 2015

Edit: in reply to Kimmy post 110

But we don't screen anyone else from more, shall I say, 'Argus acceptable' places? Wether they believe or not in gay rights isn't part of the screening process. Why apply some moral standard here but not there? Believing that homosexuality is or should be a crime is not all that unusual in this country right now. Thus court cases and human rights tribunals that don't criminalize thought but do indeed illegal actions.

Those things - courts and Law - aren't going away. They may change over time - but then thats politics in a democracy.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Peter F

cybercoma · September 9, 2015

That makes no sense. So you are not disputing CC's figures on Sikh domestic abuse but you're just not really as concerned because they are better "performing immigrants after Jews"?

So, it's not as big a deal to kill your wife as long as you're working hard? What the heck?

Jesus. I missed that post, but damn. The misogyny is insane on this forum sometimes.

cybercoma · September 9, 2015

Yes, many are fleeing war but many of these will be religious people tied to vicious rebel groups or allied with a nasty regime tied to ethnic/religious violence.

Do you just make things up for fun or do you actually believe this stuff?

cybercoma · September 9, 2015

I think we can agree that domestic violence and domestic homicide are issues in general, but that's not what I'm talking about here. I'm not claiming that bringing in thousands of Muslims will increase the rate of domestic violence or homicide. I'm arguing that bringing in tens of thousands of religious conservatives is a threat to the social progress we've made. And I'd feel the same if we were talking about drop-shipping 25,000 fundamentalist Christians into Canada.

-k

I guess that's your opinion about what might happen in the future. It's my belief that our society will change them more than they will change our society, if these people are as religious and conservative as you say.

cybercoma · September 9, 2015

You answered your own question there. The information you provided pertains to screening security threats, not regressive views.

If you were a gay person, would you be excited about the prospect of bringing in thousands of people from a place where homosexuality is a crime that gets you thrown in prison?

-k

I would only care that the laws here don't allow for homosexuals to be thrown in prison. Like Peter F was saying, it matters what people do, not what they think. As much as I disagree with people, they're entitled to their thoughts. I will fight against them tooth and nail should they try to put those regressive ideals into practice though. Think homosexuals are disgusting heathens that have no place in society? Fine. You're an asshole. But if you've beaten and/or murdered homosexuals because you don't like who they choose for a partner, then no. You can stay in whatever hole you crawled out of.

scribblet · September 9, 2015

Truthfully, after spending a few weeks at your Coffeetime forum, I think that you and your cranky old friends have more in common with the Muslims than with me.

-k

Seriously: to my knowledge we have no religious conservatives, but we have many atheists. We have no anti gays or anti semites. We do have a variety of countries represented including the U.K. one of whom is non practicing Jew who fled the U.K. who speaks from experience.

Edited September 9, 2015 by scribblet

scribblet · September 9, 2015

Do you just make things up for fun or do you actually believe this stuff?

I could say the same for you, even the CBC agrees with what I said.

PIK · September 9, 2015

Progressive muslims? A muslim is a muslim and they do what they are told to do. Their religion come 1st before anything else. Why are they coming here, because they have ruined every country they have been part of and that what they will do to the rest of the world. But it will be to late when this country figures that out. But england and germany will be first to realize the mistake that has been made.

cybercoma · September 9, 2015

It's like you people have never met a Muslim person ever in your lives. Your hysteria is hilarious.

scribblet · September 9, 2015

Progressive muslims? A muslim is a muslim and they do what they are told to do. Their religion come 1st before anything else. Why are they coming here, because they have ruined every country they have been part of and that what they will do to the rest of the world. But it will be to late when this country figures that out. But england and germany will be first to realize the mistake that has been made.

Just read some European news, it will confirm this.

waldo · September 9, 2015

Truthfully, after spending a few weeks at your Coffeetime forum, I think that you and your cranky old friends have more in common with the Muslims than with me.

it took all of 15 secs to recognize who member 'foreveramber' is! Ya... that's quite the site! :lol:

waldo · September 9, 2015

It's like you people have never met a Muslim person ever in your lives. Your hysteria is hilarious.

what's freakin' incredible is they actually firmly and resolutely... with passion... believe the nonsense they continue to present! Of course, there's rarely ever any substantive legitimate references provided to substantiate that nonsense, but hey... for some, facts just get in the way around here.

Bonam · September 9, 2015

I guess that's your opinion about what might happen in the future. It's my belief that our society will change them more than they will change our society, if these people are as religious and conservative as you say.

Got any evidence to support your belief?

Argus · September 9, 2015

Because Siks overwhelmingly get along, and Muslims don't. Furthermore, Canadians of Indian descent are the best performing immigrant in the country other than Jews.

Well, no, they're not. Europeans are.