Happy 70th Anniversary of Hiroshima Massacre

[WWWTT]

Your knowledge of History is pathetic.

Japan invaded China and committed many horrific war crimes. The USA didn't attack Japan they just implemented embargoes and cut off their supply of oil. Doesn't that sound diplomatic? Not violent at all actually.

Instead of realizing that their actions were causing concern internationally Japan aligned with Hitler and attacked the US base in Pearl Harbour as well as several other nations and colonies in the South Pacific.

They almost took control of half the world. They awakened the industrial Giant of the US and over the course of 3 years they were slowly defeated by the might of the US but still didn't surrender until after the Nuclear Bombs were dropped.

Your revisionist view of history is alarming. But I wonder why you see the lives lost in Hiroshima and Nagasaki are somehow more important than the lives lost in all the other bombing raids in Japan or the other lives lost in battles where the US had to slowly take away territory Japan took years earlier.

To Boges - You refer to my sense of History as "pathetic", "revisionist" and "alarming" - and you expect a courteous and civil reply?

I do not play that game nor do I play in that sandbox.

Boges, don't insult other posters like this because you just gave BG an out.

Big Guy does fail in recognizing the worth of the lives of the Chinese and other nations.

By the end of the war, the Japanese was aggresively attacking her neighbours for 50 years!

Was dropping the bomb wrong, damn straight it was because the US wanted to establish it's will in the area, and still does! And the US pays the biggest price for it's mistakes.

This anniversary is all over the news in China right now.

Reason being is because China lost the most to Japan, not the US!

WWWTT

[bush_cheney2004]

....Big Guy does fail in recognizing the worth of the lives of the Chinese and other nations.

Ya think ? Why not just leave the Japanese Imperial Army and Navy alone and let them colonize Asia the same way Canada's favorite empire did in North America, Asia, Africa, and the Middle east ?

[Big Guy]

As to popular opinion - there is all kinds;

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/insidestory/2015/08/hiroshima-70-years-nuclear-atomic-bomb-nagasaki-world-war-ii-150806211008905.html

Time changes attitudes.

[Rue]

I agree with WWW or how many W's it is T, Kimmy, Tim G, Derek, Bush on this.

I do agree that he dropping of the bombs in fact gave a way for the Japanese to end the war without losing face as strange as that may be but psychologically the Japanese after the first bomb had no intention of surrendering. Their culture at that time saw death as an honourable and inevitable consequence of war. The 2 bombs themselves formed part of an intimidation game. Coupled with a reference to continued bombings, they served as a psychological weapon.

Their physical effects were horrific. Like Kimmy said, the other consequence would have been far more deaths of civilians.

I read an interesting theory and it was recently on PBS in their documentary on the bomb that some speculate Truman may not have even made the decision to bomb but left it in the hands of his generals. I subscribe to he version he would have had to have the last say and is showed stellar leadership in his decision just as he would later go on to fire McArthur and talk down Air Force Gen. Curtis Lemay and McArthur from trying to use nukes in the Korean war. He was one great President, maybe the greatest because of that.

Kennedy\s stand off with Kruschev over Cuba was quite something as well. Putting men in such positions with the entire world in their hands I can not imagine.

Its also interesting to note and there was a fascinating documentary two nights agon n TV Ontario about the Man Who Saved The World, a Russian Lt. Col. who back in the Reagan pre Gorbachev era was faced one night with computer read outs saying 5 missiles were coming in from the US. Things were tense over a Korean jet shot down in Russian air space. We were at the brink of war with Reagan saying he would find it preferable for the world to end rather than be under communist rule.

Interestingly no glitches were ever found in the computers. This Lt. Colonel ignored all the advice to launch missiles back. Had he the world would be over. He followed his gut and ignored the incoming missile readings until he could make a visual and it was the visual that showed the computers wrong. He in fact saved the world and the documentary showed him meeting Kevin Costner in the US and in his final days making peace with his estranged mother. This man faced with a monumental world saving decision could not deal with his own mother but some how finally in the end reconciled with her. Amazing what we can and can not do. But still to think this man saved the world which he did and most people to this day do not know he exists.

His decision which turned out right exposed millions of Russians to potential nuclear death before retaliating. Had he shot, rockets, the world would be over. Thousands would have been launched back and forth.

The minutemen missiles-those ICBM's were so powerful that just one detonation equalled the total sum of bombs dropped in WW2 other than the 2 atomic ones.

Today's nuke weapons are hundreds if not thousands of times larger than those a bombs. The bunker fat bombs dropped in Afghanistan although technically not nuclear are far more stronger than a bombs or hydrogen bombs.

Nuclear weapons are horrific of course The US was prepared to scrap its weapons to head off any other countries getting them but Stalin had spies who transferred the technology back to Moscow once the first denotation took place making that impossible. The amount of damage to the earth internally as well as in it oceans from nuke tests is horrific in the permanent damage its done.

Interestingly the bikini nuke test off the Bikini Islands is why string bathing suits were called bikinis. They were named after the famous under water nuke test off the coast of the Bikin Islands to test whether they could wipe out the navy at sea. The bikini bathing suit got its name for its alleged explosive reaction.

Bottom line is this-nuke weapons are madness and I think sane people know this but wars are usually started by mad men, terrorists and unpredicted human error not to mention sane men as well.

Anyone who trusts any human with a nuke to me is an idiot, but its a reality and reality is such that I personally believe North Korea,Pakistan and Iran are highly unstable and we should worry about it being in their hands.

India and Pakistan have come within seconds of using them. Israel was prepared to use them during the Yom Kippur war as intelligence picked up a rogue Russian Colonel prepared to launch them against Israel.

The US prevented through intervention a Russian attack on Israel and it is believed the US did it earlier in 1967 and possibly another time.

Today Russia is not a direct nuke threat to Israel but Iran sure as hell is. We again are seconds away from insanity.

If Iran had a stable democratic regime no one would think twice about nuke technology in that country.

For anyone to think Iran is stable and can be trusted with such a weapon or that stupid fat psycho boy in North Korea I have one word-sure.

.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Rue

[Derek 2.0]

The minutemen missiles-those ICBM's were so powerful that just one detonation equalled the total sum of bombs dropped in WW2 other than the 2 atomic ones.

.

The current Minuteman-III do use a far smaller, variable yield, warhead, but quite easily, a Minuteman-III wing of ICBMs equates to all the explosive force ever used by man......

Today's nuke weapons are hundreds if not thousands of times larger than those a bombs. The bunker fat bombs dropped in Afghanistan although technically not nuclear are far more stronger than a bombs or hydrogen bombs.

Actually no, most modern strategic arsenals make use of much smaller warheads (compared to those used into the 70s/80s), but are far more accurate.........this is evident but the older American Titan's that carried a single 9 megaton city killer warhead (Equal to 3 times the explosives used in WW II) or the older Soviet Satan ICBMs that carried a single 20 megaton city killer.......this of course was a reflection of the then poor guidance systems in use, which could have seen Soviet ICBMs (yes plural) targeted at say Toronto missing, instead hitting Hamilton, Barrie or Peterborough, as such, large warheads were then a requirement, versus today, a single ICBM with several MIRVs could place 3+ ~350 kiloton warheads inside the downtown core......

As to modern conventional "bunker busters", not even close to a low yield nuclear weapon, a single nuclear armed depth charge or anti-armor weapon, had far more explosive force.....the most modern US nuclear bunker buster (B61-Mod 11) has a ~50 kiloton warhead (which is extremely small), the mega conventional bunker busters aren't even in the same ballpark........

If Iran had a stable democratic regime no one would think twice about nuke technology in that country.

For anyone to think Iran is stable and can be trusted with such a weapon or that stupid fat psycho boy in North Korea I have one word-sure.

Agreed, even at the height of the Cold War, both sides refrained from brash threats of nuclear holocaust onto each other.....Iran has quite clearly stated they would wipe Israel off the face of the Earth........I've no doubt a nuclear armed Iran will result in other Middle Eastern nations developing (or just buying) their own nuclear arsenals, already Saudi Arabia has thousands of nuclear physicists training in the United Kingdom and the United States.........

[WWWTT]

I do agree that he dropping of the bombs in fact gave a way for the Japanese to end the war without losing face as strange as that may be but psychologically the Japanese after the first bomb had no intention of surrendering. Their culture at that time saw death as an honourable and inevitable consequence of war. The 2 bombs themselves formed part of an intimidation game. Coupled with a reference to continued bombings, they served as a psychological weapon.

So when the US uses terror tactics, it's an "intimidation game" and a "psychological weapon"?

But according to you, Iran is a terrorist state!

This now makes you a FLAMING HYPOCRITE!

Starting to get real tired of your RACIST ANTI ISLAMIC views on this thread buddy!

WWWTT

[bush_cheney2004]

There are interesting Chinese comments on the issue from Quora...many of which go like this:

Answering from someone who is Chinese and not a resident of China, I can say that the prevailing view amongst my peers and friends is that Japan deserved it and IF the Chinese had the bomb, they would had reduced all of Japan to a radioactive wasteland.

http://www.quora.com/How-is-the-atomic-bombing-of-Hiroshima-and-Nagasaki-viewed-in-China

Edited August 8, 2015 by bush_cheney2004

[TimG]

Answering from someone who is Chinese and not a resident of China, I can say that the prevailing view amongst my peers and friends is that Japan deserved it and IF the Chinese had the bomb, they would had reduced all of Japan to a radioactive wasteland. [/i][/indent]

More revisionist history. Mao collaborated with the Japanese Army. Without Japan's help against the Chiang Kai Shek, Mao would have likely never gained control of China.

From the words of Mao himself:

(Japan) doesn't have to say sorry, you had contributed towards China, why? Because had Imperial Japan did not start the war of invasion, how could we communist became mighty powerful? How could we stage the coup d'état? How could we defeat Chiang Kai Shek? How are we going to pay back you guys? No, we do not want your war reparations!"

-Mao Zedong greeting Japanese Prime Minister Takuei in Nanjing, 1972

The modern incarnation of anti-Japanese sentiment in China comes from a Communist government that turned to a nasty form of nationalism to unite Chinese after Tiananmen in 1989.

Revisionist history takes many forms. Always be skeptical.

Edited August 8, 2015 by TimG

[eyeball]

Anyway - Happy 70th Anniversary of this "action" that saved a lot of American lives. It will be interesting what the attitude and perception of the world will be on the 100th Anniversary.

Maybe it'll be that the Allies should have shown greater resolve and pushed onto Moscow and Bejing and that the failure to put tyranny down once and for all time will ultimately prove to be our industrial civilization's undoing.

Of course I'd say that ship probably sailed when we started wheeling, dealing and courting with dictatorships after having spent so much blood and treasure putting them down.

[bush_cheney2004]

Maybe it'll be that the Allies should have shown greater resolve and pushed onto Moscow and Bejing and that the failure to put tyranny down once and for all time will ultimately prove to be our industrial civilization's undoing.

The only problem with that idea is that the "Allies" included the Soviet Union and China.

[bush_cheney2004]

...The modern incarnation of anti-Japanese sentiment in China comes from a Communist government that turned to a nasty form of nationalism to unite Chinese after Tiananmen in 1989.

No...it is far older than that...and is legitimately based on Japan's actions in China even before WW2.

More than 40 years after WW2, the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps were still trying to exterminate very common derogatory terms for Japan and Japanese people directly related to WW2, not just racism. I can't even imagine how Chinese nationals must have felt based on their experience with Japan.

Edited August 8, 2015 by bush_cheney2004

[eyeball]

The only problem with that idea is that the "Allies" included the Soviet Union and China.

It's not like the idea wasn't already long out there....any less than the ethos required for changing one's allies like they were underwear.

[bush_cheney2004]

It's not like the idea wasn't already long out there....any less than the ethos required for changing one's allies like they were underwear.

Lots of ideas out there...that was one of the bad ones. Just ask Gen. Douglas MacArthur.

[eyeball]

Big Guy was asking what people 30 years from now might think.

[TimG]

More than 40 years after WW2, the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps were still trying to exterminate very common derogatory terms for Japan and Japanese people directly related to WW2, not just racism. I can't even imagine how Chinese nationals must have felt based on their experience with Japan.

Well Mao was not much better and they treat him as an icon so there is more going on than simply a body count. Historical narratives are always a mixture of truth and fiction designed to serve the purposes of the people creating narratives. The Taiwanese, Singaporeans, Malaysians and Filipinos all have reason to hate the Japanese occupation. Only the Koreans and Chinese have modern political reasons to dredge up old harms and act as if no time has past. Edited August 8, 2015 by TimG

[jbg]

Right you are, nearly 20000 American and Filipino POWs died from the abuses handed out by the Japanese during the Bataan death march.....likewise, the Japanese slaughter of Chinese civilians in Nanking, in which more people died than both the Atomic strikes on Japan.......

But if you believe Big Guy and others on here the Japanese were misunderstood victims of American imperialism. These people seem to believe that it is wrong to win a war unless of course it is the West that is the loser.

[Big Guy]

Big Guy prefers to speak for himself and is quite capable of explaining himself - thank you.

The Japanese had/have a far better understanding of what was going on in Japan at the time than American historians. The Americans were at war with the Japanese. They massacred about 250,000 civilians and rationalized that they were doing the Japanese a favour by "protecting" even more for an eventual death, (sic) They terrorized them enough so that they capitulated to an unconditional surrender.

The Japanese are/were capable of the same kind of civilian atrocities as was Bin Laden on New York and Israel in Gaza.

My point is that when the USA or the West is doing it we are doing it for their own good. When they do it to us, they are scumbags and terrorists.

You win a war because you show that you are capable of and prepared to kill civilians and terrorize them into submission.

Canada has also used the process very successfully with its intense bombing of Dresden. The intent was to "encourage Hitler to end the war" by terrorizing German citizens by killing about 25,000 in continuing raids. That one did not work as Hitler decided to fight to the end.

It is never wrong to win a war - just ask the winners. It is wrong to rationalize using the same tactics as your enemy but then claim some kind of moral superiority.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Big Guy

[Rue]

I defer to all Derek's comments. I meant bigger as in pow kaboom explosive power not physical size Derek but your clarifications are noted. Lol size is not everything as you note. There's been quite a change since the first bomb of course. I actually worry more Derek about some lunatic making a dirty bomb not the actual ones nations have. Correct me if I am wrong but they are not too hard for a lunatic to make.

It is naïve to think Japan would have surrendered without these bombings. Their sense of both honour and brutality is not something people in the West would know unless they were pow's or had relatives that served and told them or they speak with Chinese, Koreans or Fillipinos who survived their invasions.

To say they were brutal is an understatement. To say they would not surrdender is an understatement. This was a culture who thought their Emperor a God and death as honourable an action as there was.

There are parallels psychology with today's Muslim extremist terrorists in the sense of some of today's Muslim terrorists having no fear of death based on their religious upbringing and their culture.

What they did in Manila, Korea, China people can find out.

Japan could prolong wars using the dense jungle and their tactics were studied by Mao who modified them into his guerilla war approach that morphed when the Viet Cong re-adapted these tactics and now is used by terrorists in the ME.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Rue

[Big Guy]

A few years ago, Japan refused an apology from the President of the USA for the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki;

http://www.hawaiifreepress.com/ArticlesMain/tabid/56/ID/5229/Wikileaks-Japan-refused-Obama-Hiroshima-Apology.aspx

Now Japan has given up apologizing for the atrocities that it committeed during the war;

http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/14/asia/japan-wwii-abe-apology/index.html

You would think that both countries would have learned form the experience.

[WWWTT]

You would think that both countries would have learned form the experience.

Sounds like you're learning something from your research.

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Here's more of the same old from Japan's leader

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/14/shinzo-abe-japan-no-new-apology-second-world-war-anniversary-speech

WWWTT

[ironstone]

On Thursday August 6, it will be 70 years since the USA dropped an atomic bomb on an unsuspecting civilian population in Hiroshima. With a second massacre of Nagasaki a few days later, the final death toll was about one quarter of a million innocent Japanese civilians were dead.

The USA had started the nuclear age and released the radioactive genie.

There have been thousands of books written on the reasons for this massacre trying to explain, rationalize, excuse and minimize this outrage on humanity.

My personal feeling is that this was the most stunning example of the rationalization of "the end justifies the means".

This action and theory has led to "defensive invasions", "anticipatory massacres", "murdering to save lives" and "acceptable collateral damage" - leading to the American invasion of Iraq, the Holocaust, Canadian war in Afghanistan and Israeli "excursions" into Gaza.

On November 11th each year we remind each other "Lest We Forget".

We already forgot!

Happy 70th Anniversary.

The personnel at Pearl Harbor were unsuspecting too.This was a fight the Japanese should not have started.They committed plenty of war crimes during the course of their aggression.

War is ugly and horrific,no argument there.