U.S. and G5 + 1 Cave to Iran in Nuclear "Deal"

[WWWTT]

Deal may have some flaws as critics claim but seems better than not having a deal. The other alternative of an international military strike against Iran to prevent it from developing nuclear capabilities never seemed particularly likely anyway. The deal is the only realistic way forward. Maybe the terms could have been slightly more favorable for the West if the negotiators were shrewder but it's still a step forward, not backward as some claim.

The "west" as you have stated here are, in my own opinion, an receding factor.

Russia, India, Brazil and most importantly China would never tolerate any military action against a sovereign nation!

Simple fact that the US and Israel has done squat after decades of chest thumping is years more than enough proof of their impotence.

We agree that its a movement forward.

But the fact the US didn't get what it really wanted is more proof that the #2 economy is slipping further down.

WWWTT

[bush_cheney2004]

Give a ratt's ass about the CBC strawman you're trying to throw out there!

That's what I figured...no answer for the blatant lies about Netanyahu or Israel. Inconsistent as always.

[Rue]

HJ stop claiming you speak for Jews or claim to speak for the majority of Jews outside Israel. Stop raising their religion. Their religion has nothing to do with this thread. The fact a Jew may or may not agree with Israeli foreign policies is not relevant. You raise the religious identity of Jews as if it is. That is a blatant tactic of anti-Semitism-using the perceived religion or identity of a Jew in a reference as if its relevant to their opinion on Israel. It is not. You raise it to suggest the anti-Semitic card that there are good Jews and bad Jews. You are the first on this board claiming the religion of Muslims is not relevant to discussing Muslim terrorists yet you throw the Jew reference out. Why? Do you point out the religion of anyone else? Well.

Would you cease and desist with this tactic. Its anti-Semitic, its blatant, it exposes you for what your agenda is, insulting and stereotyping Jews. Enough. Discuss the issues not the perceived ethnicity or religion of people.

More to the point you don't speak for any Jew. Not one.

[Rue]

Bush has not done that and neither have I. Now read back HJ's continued responses and let me ask you, is it relevant you are Asian? Is it relevant if you are "Chinese"?

Of course not.. I take your opinions for what they are-period. The fact you may be Chinese or Asian and support China means diddle swat to me as my being Jewish is to you.. We may disagree but you do not make stereotypes about Jews or me. This is not about you. Never was.

Bush has not raised the argument you stated. He hasn't and doesn't. He has criticized Netanyahu. He could give a crap whether he's a Jew or not.

That you need to get. Some posters on this board like him don't give a crap about who we are-its the positions they debate. I have had my clashes with him.

Its about positions. Seriously, you need to look at how the word Jew is tossed about in such threads. It aint coming from Bush. In fact he ridicules the same exercise when the term "American" is thrown out the way "Jew" is.

That is it. Getting back to your other comments, I personally think China's decision to form a military alliance with Israel at the same time as being Iran's no.1 ally speaks loudly-as loudly as any nation. That to me is a clear signal they are playing mediator between the two. You can't get more blatant then that but no China won't invade anyone. Maybe Vietnam or islands off Japan, etc., but in reality it does not need to invade. It uses economic market

predatory practices to control countries making conventional military occupation obsolete.

Mao Tse Tung's guerilla war model readapted by the Viet Cong then re-adapted again by many Arab extremist terror cells across he ME, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Northern and mid Africa, have made conventional war obsolete. Countries can't occupy other countries.

Contrary to popular belief not even Israel occupies the West Bank, it contains it. It sets borders around the people. It limits its interactions on the ground to a containment motion.

Using soldiers as patrol policemen will not work. They are sitting ducks. They are loud and can be heard coming.

The Iran deal is a p.r. exercise by Obama trying to build his legacy on the way out to help Clinton in her run. Its a joke. HJ can come on this board and make ludicrous references to the majority of Jews outside Israel approving of the deal but that is a blatant fabrication. Jews, like anyone else see the deal in many ways. He speaks for none of them and quite frankly the people who have Iran threatening to destroy them, Israelis, Jordanians, Saudis, Egyptians, Iraqis, Kurds, Kuwaitis, the people of Libya, Tunisia, Bahrain, Yemen, UAE, those people in direct line of fire from Iran supported terrorists-their opinion is what counts.

If they feel endangered and most are, they don't give a rat's ass what HJ pro Iranian script writers say thousands of miles from the war line.

They know the game and what it will take to survive extremism and terrorism.

I make no bones about it. I want a strong, principled, American leading the world, not some closeted Muslim Brotherhood phony who abandon the US from the world stage and spent 8 years apologizing for the US being the world's leader.

Excuse me but I do not want Putin or China leading the world. Piss all you want on the US I will take it as the world leader over those 2 or Iran any day.

[marcus]

Contrary to popular belief not even Israel occupies the West Bank, it contains it. It sets borders around the people. It limits its interactions on the ground to a containment motion.

Contrary to your opinion, as according to international law and ICJ opinion and Canadian stance on the matter, Israel is occupying the West Bank, East Jerusalem and even Gaza.

Here is Likud’s position on settlements:

“The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza (all Occupied Palestine) are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel.”

This is one of the reasons why Zionism is wrong. Its values cannot co-exist with values of democracy and human rights.

Edited July 24, 2015 by marcus

[marcus]

Here is an exchange between Kerry and Presidential hopeful, Rubio:

At the end of the education session, Kerry should have grabbed the mic and dropped it.

[bush_cheney2004]

This is one of the reasons why Zionism is wrong. Its values cannot co-exist with values of democracy and human rights.

Sure they can...just as they do in Canada and the United States. Why single out Israel ?

[Rue]

Marcus your comments have zero credibility as you support Muslim sharia law states and applied the same standard nor do you apply it to India, Britain or the Vatican.

Your comments are also past absurd considering Muslims are elected in the Knesset, are Judges, and Muslim Israelis have the highest standard of living in the ME and all the democratic rights no Jew or Christian or non Muslim has in the Sharia law nations you support.

Edited July 26, 2015 by Rue

[WWWTT]

and Muslim Israelis have the highest standard of living in the ME

Higher than Qatar???

No wonder you don't back up your claims with links, you simply can't.

WWWTT

[marcus]

Marcus your comments have zero credibility as you support Muslim sharia law states

LOL. What?

[Rue]

Higher than Qatar???

No wonder you don't back up your claims with links, you simply can't.

WWWTT

Yes. Figure out why. Zip over your head.

Do you think for a second W that the average person in Qatar sees the money or lives the lifestyle of the elite oil rich? Really ia it that hard for you to graspit has only 280,000 citizens but 1.5 million migrant workers treated like dirt?

Israel ranks 19th among 187 world nations on the UN's Human Development Index. Look at its size compared to other nations.

Israel ranks fourth compared to 30 Arab countries in its standard of living and gross domestic product per capita, and is preceded pnly by Qatar, Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates, but you need to go further and examine the actual day to day distribution of the wealth, the access to schools, hospitals, day to day rights.

Clearly you think you can isolate standard of living to one statistic and ignore all the other factors.

Then you want a link? Right.

Qatar, has a population has the highest GDP in the world: $177,591 per capita because of its slave labour. Second and third in the world are Lichtenstein (35,000 residents and a GDP per capita of $142,695) and Luxemburg (500,000 residents and a GDP per capita of $81,641).

In the Arab world, Kuwait ranks second (eighth in the world) with a GDP of $52,588, and UAE third (10th in the world) with $47,935 per capita.

Israel ranks fourth in the Middle East with a population of some eight millions people and a $29,359 GDP per capita.

The Jewish state ranks 44th in the world in its residents' GDP.

Oman ranks fifth in the Arab world and 52nd in the world (three million residents and a $25,047 GDP per capita), just before Bahrain which is 53rd in the world with a GDP per capita of $24,459.

Saudi Arabia – the first large Muslim country on the list – is sixth (54th in the world) with a GDP per capita of $23,803 for its 26 million residents.

Malaysia ranks seventh with 29 million residents and a GDP per capita of $14,425, followed by Lebanon (80th in the world) with a $14,330 GDP per capita.

The top 10 countries list concludes with Libya (a population of seven million people and a $13,727 GDP per capita) and Turkey (71 million people and a $12,300 GDP). They are followed by Iran in the 11th place with 78 million people and a GDP of 10,511 per capita.

In the Palestinian Authority territories, which have a population of four million people, the GDP totals $3,027 – about one-tenth of Israel's GDP.

You want links? Lol. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4175044,00.html

Now you tell me how the average person in Qatar lives compared to Israel. Go on finish what you started. You think they live better than Muslims in Israel prove it. Hold your self to the same standard you hold of me. Just once provide a link.

That tactic of demanding links but providing none of your own means what exactly?

Go on provide links to how wonderful people have it in Qatar. Go on. Finish what you started. Where are your links?

Go on explain how wonderful it treats its workers:

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2014/country-chapters/qatar

Here you want a link here is what the above says in summary:

"According to official 2013 statistics, Qatar has a population of about 2million, of whom only 10 percent are Qatari nationals. The number of economically active foreign nationals increased by 122,000, almost 10 percent, in the 12 months from April 2012, and is expected to rise further in response to the demands of Qatar’s burgeoning construction sector.

Qatar’s Law 14 of 2004 regulating labor in the private sector limits workers’ hours requires that they receive paid annual leave, sets requirements on health and safety, and requires on-time payment of wages each month. However, the authorities fail to enforce this and other laws intended to protect workers’ rights.

Workers typically pay exorbitant recruitment fees and employers regularly take control of their passports when they arrive in Qatar. The kafala (sponsorship) system ties a migrant worker’s legal residence to his or her employer, or sponsor. Migrant workers commonly complain that employers fail to pay their wages on time if at all, but are barred from changing jobs without their sponsoring employer’s consent other than in exceptional cases and with express permission of the Interior Ministry. Adding to their vulnerability, they must obtain an exit visa from their sponsor in order to leave Qatar. Migrant workers are prohibited from unionizing or engaging in strikes, although they make up 99 percent of the private sector workforce.

Many migrant workers live in cramped, unsanitary conditions, especially those working without documentation.

Workers can become undocumented when employers report them as having absconded, or when they fail to pay to renew workers’ annual ID cards. A lack of proper documentation leaves workers at risk of arrest and detention or deportation. It also leaves them at risk of further labor exploitation. Authorities rarely, if ever, bring criminal prosecutions against employers for violating Qatar’s labor or anti-trafficking laws."

Please explain how wonderful the standard of living is for these Muslims. Go on. Links please.

Here you want a link how about this one:

"4,000 Migrant Workers Will Die So Qatar Can Host A World Cup"

http://thinkprogress.org/sports/2014/03/24/3418102/4000-migrant-workers-will-die-so-qatar-can-host-a-world-cup/

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1854355-qatar-accused-of-human-rights-violations-in-preparation-for-2022-world-cup

You want links do you.....

http://gizmodo.com/the-grim-secret-behind-qatars-lavish-new-stadiums-hum-1466811510

Links. Links please.

While you are at it you want links as to what Qatar does with its money oh guess......

Oh wait here's a quote from this link; http://www.thecommentator.com/article/5220/qatar_as_the_world_s_biggest_financer_of_terror

Qatar can be called the world’s largest funder of terror, giving money to the various affiliates of the Muslim Brotherhood. In a strong speech delivered on March 4, 2014 on the subject of the dynamics of terrorist financing, David Cohen, U.S. Undersecretary for Terrorism and Financial Intelligence, stated that Qatar , a longtime U.S. ally, has for many years financed Hamas.

Qatar’s most dramatic gesture was that of the former ruler, Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa al-Thani, the first head of state to visit Gaza since Hamas took power, who pledged in October 2012 to give Hamas $400 million, supposedly for a reconstruction project that allowed it to import cement via Egypt. That cement went to the building of the tunnels.

Qatar had wanted to transfer millions to the Arab Bank to pay 44,000 Hamas civil servants, but the transfer was never processed because of U.S. pressure.

We done W?

Edited July 27, 2015 by Rue

[Rue]

LOL. What?

You support the right of Muslims to have Sharia law states that discriminate against non Muslims. You never once question Britain's right to call itself asn Anglican state or the Vatican to call itself a Catholic state. Lol. What? Yah that's one way to avoid the lack of credibility in your statements, pretend you don't understabnd them. Lol. What?

[marcus]

You support the right of Muslims to have Sharia law states that discriminate against non Muslims.

We were not talking about Sharia Law in Muslim countries and I have never gave any support to Muslims to have Sharia Law that discriminates against non-Muslims.

After responding to your misinformation about the Occupation in the West Bank, you threw a totally irrelevant comment.

Just a reminder - You said:

Contrary to popular belief not even Israel occupies the West Bank, it contains it. It sets borders around the people. It limits its interactions on the ground to a containment motion.

And I responded with:

Contrary to your opinion, as according to international law and ICJ opinion and Canadian stance on the matter, Israel is occupying the West Bank, East Jerusalem and even Gaza.

Here is Likud’s position on settlements:

“The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza (all Occupied Palestine) are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel.”

[Big Guy]

Fareed Zakaria is a columnist with mayor American media and has his own show on CNN. I have found his evaluations of what is happening in Europe and the Middle East the most impartial and informative available. His latest editorial explains the repercussions of the Iran deal not being ratified by the USA;

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-real-gamblers-on-iran/2015/07/23/f21d2ce0-316b-11e5-8f36-18d1d501920d_story.html

I agree with his analysis. If the American congress manages to scuttle this deal then the USA is out on its own against Iran.

Edited July 27, 2015 by Big Guy

[Rue]

Marcus your agenda to hijack this thread to engage in your usual recycled scripts against Zionism and stereotyping what Zionism is have nothing to do with the thread. Your latest attempt to try engage me ends right now.

[WWWTT]

I agree with his analysis. If the American congress manages to scuttle this deal then the USA is out on its own against Iran.

Interesting read.

I'm under the impression that if the US congress rejects, the others will go ahead and only the US will lose out.

WWWTT

[Hudson Jones]

Marcus your agenda to hijack this thread to engage in your usual recycled scripts against Zionism and stereotyping what Zionism is have nothing to do with the thread. Your latest attempt to try engage me ends right now.

How can you sit there and berate marcus for 'hijacking' the thread when he is responding directly to your misinformation? Do you expect to be treated differently than others? What makes you so special?

---

Back to the topic of this thread:

We all know that the world fully supports the Iran deal.

That leaves the U.S.

Majority of U.S. citizens support the Iran deal. Majority of U.S. Jews support the Iran deal as well.

All that is left, is to see whether the Israeli lobby groups will be able to convince enough Democrat lawmakers to vote against the deal so that they can get a 2/3 majority to override the Presidents veto. Something that is highly unlikely.

[bush_cheney2004]

The world....including Israel ? Oh...maybe somebody thinks Israel is not part of the world ?

The U.S. was part of the negotiating nations...the entire world was not.

Edited July 27, 2015 by bush_cheney2004

[Hudson Jones]

The world....including Israel ? Oh...maybe somebody thinks Israel is not part of the world ?

The U.S. was part of the negotiating nations...the entire world was not.

The world, not including Israel. Because the Israeli government prefers chaos and war. They prefer to bully other countries. That's the only way they can continue the status quo.

I wonder if this guy supports the Obama deal with Iran.

[WWWTT]

The world....including Israel ? Oh...maybe somebody thinks Israel is not part of the world ?

The U.S. was part of the negotiating nations...the entire world was not.

Ya actually BRICS was central in all of this and they represent!

In fact they represent over 40% of the worlds population!

Not to mention the many more lesser countries that do not recognize sanctions, Hudson Jones comments are pretty close and are acceptable.

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

How can you sit there and berate marcus for 'hijacking' the thread when he is responding directly to your misinformation? Do you expect to be treated differently than others? What makes you so special?

Good questions to ask in a debate thread/forum!

After all, do the moderators want to improve this site? Or watch it deteriorate?

This issue is very historical and there are many facets that we haven't even touched upon yet!

I personally am looking forward to checking this thread for updates.

WWWTT

[bush_cheney2004]

Ya actually BRICS was central in all of this and they represent!

In fact they represent over 40% of the worlds population!

Thank you for proving my point...not the "world" at all....just wishful thinking.

[GostHacked]

Interesting read.

I'm under the impression that if the US congress rejects, the others will go ahead and only the US will lose out.

WWWTT

Sanctions will hurt the government second. The general populous feels the pain first and then a third time when everything collapses.

[WWWTT]

Thank you for proving my point...not the "world" at all....just wishful thinking.

Not the "entire" world. I think that's what you mean?

But an well over 50% of it makes using the term world acceptable.

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Sanctions will hurt the government second. The general populous feels the pain first and then a third time when everything collapses.

Ya but on which side?

I've said it before and said it again, sanctions are like drinking poison and expecting your enemy to die!

WWWTT