Greece? Add about 4% to Harper's Numbers

[Argus]

Has anyone in Canada, the US, or the UK ever referred to Greek as a model of social democracy? Is it any more socialist than Germany, which is one of its main creditors? This whole argument seems bizarre to me.

It should reinforce to Canadians in general the need for responsible government, and make them more suspicious about parties which promise them the world (ie, the NDP). No one has so far even costed out all the promises the NDP have made but they would certainly put us back into a deep financial hole unless all the tax increases made up for the billions and billions in new spending.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Argus

[Evening Star]

Well, unlike the other parties, the NDP is willing to propose tax increases, some of which you have even commented on: a corporate tax raise, higher capital gains taxes, scrapping income-splitting, a revenue-generating cap-and-trade system. Greek governments were barely even collecting taxes afaict.

I actually think the NDP would probably need to go further but, frankly, the other parties' plans do not seem more responsible financially. I do not think that the Conservatives' tax cuts and tax breaks are sustainable if we want to preserve things like our health care system, honestly. (In darker moments, my suspicion is that this might be the point.)

Edit: I'm completely in favour of people being more critical of party platforms and wanting to see detailed costing/financial analysis, though. I'd like to see this too.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Evening Star

[Derek 2.0]

No one has so far even costed out all the promises the NDP have made

Don't be so sure

No one has yet to make such costing public and open to scrutiny, and in turn, derision and fear.

[WWWTT]

This whole argument seems bizarre to me.

Sounds desperate to me.

Apparently Harper made some kind of mention or parallel in a recent speech.

I'd like to see/hear Harper make some kind of mention of Greece in a debate, if he ever grows a couple to go to one.

WWWTT

[Derek 2.0]

(In darker moments, my suspicion is that this might be the point.)

It is without a doubt, with such motivations based both on ideology and politics...........Simply put, when Government revenue is cut to the bone, the left-wing parties are left with little to no wiggle room in promising more social largess, sans tax increases (as made evident by the promises of both the Liberals and NDP to do exactly that).

[jbg]

Sorry, but wasn't the government which took out those loans elected by the Greek voters? Didn't the current pensioners vote for those governments and benefit from their largesse?

I doubt that the average Greek understood the high-level machinations of the well-connected. Why do you think most aid to governments as well as loan proceeds goes down a rat-hole?

Edited July 6, 2015 by jbg

[Argus]

I doubt that the average Greek understood the high-level machinations of the well-connected. Why do you think most aid to governments as well as loan proceeds goes down a rat-hole?

Because Greece is a thoroughly corrupt society where everyone is on the take?

[Shady]

Greek's literally don't want to pay any taxes, and want huge benefits, like retiring at 55 with a full pension paid for by the government.

[cybercoma]

Why would they want to pay taxes when people like you are calling for austerity?

Hey! Let's raise taxes, but you'll get nothing in return. It's all going to go into the pockets of the international banking elite for the next 4 generations.

I don't blame them one bit for shirking their taxes.

[Argus]

Greek's literally don't want to pay any taxes, and want huge benefits, like retiring at 55 with a full pension paid for by the government.

Well, who doesn't? I think the problem of the southern European countries is they want these great benefits, similar to those they see in northern Europe, but their economies can't support them. Furthermore, their politicians aren't as responsible as those in northern Europe, nor are their voters. They have constant coalition governments jockeying and elbowing for power in the brief time periods between elections, each eager to promise the world to voters. There have been 50 Greek Prime Ministers since the end of WW2 (70 years). For comparison purposes, Canada and the US have had 12 PMs and presidents.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Argus

[Bryan]

Why would they want to pay taxes when people like you are calling for austerity?

Hey! Let's raise taxes, but you'll get nothing in return. It's all going to go into the pockets of the international banking elite for the next 4 generations.

I don't blame them one bit for shirking their taxes.

They have already been receiving their benefits in advance, now it's time to pay for them.

[cybercoma]

They have already been receiving their benefits in advance, now it's time to pay for them.

The young workers in Greece received them, did they? They didn't receive a damn thing and now they're expected to foot the bill and get nothing in return. More importantly, it's patently absurd to offer Greece loans then tie their hands when it comes to raising revenues and improving their economy by demanding austerity measures. Austerity during recessions/depressions doesn't work. It never has and never will. Have we learned nothing from the The Great Depression? Are we just going to pretend like we don't have that example in our history books? It's like a bank giving someone a loan and telling them they can't invest the money in anything that will help them make enough money to pay it back. It's literally insane.

[Bryan]

They have constant coalition governments jockeying and elbowing for power in the brief time periods between elections, each eager to promise the world to voters. There have been 50 Greek Prime Ministers since the end of WW2 (70 years). For comparison purposes, Canada and the US have had 12 PMs and presidents.

But, but, but... Proportional Representation is supposed to be a good thing!

I can imagine the campaign now. Every time Mulcair speaks about one of this policies (economic or political), both Harper and Trudeau can respond with "yeah, just like Greece!".

[cybercoma]

But, but, but... Proportional Representation is supposed to be a good thing!

I can imagine the campaign now. Every time Mulcair speaks about one of this policies (economic or political), both Harper and Trudeau can respond with "yeah, just like Greece!".

Except NDP governments balance their books and Canada has nearly 100% income tax compliance, both unlike Greece. So, sure, if Trudeau and Harper are morons, they'll make that comparison.

[Bryan]

The young workers in Greece received them, did they? They didn't receive a damn thing and now they're expected to foot the bill and get nothing in return.

They should take that up with their elders who robbed their future dry. This situation is exactly why anyone who is even remotely intelligent is opposed to socialist policies -- they do not work. It's a giant Ponzi scheme that eventually someone gets left holding the bag.

This isn't the great depression, this is one country that ran themselves into the ground. It's no one else's job to bail them out. If they don't enact austerity measures now, the trouble is going to get a lot worse before it gets better. They have to stop spending more than they can take in.

[Bryan]

Except NDP governments balance their books

Sure they do. When they change the laws to allow them to just not report the losses.

[Evening Star]

I can imagine the campaign now. Every time Mulcair speaks about one of this policies (economic or political), both Harper and Trudeau can respond with "yeah, just like Greece!".

I hope they decide to go with this strategy. I'm sure it will be a winner!

[cybercoma]

Sure they do. When they change the laws to allow them to just not report the losses.

It's ok for the government to change the laws to balance the books. I think the Conservatives have done it every single year since they've been in power since 2006. And they still couldn't get out of the red.

Edited July 6, 2015 by cybercoma

[cybercoma]

This isn't the great depression, this is one country that ran themselves into the ground. It's no one else's job to bail them out. If they don't enact austerity measures now, the trouble is going to get a lot worse before it gets better. They have to stop spending more than they can take in.

Very nice slur of buzz words and phrases. Too bad we have tons of examples of how austerity does not work. You can sit here and pretend it's due to overspending on social programs, when the fact of the matter is their spending to GDP is exactly on par with the European average. The problem is largely due to tax compliance. Most nations are near 100%, Germany actually hit 100% at one point. Greece is just above 50%. So the problem isn't their programs. It's a public that refuses to pay taxes when it all goes into the pockets of banks instead of towards their own society and programs.

[Shady]

The young workers in Greece received them, did they? They didn't receive a damn thing and now they're expected to foot the bill and get nothing in return. More importantly, it's patently absurd to offer Greece loans then tie their hands when it comes to raising revenues and improving their economy by demanding austerity measures. Austerity during recessions/depressions doesn't work. It never has and never will. Have we learned nothing from the The Great Depression? Are we just going to pretend like we don't have that example in our history books? It's like a bank giving someone a loan and telling them they can't invest the money in anything that will help them make enough money to pay it back. It's literally insane.

They could start by not raising revenue, but just collecting the current requirements. I saw a chart today that showed outstanding taxes in Germany vs Greece in 2011. Germany was 2.3%, Greece was 89%. Um, that's kind of a problem.

Edit, sorry Greece was 83% not 89%

Edited July 6, 2015 by Shady

[bush_cheney2004]

The leftist government only compounded the problem by campaigning to reduce or eliminate taxes and austerity measures, increasing tax scofflaws.

In a country that already had large noncompliance with taxes, who would pay taxes that soon were to be eliminated ?

[cybercoma]

They could start by not raising revenue, but just collecting the current requirements. I saw a chart today that showed outstanding taxes in Germany vs Greece in 2011. Germany was 2.3%, Greece was 89%. Um, that's kind of a problem.

Edit, sorry Greece was 83% not 89%

Absolutely it's a problem. I agree. They need stronger enforcement for tax compliance.

[WWWTT]

It should reinforce to Canadians in general the need for responsible government, and make them more suspicious about parties which promise them the world (ie, the NDP). No one has so far even costed out all the promises the NDP have made but they would certainly put us back into a deep financial hole unless all the tax increases made up for the billions and billions in new spending.

LOL!

The Harper government and conservatives in general have never added up the numbers when promising corporations tax cuts!

I'm sure the corporations verbally promised all kinds of jobs!

The conservatives added up all those verbal promises and the numbers looked great.

Then told the voters, hey, let's give the corporations all kind of tax breaks because they VERBALLY PROMISED to increase jobs!

WWWTT

[Keepitsimple]

Collecting taxes might be easier said that done......

It would appear that personal taxes in Greece are outrageously high - at least by our standards......so it's not surprising that people avoid paying them. That said, there's the additional factor of productivity and willingness to work hard. For someone making 42,000 Euros and above, the effective personal tax rate is 58%.......but also, anything you buy is subject to a VAT (Sales Tax) that could be as high as 23%. Not much left over. Here's what they pay:

The 2014 tax rates are as follows:

Income/Taxation
€0 – €25,000 22%
€25,001 – €42,000 32%
> €42,001 42%

Social security tax

An employer is obligated to deduct tax at source from an employee and to make additional contributions to social security as in many other EU member states. The employer's contribution amounts to 28.06% of the salary. The employee's contribution is 16%.

VAT

The VAT tax in Greece is 6.5% to 23%. For all goods not belonging to any special category, the VAT is 23%. For Category 1 goods the VAT is 13%, and for Category 2 goods it is 6.5%. Some items are exempt from VAT, such as medical services and education.On some islands there is a VAT reduction for Category 1 goods to 16%.

Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Greece

Edited July 6, 2015 by Keepitsimple

[Evening Star]

But, but, but... Proportional Representation is supposed to be a good thing!

You know that Germany uses PR too, right? I'm not even a big supporter of PR but this is a silly argument against it.