Smallc Posted June 30, 2015 Report Posted June 30, 2015 You have a citation for that or are you just making things up? Quote
dre Posted June 30, 2015 Report Posted June 30, 2015 That's exactly what they are. The F-22A is past most of its issues. Yes it is... Because they cancelled the program due to massive cost overruns. It took nearly 20 years and the air force ended up spending about 70 billion dollars on 188 plans. Alarmed by soaring costs, the Defense Department shut down production last year after spending $67.3 billion on just 188 planes — leaving the Air Force to rely mainly on its fleet of 30-year-old conventional fighters. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Bob Macadoo Posted June 30, 2015 Report Posted June 30, 2015 Wouldn't we be better spent investing in more drone tech.......do we think we'll be putting "dogfighters" in harm's way in the future? The age of Top Gun is over non? Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted June 30, 2015 Report Posted June 30, 2015 UBC professor is saying that Canada should cancel the F-35, close down the Victoria class sub-program and buy 40 Super Hornets, which could have a savings of 10 billion over the next 12 years. No, the four Victoria class subs are currently our most capable surveillance and sea denial assets our Navy has.....A purchase of 40 Super Hornets (or 40 F-35s) wouldn't allow us the ability to maintain our NORAD commitments, let alone contributing to NATO. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted July 1, 2015 Report Posted July 1, 2015 Doesn't matter what Canada wants to do...too little...too late. if the U.S. Navy does not order more F-18 Super Hornets soon, the supply chain for long lead items will dry up and the production line will shut down by 2017. Exactly, with the final Growler completed in early 2017....... Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted July 1, 2015 Report Posted July 1, 2015 All new aircraft have an endless series of problems. The F18 did too. Now it's at the end of its production run, including the "super' version and while it might be a good aircraft now it won't e in twenty five years. And the Super Hornet will no longer be supported once the USN (and RAAF) starts retiring it from service in the early 2030s (late 2030s for the Growler).......aside from the production line closing soon, what is proposed, is that Canada purchase an aircraft that wouldn't fully enter service until the early ~2020s, one decade prior to its retirement by its current users....... Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted July 1, 2015 Report Posted July 1, 2015 Did I not read a story about the price is coming down for the F-35? Yes Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted July 1, 2015 Report Posted July 1, 2015 The old F 18 is old tech. The block 3 Superhornet not so much. Even if the F 35 could achieve its advertised goals, it is designed for missions we arent likely to do, and furthermore as more problems show up, Lockmart just changes the original parameters to make things appear better. Ad if we decide we need something beyond the Hornet then there are better options from various European suppliers. The root Hornet design is from the early 1970s, with the Super Hornet taking birth in the later 1980s........you would have Canada purchase a near 30 year old design in 2015, and operate it out to the 2050s......making the Super Hornet a design over 60 years old.........that is akin to an air force operating the F-86 Sabre today Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted July 1, 2015 Report Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) Wouldn't we be better spent investing in more drone tech.......do we think we'll be putting "dogfighters" in harm's way in the future? The age of Top Gun is over non? No, that is still several generations away at best......first the use of drones requires bandwidth, which is limited worldwide (the Americans are constrained to operating less UAV/UCAVs at a time then you and I have fingers and toes), furthermore the reach of said bandwidth and communications is limited by the curvature of the Earth, namely in both polar regions (kind of important for us with NORAD). Second, UAV/UCAVs has severe limitations with situational awareness, which on several occasions resulted in near misses with manned aircraft in Iraq and Afghanistan. As a result, the use of UAV/UCAVs is limited to restricted airspace....having a UCAV unable to intercept a wayward airliner over Southern Ontario is a non-starter. With that said, technology developed for the F-35 (its Northrop Grumman developed Distributed Aperture System) will, in the future, be incorporated into future UAVs. Third, a UCAV that will fulfill the same requirements as a modern manned aircraft, will cost an equal or greater amount.......UCAVs are not cheap, and though they will supplement manned flight, they won't replace it for generations (this is no more evident then the concepts of the 6th generation fighters and next generation bomber, both of which will still have ejection seats) With all that, UAV/UCAVs (and underwater and on land) do have a place in current and near term modern armed forces, including the Canadian Forces, as a supplement to current capabilities........ Edited July 1, 2015 by Derek 2.0 Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted July 1, 2015 Report Posted July 1, 2015 The root Hornet design is from the early 1970s, with the Super Hornet taking birth in the later 1980s........you would have Canada purchase a near 30 year old design in 2015, and operate it out to the 2050s......making the Super Hornet a design over 60 years old.........that is akin to an air force operating the F-86 Sabre today Just like Australia is doing I would consider the Super Hornet as a interim step since the F 35 keeps failing. Then I would look at much more successful (not to mention cheaper) European options. Lets take care of the pilots and the taxpayers both. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted July 1, 2015 Report Posted July 1, 2015 Just like Australia is doing I would consider the Super Hornet as a interim step since the F 35 keeps failing. Then I would look at much more successful (not to mention cheaper) European options. Lets take care of the pilots and the taxpayers both. As I said to you countless times, the RAAF selected the Super Hornet to replace their 1970s era F-111s, and are replacing their Hornets (same vintage as ours) with the F-35............your "European Options" (Eurofighter, Rafale, Gripen) are as old as, if not older, than the Super Hornet, likewise have been plagued with a whole host of problems and are still, decades late, not fully mature........so you would purchase the Super Hornet interim, then replace them with "European options" that are just as old............ Your choices are: 1) F-35 2) Aircraft that will be obsolete in the later 2020s, into the 2030s, hence requiring a replacement within the next 15-20 years, or accept that the RCAF is obsolete. 3) Keep flying our current Hornets, that are approaching 35-40 years old, and will start falling from the skies 4) No longer maintain a fighter capability within the RCAF, and allow the Americans to police our airspace as they see fit (with their own F-35s) 5) A mixture of 2 and 3, and purchase the 6th generation fighter under development that will replace the Super Hornet, F-15E and F-22 in the 2030s.... Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted July 1, 2015 Report Posted July 1, 2015 As I said to you countless times, the RAAF selected the Super Hornet to replace their 1970s era F-111s, and are replacing their Hornets (same vintage as ours) with the F-35............your "European Options" (Eurofighter, Rafale, Gripen) are as old as, if not older, than the Super Hornet, likewise have been plagued with a whole host of problems and are still, decades late, not fully mature........so you would purchase the Super Hornet interim, then replace them with "European options" that are just as old............ Your choices are: 1) F-35 2) Aircraft that will be obsolete in the later 2020s, into the 2030s, hence requiring a replacement within the next 15-20 years, or accept that the RCAF is obsolete. 3) Keep flying our current Hornets, that are approaching 35-40 years old, and will start falling from the skies 4) No longer maintain a fighter capability within the RCAF, and allow the Americans to police our airspace as they see fit (with their own F-35s) 5) A mixture of 2 and 3, and purchase the 6th generation fighter under development that will replace the Super Hornet, F-15E and F-22 in the 2030s.... No the RAAF bought a series of Super Hornets to fill the gap the F 35 situation (production failure etc) has created. We should do the sae and then take a serious look at alternatives from Europe. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted July 1, 2015 Report Posted July 1, 2015 No the RAAF bought a series of Super Hornets to fill the gap the F 35 situation (production failure etc) has created. We should do the sae and then take a serious look at alternatives from Europe. No, they didn't.......they, as I've stated (and cited) countless times to you, the RAAF replaced their F-111 fleet with the Super Hornet/Growler because they could no longer afford to maintain a bastard fleet of aircraft after the USAF retired the type, and the General Dynamics aircraft division (sold to Lockheed) no longer supported the aircraft........they will replace their Super Hornets and Growlers in the later 2020s with additional F-35s, be they F-35As (as is replacing their current Hornet fleet) or F-35Bs to operate in conjunction with the Canberra class LHDs The RAAF example should be heeded, as operating obsolete aircraft, that no longer have a support base, are unaffordable......as would happen to Canada if we selected the Super Hornet (Or your just as old "European options) and operated them into the 2050s........this is why Canada no longer operates the Sabre or Canuck. Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted July 1, 2015 Report Posted July 1, 2015 No, they didn't.......they, as I've stated (and cited) countless times to you, the RAAF replaced their F-111 fleet with the Super Hornet/Growler because they could no longer afford to maintain a bastard fleet of aircraft after the USAF retired the type, and the General Dynamics aircraft division (sold to Lockheed) no longer supported the aircraft........they will replace their Super Hornets and Growlers in the later 2020s with additional F-35s, be they F-35As (as is replacing their current Hornet fleet) or F-35Bs to operate in conjunction with the Canberra class LHDs The RAAF example should be heeded, as operating obsolete aircraft, that no longer have a support base, are unaffordable......as would happen to Canada if we selected the Super Hornet (Or your just as old "European options) and operated them into the 2050s........this is why Canada no longer operates the Sabre or Canuck. Well yes they did. But aside from that, even if the bomb truck could actually meet its proposed capabilities, we would be paying a shitload of money for stuff we dont need. Are we planning to attack anybody with stealth (assuming it could be made to actually work) any time soon, and who would that be I wonder.( I know you are rapt with the F 35) but hopefully cooler heads will prevail so we don't waste so much money. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted July 1, 2015 Report Posted July 1, 2015 Well yes they did. But aside from that, even if the bomb truck could actually meet its proposed capabilities, we would be paying a shitload of money for stuff we dont need. Are we planning to attack anybody with stealth (assuming it could be made to actually work) any time soon, and who would that be I wonder.( I know you are rapt with the F 35) but hopefully cooler heads will prevail so we don't waste so much money. The first operational F-35 squadron (USMC) has already stood up, and in the next couple of weeks, will go on its first regular deployment.........then the first F-35A Squadron stands-up with the USAF next year........your talking points have gone stale and no longer sync with real life. Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted July 1, 2015 Report Posted July 1, 2015 The first operational F-35 squadron (USMC) has already stood up, and in the next couple of weeks, will go on its first regular deployment.........then the first F-35A Squadron stands-up with the USAF next year........your talking points have gone stale and no longer sync with real life. Not stale at all unless you think April is stale. http://www.businessinsider.com/f-35-engine-problems-2015-4 Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 1, 2015 Report Posted July 1, 2015 ......your talking points have gone stale and no longer sync with real life. Yep...pointing to other nations...large and small...who have already made strike fighter procurement decisions only highlights the fact that Canada can't/won't. The political monkey is calling the shots more than ever. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Derek 2.0 Posted July 1, 2015 Report Posted July 1, 2015 Not stale at all unless you think April is stale. http://www.businessinsider.com/f-35-engine-problems-2015-4 A report released in April, covering the audit of the aircraft last year........reread your link ffs: However, Pratt & Whitney disagree with both the GAO report and the report from the Inspector General. Matthew Bates, a spokesman for the company, told Business Insider via email that the "DoD IG report is based on their audit in November of 2014." "Since then, P&W has worked aggressively to address the DoD IG’s findings and corrective actions. This was an audit of P&W’s quality system and F135 contractual adherence, not an audit of F135 product quality. None of these findings had any impact on the product performance." Pratt & Whitney is scheduled to complete all necessary changes highlighted in the Inspector General's report by July. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted July 1, 2015 Report Posted July 1, 2015 Yep...pointing to other nations...large and small...who have already made strike fighter procurement decisions only highlights the fact that Canada can't/won't. The political monkey is calling the shots more than ever. Remember several years back when the experts stated the F-35B was to be cancelled and would never work as intended? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAFnhIIK7s4 Somehow, the Marines managed to deploy an entire flight aboard the Wasp a month ago and the World didn't end, nor did the flight deck melt as the experts said it would Quote
Mighty AC Posted July 1, 2015 Report Posted July 1, 2015 Seems the F-35 isn't performing very well. "Even with the limited F-16 target configuration, the F-35A remained at a distinct energy disadvantage for every engagement." In an interview with the CBC's The Fifth Estate in November of 2014, F-16 co-designer Pierre Sprey berated the F-35 "inherently a terrible plane, because it's built based on a dumb idea"—a multirole, multi-service aircraft. "You've compromised the aircraft horribly for three different missions, and then you've compromised it again for three different services." He said the aircraft was "astonishingly unmaneuverable" because of its ratio of wing surface to weight. "In dogfighting, it's hopeless. "While much of what Sprey said in that interview has been rebutted at length elsewhere, the F-35 test pilot report seems to offer the same conclusion. http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/06/report-in-test-dogfight-f-35-gets-waxed-by-f-16/ Quote "Our lives begin to end the day we stay silent about the things that matter." - Martin Luther King Jr"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities" - Voltaire
On Guard for Thee Posted July 1, 2015 Report Posted July 1, 2015 A report released in April, covering the audit of the aircraft last year........reread your link ffs: Completely cherry picked of course. Maybe you should re read it. And possibly click o some of the links within. Sorry to rain on your parade. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted July 1, 2015 Report Posted July 1, 2015 Completely cherry picked of course. Maybe you should re read it. And possibly click o some of the links within. Sorry to rain on your parade. Cherry picked? Are you denying the audit, as your link states, covered a period from last year, and the prescribed changes will be finished this July, the same month that the first F-35B squadron goes on operational deployment? Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted July 1, 2015 Report Posted July 1, 2015 Cherry picked? Are you denying the audit, as your link states, covered a period from last year, and the prescribed changes will be finished this July, the same month that the first F-35B squadron goes on operational deployment? Call it operational deployment if you wish. Its still just white knuckle flight testing. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted July 1, 2015 Report Posted July 1, 2015 Call it operational deployment if you wish. Its still just white knuckle flight testing. No, its an operational deployment, by an operational USMC squadron, that will deploy with a USN ARG, with thousands of other Sailors and Marines, and would go into harm's way if required by the National Command Authority. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 1, 2015 Report Posted July 1, 2015 F-35s are ramping up production...squadrons are taking deliveries...type training is in progress for paying customers. Canada dithers...as usual. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
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