Immigration

[marcus]

Marcus, it seems Trudeau Sr's policies made it unaffordable to have big families in Canada.

What?

It's Trudeau Sr.'s fault that you are going against King Harper's belief that we need immigration?

[waldo]

Marcus, it seems Trudeau Sr's policies made it unaffordable to have big families in Canada.

how many years back will you go, hey PIK? Which policies?

[Argus]

The interesting thing here is that these anti-Muslim..err.. anti-immigration crowd are huge advocates of the Harper government which has already said that we NEED immigration and that we need to increase immigration in order to keep up with the high rate of retirement and low birthrates.

Interesting that the anti-Jewish crowd is so supportive of Muslim immigration. Harper temporarily raised immigration this year, the announcement preceding the election call by a few months. Gee, what a coincidence!

Harper is a political whore like the rest of them. I'm hardly an advocate for him when I say he's the least worst of a bad lot.

[Argus]

no worries... I will always take a freebie handed to me! It's too bad you didn't read your own cite reference, hey!

I read it. I simply didn't care since it was easy to disprove.

.

no need to get so defensive... if you're going to draw references to 20-30 year old data,

Most of the data is much more recent, but you have thus far failed to address or counter any of it.

is there any... any... nuance in your NO IMMIGRANTS position?

First of all LOL! Hearing YOU talk about nuanced positions! :lol:

Second, my position is not 'no immigrants', it's 'let's ask the experts to study what number and what type of immigrants we want based upon Canada's needs'.

Apparently this offends you, deeply!

[Michael Hardner]

You can't have a national immigration policy based on anything but general terms. And it seems entirely logical to me to base it on the value vs the difficulties a given type of immigrant brings to the table. And yes, you can statistically analyse immigrants from different regions, for the government has done so, at least as far as economics go.

But the system they develop, even as basic as it is, doesn't ever include "if you're from this country you can't ome". That doesn't serve Canada well.

That would depend on the accuracy and purpose. If you were running a hip hip club and chose not to advertise to me because, as a middle aged white guy, I probably wouldn't be interested, I wouldn't find much disapproval in my heart.

How about a quota system to keep you out of a job because you're clearly a racist prone to violence (you're not, but the aggregate statistics can be made to show such things) and therefore unfit for a diverse workplace ?

[Michael Hardner]

So mike if you don't like my view ,I am not allowed to share it.

I already said as much: we have to live with you and your opinion. You're already Canadian, presumably, and we can't kick you out.

And your posting proves that you will not stand up to anything.

It proves no such thing. I'm standing up to you, aren't it ?

The rest of your post is a lament against the French, but I have no truck in that fight either.

[Michael Hardner]

Uh huh. You've done everything but suggest I'm a member of the KKK over the years, and express your relief that old people with such beliefs are dying off.

I can't deny that I'm relieved that old opinions are fading away, but you have to believe me that I (online) like you and respect your ability to discuss based on facts. It's taught me a lot about discussing things with people who have vastly different values. I'm sincere in saying that.

I don't even think you're a racist, so much. I'm a bit befuddled with the suggestion that I have painted you as such, although I may not remember a heated argument or two. I do remember pointing out to your adversaries that tagging you with one term or another wouldn't defeat your well constructed arguments or words to that effect.

No, they're not. Most Conservatives are not particularly religious, for one thing. I'm certainly not. I'm also pro choice. As to gay marriage, it's one thing to feel gays shouldn't marry, as many conservatives do, and another to feel they should be locked in prison or executed, as many Muslims do. I wouldn't call that particularly aligned.

Sorry - I retract my point. I thought you wrote Christians for some reason, not Conservatives.

[Hudson Jones]

Uhm, no, they weren't. They were cold facts. Which do you dispute? Are you even capable of understanding the difference between 'feelings' and facts?

Facts means that it has to be true. They are pretty much all feelings, based on your ignorance.

In the post WW2 period, when a lot of non English Europeans arrived, most of them, without very good English, could still find work in the trades, and other not very complicated jobs. Today, without an excellent command of the language, and a recognized skillset, you're largely going to be on low income wages the rest of your life. That means that, given our progressive tax system, you're not going to be paying taxes to pay for all the services like health care and education you consume.

In the early 70's the unemployment rate was around 6%. Same as year 2007. So that fact alone squashes your premise and therefore, your opinion.

Not only that, but you're also unable to understand that majority of immigrants that come to Canada have post secondary education, have a good command of English and bring a decent amount of savings with them to put into the economy. It's understandable if they're going to find it challenging to settle and adjust the first few years, but eventually, they do well in Canada.

[Argus]

But the system they develop, even as basic as it is, doesn't ever include "if you're from this country you can't ome". That doesn't serve Canada well.

How does it not serve Canada well? If group A as a whole, has a high rate of economic success in Canada, earning three times what group B earns (and thus paying more in taxes), then we should bring in more from Group A and less from Group B. This seems patently obvious to me. How could that possibly not serve Canada well?

How about a quota system to keep you out of a job because you're clearly a racist prone to violence (you're not, but the aggregate statistics can be made to show such things) and therefore unfit for a diverse workplace ?

First you'd have to demonstrate, statistically, that white men are more racist than any other group. In my experience, they tend to be less racist than any other group. 100% of the most racist, bigoted things I've ever heard said came from non-Whites.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Argus

[Bonam]

In my experience, they tend to be less racist than any other group. 200% of the most racist, bigoted things I've ever heard said came from non-Whites.

You forget that according to the SJW cult's doctrine, only Whites can be racist, period. Just ask cybercoma or Black Dog, they'll be happy to "explain" it to you.

[Argus]

I can't deny that I'm relieved that old opinions are fading away,

Let's examine this, for a moment. The only 'old opinion' I can legitimately be accused of, is largely preferring to be around my own kind. I freely confess to it. Now, what makes you think this is dying out? I'm pretty sure I have posted studies before, and can do so again, which show that that sort of attitude is pretty much universal, not only across this country, but across the world. People, by and large, are more comfortable around those who are pretty much like them. That doesn't mean they're xenophobic or prejudiced. It just means that our psychological comfort zone exists with those like us.

[Argus]

In the early 70's the unemployment rate was around 6%. Same as year 2007. So that fact alone squashes your premise and therefore, your opinion.

Uhm... how? The general unemployment rate has nothing to do with how economically successful immigrants are in Canada. And I've already posted several cites indicating that immigrant economic success has been deteriorating for decades. They have higher unemployment and lower earnings than Canadians, and unlike in earlier years, they don't catch up.

Not only that, but you're also unable to understand that majority of immigrants that come to Canada have post secondary education,

And I posted a piece earlier today indicating the unemployment rate of immigrants with post secondary education is something like 14% while it's under 4% for Canadians.

have a good command of English

I've also posted a study by the TD indicating immigrant illiteracy is costing us billions. Want me to post it again?

Much ink has been spilt on the difficulties faced by newcomers to Canada and, in particular, the challenges of integration into the labour market. The barriers they face, including inadequate language skills and credential recognition issues, are reflected in the widening gaps in labour market outcomes relative to native-born Canadians.

http://www.td.com/document/PDF/economics/special/ff0212_immigration.pdf

Here's another.

Immigration boosts Canada's illiteracy rate

Immigrants make up a large percentage of Canada's illiterate population. Findings in the Southam Literacy Survey also cast doubt on the effectiveness of immigrant language courses given an estimated 100,000 immigrants this year.

Thirty-five per cent of foreign-born residents in the survey were unable to handle everyday literacy tasks; this rises to 42 per cent when adults from the U.S. and British Isles are excluded.

http://www.nald.ca/library/research/brokword/page22.htm

Edited August 14, 2015 by Argus

[waldo]

I've also posted a study by the TD indicating immigrant illiteracy is costing us billions. Want me to post it again?

Much ink has been spilt on the difficulties faced by newcomers to Canada and, in particular, the challenges of integration into the labour market. The barriers they face, including inadequate language skills and credential recognition issues, are reflected in the widening gaps in labour market outcomes relative to native-born Canadians.

http://www.td.com/document/PDF/economics/special/ff0212_immigration.pdf

yet more of your weasel moves... earlier you dropped a couple of quotes without providing linked references! And now... please provide a quote reference within your "go fetch" linked reference that directly supports your statement that, as you say, "immigrant illiteracy is costing us billions" - waiting...

.

Here's another.

Immigration boosts Canada's illiteracy rate

Immigrants make up a large percentage of Canada's illiterate population. Findings in the Southam Literacy Survey also cast doubt on the effectiveness of immigrant language courses given an estimated 100,000 immigrants this year.

Thirty-five per cent of foreign-born residents in the survey were unable to handle everyday literacy tasks; this rises to 42 per cent when adults from the U.S. and British Isles are excluded.

http://www.nald.ca/library/research/brokword/page22.htm

wow! That's some mighty self-serving quote mining you're doing there! Here, let me fill out your narrative a bit from that same article:

Immigration is a mixed blessing for literacy in Canada.

The Southam survey discovered large-scale immigration accounts for about one million of Canada's 4.5 million adult functional illiterates.

But the grown-up children of these immigrants, born in Canada, score higher in literacy than longer-established Canadians.

In addition, the three-million-plus immigrants now living in Canada barely nudge the national illiteracy level upwards, from 22 per cent for native-born residents by themselves to 24 per cent overall.

but hey, good on ya for taking on Canada's illiteracy problem... but, uhhh.... although your reference is from the survey "Why 5 million Canadians are illiterate", you don't seem to be at all concerned about the other '4 million illiterate non-immigrants'!

.

Edited August 14, 2015 by waldo

[Michael Hardner]

How does it not serve Canada well?

Because it's far too simple a model.

If you said something like "people from country A who have this kind of education and speak this language" are more likely to succeed, it would indicate you had a more complicated and likely more accurate predictor of success, assuming of course that they're not trying to import low wage labour, that that's not a goal.

First you'd have to demonstrate, statistically, that white men are more racist than any other group. In my experience, they tend to be less racist than any other group. 100% of the most racist, bigoted things I've ever heard said came from non-Whites.

Hmmmm.... so you think that it would be beyond the ability of people to prove that men are more violent, or perhaps that they cheat at taxes more, or [pick some negative trait]. I think it could easily be done by someone.

[Michael Hardner]

Let's examine this, for a moment. The only 'old opinion' I can legitimately be accused of, is largely preferring to be around my own kind. I freely confess to it. Now, what makes you think this is dying out?

Purely anecdotal evidence, based on the attitudes and words of people I have known all my life.

I'm pretty sure I have posted studies before, and can do so again, which show that that sort of attitude is pretty much universal, not only across this country, but across the world. People, by and large, are more comfortable around those who are pretty much like them. That doesn't mean they're xenophobic or prejudiced. It just means that our psychological comfort zone exists with those like us.

I don't think you can extend a study like that to saying people don't want immigrants in Canada, though. We're arguing a tower of babel, or at best your social circles versus mine.

[Big Guy]

Bigotry, racism and xenophobia are personal and subjective views growing for a long time in an environment of hate and distrust. They cannot be rationalized, excused or convincing to those who not only tolerate but celebrate diversity. Bigots also cannot be convinced of the error of their positions because that would require them to find other excuses for their failures. Those who are unable to elevate themselves in society attempt to demean and depreciate other groups, races and religions in an attempt to save their self esteem.

They continue to thrive through the medium of anonymity since being accountable for their views would mean shunning from most neighbors and co-workers. Racists and bigots cannot be convinced of the danger of their views since these views form the basis for their vision of society. To accept that they are mistaken would force a complete restructuring of their lives - a reality that is too frightening to attempt.

Michael - I congratulate your perseverance. You exhibit the same tenacity as did the early Christians who trekked into the jungles to convert the heathens. I wish you better success.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Big Guy

[Michael Hardner]

Michael - I congratulate your perseverance. You exhibit the same tenacity as did the early Christians who trekked into the jungles to convert the heathens. I wish you better success.

The so-called heathens are part of our community, though, and if you're looking for someone who can put forward valid concerns about immigration policy with a rationale, Argus is your guy.

[Big Guy]

I suggest that there is a big difference between immigration policy and demeaning and insulting minorities.

But - It is after all your position (not mine) to attempt to teach the unteachable.

Thank you for the reply.

[Canada_First]

Let's examine this, for a moment. The only 'old opinion' I can legitimately be accused of, is largely preferring to be around my own kind. I freely confess to it. Now, what makes you think this is dying out? I'm pretty sure I have posted studies before, and can do so again, which show that that sort of attitude is pretty much universal, not only across this country, but across the world. People, by and large, are more comfortable around those who are pretty much like them. That doesn't mean they're xenophobic or prejudiced. It just means that our psychological comfort zone exists with those like us.

I have no desire to embrace the Urban Thug lifestyle either. Nor will I cover my wife from head to toe in fabric so we can go out or treat her like property. So in order to not be around these things I choose to live in a mostly white area of the nation. Problem solved.

[CITIZEN_2015]

I have no desire to embrace the Urban Thug lifestyle either. Nor will I cover my wife from head to toe in fabric so we can go out or treat her like property. So in order to not be around these things I choose to live in a mostly white area of the nation. Problem solved.

I like your user name though not the fact that you generalize all non-Caucasians are covering their wives head to toe and treat them like a property. Generalizations like this are indicative of ignorance and possibly bigotry. So you confine yourself to white areas right? I guess that you won't see head to toe covered ladies but how about issues mostly associated with so called while areas like alcoholism, drugs, prostitution and sexual assaults..... etc.

Edited August 14, 2015 by CITIZEN_2015

[PIK]

everybody can have their own country and rules excepts whites? Look at what we have built in the last 200 yrs, and lets look at the muslim countries that are still acting like it is the 10th century. So bring that attitude over here and in time this country will be a shithole also.

Edited August 14, 2015 by PIK

[Canada_First]

I like your user name though not the fact that you generalize all non-Caucasians are covering their wives head to toe and treat them like a property. Generalization like this resembles ignorance and possibly bigotry. So while area hey? I guess that you won't see head to toe covered ladies but how about issues mostly associated with so called while areas like alcoholism, drugs and sexual assaults..... etc.

I don't wish to embrace the black urban gangster lifestyle where drug dealing, gangs and murders are rampant and persistent problems.

Nor do I want to live near Muslim communities in our cities where huge swaths of fabric covered shapes are all over our sidewalks. Muslims largely treat their women like property. Second class to men. Watch them or people from India when they are out on the town walking or shopping. The women will sit in the back seat of the car and will walk behind the man.

My wife is my partner not my property. We're in equal partnership. She is not my subservient. We treat each other as equals. What message do you think the above is sending to our young women who grow up seeing this?

So, no I don't choose to live around these above situations. Am I a racist because of that?

[Canada_First]

everybody can have their own country and rules excepts whites? Look at what we have built in the last 200 yrs, and lets look at the muslim countries that are still acting like it is the 10th century. So bring that attitude over here and in time this country will be a shithole also.

White countries are the only countries where forced immigration is being thrust upon it. I see no non white countries having to be diverse, so why is it so important that white nations be diverse but not the others?

[Argus]

but hey, good on ya for taking on Canada's illiteracy problem... but, uhhh.... although your reference is from the survey "Why 5 million Canadians are illiterate", you don't seem to be at all concerned about the other '4 million illiterate non-immigrants'!

.

You neglected to fully read the report, particularly this part:

The Southam survey discovered large-scale immigration accounts for about one million of Canada's 4.5 million adult functional illiterates. Thirty-five per cent of foreign-born residents in the survey were unable to handle everyday literacy tasks; this rises to 42 per cent when adults from the U.S. and British Isles are excluded.

You don't find it a problem when 42% of immigrants (excluding US and UK) are illiterate!?

[CITIZEN_2015]

I don't wish to embrace the black urban gangster lifestyle where drug dealing, gangs and murders are rampant and persistent problems.

Nor do I want to live near Muslim communities in our cities where huge swaths of fabric covered shapes are all over our sidewalks. Muslims largely treat their women like property. Second class to men. Watch them or people from India when they are out on the town walking or shopping. The women will sit in the back seat of the car and will walk behind the man.

My wife is my partner not my property. We're in equal partnership. She is not my subservient. We treat each other as equals. What message do you think the above is sending to our young women who grow up seeing this?

So, no I don't choose to live around these above situations. Am I a racist because of that?

I understand that and you are entitled to your opinion and choice. But I am making a few points that you seem not to follow.

First not all Muslim men treat women as their property or second class citizens or not all Indians treats their wives as subservient but yes regretfully many do. Or not all blacks are criminals.

And second no culture is perfect. While I agree certain cultures have issues with how they treat their women (you hand picked Muslims and Indians or I have heard or read about many cases of WHITES BEATING AND ABUSING THEIR WIVES TOO) or statistically more blacks may be engaged in crimes and pimping than whites, the white culture have issues of its own and has its own imperfections and I mentioned a few in my post. Crimes are also committed by whites believe it or not!!!!.

Somehow some of you guys think that white culture is superior to other cultures and even a few think it is perfect. Well not so. It is different but not superior. It has its own problems.

Edited August 14, 2015 by CITIZEN_2015