Michael Hardner Posted August 13, 2015 Report Posted August 13, 2015 Prejudice, to quote Dennis Miller, means to 'pre judge'. On the subject of Muslims, he says, he's not 'pre judging' them, he's JUDGING them, according to their behaviour and cultural values. Judging them as a group is one thing, but passing judgement on an individual based on a single attribute that you have decided supersedes all else, that's prejudice. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
waldo Posted August 13, 2015 Report Posted August 13, 2015 The myth that immigrants will help deal with our aging population is just that, a myth, which demographics experts say is nonsense. from one of your own subsequently provided links: "Business leaders are right that Canada will have to depend on immigrants to maintain its standard of living. They already account for two-thirds of the country's population growth. By 2030, it will be 100 per cent." perhaps you could cite your "demographics experts" information to support your statement... something to counter your own provided link - yes? Quote
Argus Posted August 13, 2015 Report Posted August 13, 2015 Can you back any of that up or are we just hearing another Argus assumption? Been in a classroom in an urban centre lately? This shouldn't need backing up. Forty three percent of the population of Vancouver is now Asian, the majority of them having arrived within the last forty years, and that number continues to rise with continuing immigration. It will be a majority Asian city within ten years. More than half of Toronto's population is foreign born, and that number is rising, as well. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted August 13, 2015 Report Posted August 13, 2015 Judging them as a group is one thing, but passing judgement on an individual based on a single attribute that you have decided supersedes all else, that's prejudice. But I'm only judging them as a group. And it's as a group we make decisions about what kind of newcomers to bring into Canada. As a group, Muslims present problems to social cohesion with their backwards social views, and according to the government stats, they, as a group, have much lower earnings than other immigrants, low enough that they won't be paying any taxes. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
On Guard for Thee Posted August 13, 2015 Report Posted August 13, 2015 Been in a classroom in an urban centre lately? This shouldn't need backing up. Forty three percent of the population of Vancouver is now Asian, the majority of them having arrived within the last forty years, and that number continues to rise with continuing immigration. It will be a majority Asian city within ten years. More than half of Toronto's population is foreign born, and that number is rising, as well. And what is the percentage of the Muslim population overall do you reckon? Quote
Argus Posted August 13, 2015 Report Posted August 13, 2015 from one of your own subsequently provided links: perhaps you could cite your "demographics experts" information to support your statement... something to counter your own provided link - yes? Sure. What you are quoting is the opinion of the Toronto Star columnist who was doing a piece on the Toronto Dominion study on the deteriorating economic situation of immigrants. Its necessary, if you are writing for the Toronto Star, and doing a piece about a 'problem' with immigration, to praise immigration. But remember, the idea that immigrants who do not succeed economically are going to be beneficial to economic growth is doubtful at best. If they're not making enough to be paying income tax they're a drain on the taxpayer. Further, Goar confuses economic growth with population growth. As I said earlier, a bigger pie only helps if there aren't more people eating it. Growing the gross national product is nice, but it's the wealth of this country on a per capita basis that really matters to most of us. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Big Guy Posted August 13, 2015 Report Posted August 13, 2015 To On Guard For Thee - "If people are informed they will do the right thing. It's when they are not informed that they become hostages to prejudice." - Charlayne Hunter-Gault If you keep trying and it is not sinking in then , "It's an universal law-- intolerance is the first sign of an inadequate education. An ill-educated person behaves with arrogant impatience, whereas truly profound education breeds humility." ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn Lots of luck! Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Michael Hardner Posted August 13, 2015 Report Posted August 13, 2015 It is patently obvious that YOU don't "like" people if they have a certain conservative viewpoint. Not at all. I like you (as much as it's possible in an online setting) and your values are entirely different than mine. Yet you love to pretend that you're superior to those who don't approve of Muslims because of the conservative viewpoints held by most Muslims. Your perception of my superiority is your own, not mine. In fact, I'd go so far as to say everyone on this site who defends Muslims hate conservatives for their social views. You know that this is not true of me based on my consistent support for the Trinity Law School, but maybe it's true for others. This despite the fact conservative social views in this country are miles to the Left of most Muslim immigrants. Oh, they're pretty aligned in a lot of cases, for example in certain religious matters like pro-life, gay marriage etc. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Argus Posted August 13, 2015 Report Posted August 13, 2015 And what is the percentage of the Muslim population overall do you reckon? It's doubling every ten years. So the issue isn't what it is now but what it will be in future, especially as both opposition parties want to drastically increase immigration as well as lower educational and job skill standards. Let me put it this way, certain people, including some on this web site, speak darkly about the "Jewish influence" on politicians in this country. Well, there are 385,000 Jews in Canada. According to the last household survey done by Stats Canada in 2011 there were just over 1 million Muslims here. However, based on continuing immigration (without regard to the increase proposed by the opposition) their numbers are expected to rise to almost three million by 2030 http://www.immigration.ca/fr/2015/131-canada-immigration-news-articles/2011/february/564-canada-s-muslim-population-rapidly-expanding.html The notion that all of them are going to be smoothly integrated into Canadian society and bring their cultural value beliefs several hundred years into the future to match with ours is wishful thinking. As is the notion that the Muslims born in Canada are going to be of the same cultural value set as we are, adn ignore their religious and cultural heritage. But they will e 6.6% of the population in 15 years, and that number will continue to go up rapidly. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted August 13, 2015 Report Posted August 13, 2015 To On Guard For Thee - "If people are informed they will do the right thing. It's when they are not informed that they become hostages to prejudice." - Charlayne Hunter-Gault If you keep trying and it is not sinking in then , "It's an universal law-- intolerance is the first sign of an inadequate education. An ill-educated person behaves with arrogant impatience, whereas truly profound education breeds humility." ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn Lots of luck! Shouldn't you be back on the ISIS topic defending them and saying how we're so much worse than they are? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Michael Hardner Posted August 13, 2015 Report Posted August 13, 2015 But I'm only judging them as a group. I get that, but you're not just forming opinions, you're applying rules to every single individual who has that attribute. People try to do that about white males, too, and it's similarly wrong. Would you approve the approach if it were used against you ? Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Argus Posted August 13, 2015 Report Posted August 13, 2015 I get that, but you're not just forming opinions, you're applying rules to every single individual who has that attribute. People try to do that about white males, too, and it's similarly wrong. You can't have a national immigration policy based on anything but general terms. And it seems entirely logical to me to base it on the value vs the difficulties a given type of immigrant brings to the table. And yes, you can statistically analyse immigrants from different regions, for the government has done so, at least as far as economics go. Would you approve the approach if it were used against you ? That would depend on the accuracy and purpose. If you were running a hip hip club and chose not to advertise to me because, as a middle aged white guy, I probably wouldn't be interested, I wouldn't find much disapproval in my heart. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
PIK Posted August 13, 2015 Report Posted August 13, 2015 So mike if you don't like my view ,I am not allowed to share it. And your posting proves that you will not stand up to anything. And it is not all about me, millions more agree. Look at what Trudeau Sr did, he ripped the soul out of English Canada ,while protecting Quebec's rights and values. If you only speak English, you cant work for the federal government and now they want all SC judges to speak French, so no more English only judges. So what that means is we are not getting the best people for the jobs. And people say PET was not a separatist. So really mandarin should be our 2nd language not French. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
Argus Posted August 13, 2015 Report Posted August 13, 2015 (edited) Not at all. I like you (as much as it's possible in an online setting) and your values are entirely different than mine. Uh huh. You've done everything but suggest I'm a member of the KKK over the years, and express your relief that old people with such beliefs are dying off. Oh, they're pretty aligned in a lot of cases, for example in certain religious matters like pro-life, gay marriage etc. No, they're not. Most Conservatives are not particularly religious, for one thing. I'm certainly not. I'm also pro choice. As to gay marriage, it's one thing to feel gays shouldn't marry, as many conservatives do, and another to feel they should be locked in prison or executed, as many Muslims do. I wouldn't call that particularly aligned. Edited August 13, 2015 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
On Guard for Thee Posted August 13, 2015 Report Posted August 13, 2015 So mike if you don't like my view ,I am not allowed to share it. And your posting proves that you will not stand up to anything. And it is not all about me, millions more agree. Look at what Trudeau Sr did, he ripped the soul out of English Canada ,while protecting Quebec's rights and values. If you only speak English, you cant work for the federal government and now they want all SC judges to speak French, so no more English only judges. So what that means is we are not getting the best people for the jobs. And people say PET was not a separatist. So really mandarin should be our 2nd language not French. Since when do you have to be bilingual to work for the federal government? Quote
PIK Posted August 13, 2015 Report Posted August 13, 2015 Tell me. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
Big Guy Posted August 13, 2015 Report Posted August 13, 2015 (edited) "One day our descendants will think it incredible that we paid so much attention to things like the amount of melanin in our skin or the shape of our eyes or our gender instead of the unique identities of each of us as complex human beings." ~Franklin Thomas Looks like that day has not yet come. Edited August 13, 2015 by Big Guy Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
waldo Posted August 13, 2015 Report Posted August 13, 2015 Sure. What you are quoting is the opinion of the Toronto Star columnist who was doing a piece on the Toronto Dominion study on the deteriorating economic situation of immigrants. Its necessary, if you are writing for the Toronto Star, and doing a piece about a 'problem' with immigration, to praise immigration. isn't it a beeatch when one of your own provided links doesn't support your agenda? Speaking of your agenda and the purposeful manipulation you're putting forward: in looking at your provided cites/quotes in this post, you're crafting quite the selective and most self-serving reference guide, aren't you? You provide quotes from sources you don't provide (like from the Fraser Institute and StatsCan) and you most selectively pick from references that reflect upon 1980's-1990's/2001 and 2006 Canadian census data and/or study... along with a 2011 update from the same author you reference in regards that same 2006 census data... notwithstanding the questionable timeliness of your information... and here I thought there was a 2011 census - go figure! Oh wait, don't tell me... surely the Harper Conservative end to the long-form census isn't the reason you're drawing reference to the 2006 census... surely! But I digress: of your referenced author's 2 studies, of the first study that you actually quote from, the author makes no distinction within the so-called "immigrant classes"... he simply takes a broad-brush and applies it to all immigrants (without distinction) in drawing comparisons to non-immigrants. In regards the second study, you never quote from the link you provide to it... you never quote from it; rather, again, instead you provide quotes from your unreferenced/non-cited sources! Perhaps in your haste/zeal you tripped over your enthusiasm! Now, whether one accepts that most recent study author's update analysis or not, in that 2011 study update (still referencing 2006 data... that you link to but never quote from), the author further qualifies a distinction within so-called "immigrant classes"... something that completely counters your "NO IMMIGRANTS" agenda; specifically: It presents the data which shows that immigrants from less developed countries are doing much worse than immigrants from industrialized countries. And unlike previous studies, it focuses on why immigrants from particular countries and regions do worse than others, rather on a comparison with non-immigrants. Using regression analysis it shows that key explanatory variable for the poor performance of recent immigrants are their education, their visible minority status, their language skills, their occupations, and their countries of origin. A profiling of immigrants who have done better than non-immigrant Canadians suggests that the performance of immigrants could be improved by utilizing information from the Census on the characteristics of immigrants who succeed in labour markets to improve the selection criteria and distribution of points used in the current scoring system to choose immigrants, but this would leave untouched the problem of the under performance of immigrants who are not selected under the point system. This paper reaffirms and updates to 2005 our knowledge that the earnings in immigrants varies significantly by country of origin and that language and the portability of education credentials is a contributing factor. It concludes with some observations on the implications of its analysis for immigration policy. Quote
CITIZEN_2015 Posted August 13, 2015 Report Posted August 13, 2015 (edited) It is really a prejudiced view to put everyone in one group and ban them all together because they happened to be born in a certain region or belong to a group of people. Saying no immigrants from Muslim countries regardless of their individual beliefs and standards does certainly qualify for that (at least if you had said no Muslim extremists I would have agreed but painting all with one brush ......) and saying that does not qualify you as brave or standing up for this country but someone who encourages prejudism. Religion is not a choice. It is something people are born with and many choose not to pursue that in adulthood so lets not generalize all saying no certain race or certain regions as immigrants and assess each individual case by case rather than region by region. I have said it before a few times that we need to reduce the number by half in order to let time to absorb new comers and not to overload our health and education systems. And i have said those who wish to live their traditional way are better off to live in their own home country and asked them not to bring their issues and problems here or try to impose their way of life on us but making statements such as no immigrants from Muslim countries is too far and in my view a case of prejudism. Edited August 13, 2015 by CITIZEN_2015 Quote
Argus Posted August 13, 2015 Report Posted August 13, 2015 Since when do you have to be bilingual to work for the federal government? Having worked for the government for some years, I can say that all pretty much all important positions require a very high level of bilingualism now. In the National Capital Region I believe 65% of ALL jobs are designated bilingual, despite the fact most of the occupants of those jobs have no dealings with the public whatever. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted August 13, 2015 Report Posted August 13, 2015 (edited) isn't it a beeatch when one of your own provided links doesn't support your agenda? Speaking of your agenda and the purposeful manipulation you're putting forward: Well, you see Waldo, unlike yourself, I don't find the need to be especially careful to cherry pick my cites so that they agree 100% with me. in looking at your provided cites/quotes in this post, you're crafting quite the selective and most self-serving reference guide, aren't you? You provide quotes from sources you don't provide (like from the Fraser Institute and StatsCan) and you most selectively pick from references that reflect upon 1980's-1990's/2001 and 2006 Canadian census data and/or study... along with a 2011 update from the same author you reference in regards that same 2006 census data... AS I'm fairly sure you are aware, Stats Canada data is mostly based on the census, which is only held every five years. After it is collated and released academics can then go through it to discern relevant information. If you feel any of the data is out of date and now no longer relevant, feel free to point it out. In the meantime, feel free to peruse a few more cites. Canada / Increases in immigration level bring immigrants real wages down http://jobmarketmonitor.com/2014/02/13/canada-increases-in-immigration-level-bring-immigrants-real-wages-down/ Recent Immigrants in Canada – 14 per cent of university-educated are unemployed, 3.3 per cent for Canadian-born university grads http://jobmarketmonitor.com/2014/08/01/recent-immigrants-in-canada-14-per-cent-of-university-educated-are-unemployed-3-3-per-cent-for-canadian-born-university-grads/ Immigration | Fiscal Burden | Canada : Recent immigrants cost an estimate of $16.3G to $23.6G annually http://jobmarketmonitor.com/2012/11/10/immigration-fiscal-burden-canada-recent-immigrants-cost-an-estimate-of-16-3g-to-23-6-g-annually/ Edited August 13, 2015 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
waldo Posted August 13, 2015 Report Posted August 13, 2015 Well, you see Waldo, unlike yourself, I don't find the need to be especially careful to cherry pick my cites so that they agree 100% with me. no worries... I will always take a freebie handed to me! It's too bad you didn't read your own cite reference, hey! . AS I'm fairly sure you are aware, Stats Canada data is mostly based on the census, which is only held every five years. After it is collated and released academics can then go through it to discern relevant information. If you feel any of the data is out of date and now no longer relevant, feel free to point it out. no need to get so defensive... if you're going to draw references to 20-30 year old data, I will most certainly highlight the "timeliness" of your data. If your repeated references are to the now dated 2006 census, I will certainly point that out and question why you didn't provide anything related to the 2011 census. Was my pointed reference to the subsequent Harper Conservatives gutting of the long-form census... just a tad too much for you to deal with? . In the meantime, feel free to peruse a few more cites. is there any... any... nuance in your NO IMMIGRANTS position? In keeping with your other very strong/forceful position, would that just be "NO MUSLIM IMMIGRANTS" - yes? . Quote
marcus Posted August 13, 2015 Report Posted August 13, 2015 The interesting thing here is that these anti-Muslim..err.. anti-immigration crowd are huge advocates of the Harper government which has already said that we NEED immigration and that we need to increase immigration in order to keep up with the high rate of retirement and low birthrates. Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
On Guard for Thee Posted August 13, 2015 Report Posted August 13, 2015 The interesting thing here is that these anti-Muslim..err.. anti-immigration crowd are huge advocates of the Harper government which has already said that we NEED immigration and that we need to increase immigration in order to keep up with the high rate of retirement and low birthrates. Perhaps some Harper men speak with forked tongue. Quote
PIK Posted August 13, 2015 Report Posted August 13, 2015 Marcus, it seems Trudeau Sr's policies made it unaffordable to have big families in Canada. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
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