Alberta's NDP government appoints out of province staff

[Black Dog]

Not at all. Some Libertarian principals appeal to me; but not all. I am a non-partisan independent.

And that claim is the biggest joke of all given your content post road to Damascus conversion.

[socialist]

And that claim is the biggest joke of all given your content post road to Damascus conversion.

You see, you didn't question me when I was a hyper partisan socialist. You have blinders on. I've removed mine.

[Black Dog]

You see, you didn't question me when I was a hyper partisan socialist. You have blinders on. I've removed mine.

Because I never bought the act.

Also, even if it's all on the up and up, swinging from one partisan extreme to the other doesn't make you non-partisan.

[socialist]

Because I never bought the act.

Also, even if it's all on the up and up, swinging from one partisan extreme to the other doesn't make you non-partisan.

I was't selling an act, therefore there was nothing for you to buy. But now, you are wasting my time with you nonsense. I am an independent, undecided voter. You are hyper-partisan, and your type of hyper-partisanship discourages me.

[Black Dog]

I was't selling an act, therefore there was nothing for you to buy. But now, you are wasting my time with you nonsense. I am an independent, undecided voter. You are hyper-partisan, and your type of hyper-partisanship discourages me.

I was starting to think you don't actually know what "partisan" means. This confirms that suspicion.

Edited August 26, 2015 by Black Dog

[kimmy]

I'm sure that if Albertans had just voted for Jim Prentice in the last election, the world price of oil would already be in triple digits again.

-k

[alexei_kz]

I didn't say it's a booming economic miracle, I said there is no money in oil in Alberta right now, and it would be a proper business/economical practice to invest into a new technology. Obviously, the prices of green electricity aren't there yet, but unless there is a serious effort to change directions, things won't magically improve.

[Accountability Now]

I'm sure that if Albertans had just voted for Jim Prentice in the last election, the world price of oil would already be in triple digits again.

-k

I appreciate your sarcasm however the reality is that Prentice would be struggling with the low price of oil just as anyone. The difference between Prentice and Notley is that he would have presented a budget by now which would at least give the companies an idea of the rules over the next little while thus eliminating some of the uncertainty causing the fragile economy. Instead, Notley has delayed for months and continues to delay putting these companies into limbo.

I also don't know if this fragile oil market is a time to start increasing corporate taxes. Not saying taxes can't go up but the timing of it just wasn't good.

I also know that Prentice would be following through on bringing costs back to moderate spending that one would expect in a fragile economy. Instead, our teachers, nurses and doctors continue to be the highest paid in Canada even though Alberta is in the tank.

[Black Dog]

I appreciate your sarcasm however the reality is that Prentice would be struggling with the low price of oil just as anyone. The difference between Prentice and Notley is that he would have presented a budget by now which would at least give the companies an idea of the rules over the next little while thus eliminating some of the uncertainty causing the fragile economy. Instead, Notley has delayed for months and continues to delay putting these companies into limbo.

If they had released a budget, you'd be complaining they rushed it out without as full grasp of the economic situation.

I also don't know if this fragile oil market is a time to start increasing corporate taxes. Not saying taxes can't go up but the timing of it just wasn't good.

If oil prices were high, people would be saying it would be a bad time to raise taxes because it would drive businesses to other markets.

I also know that Prentice would be following through on bringing costs back to moderate spending that one would expect in a fragile economy. Instead, our teachers, nurses and doctors continue to be the highest paid in Canada even though Alberta is in the tank.

Amazing that can be the case even as Alberta has some of the lowest public spending per capita among the provinces and the lowest in the country as a percentage of GDP.

[BubberMiley]

Concerning the NDP,are they or are they not extremely close to the Public Service unions?

You could look at real-world examples of NDP governments to give you an indication. Has the NDP in, say, Manitoba given the keys to the public sector unions? They've gone many years with 0% increases. They were offered 1% for their recent contract but the union decided on arbitration in the hopes of getting 2%. In Manitoba, private sector wages are expected to increase 2.5% next year.

[Accountability Now]

If they had released a budget, you'd be complaining they rushed it out without as full grasp of the economic situation.

Perhaps but only because the issue at hand is they were completely unprepared to take office and are just now trying to learn how to do the job. Any real contending party would have prepared a budget for the election and would be ready to implement it, however the NDP were as surprised as any that they got in. Getting in was the fault of the Alberta people however not being prepared to get in is the fault of the NDP.

Having said that there sure is a smell of delaying the budget until after the Federal election.

If oil prices were high, people would be saying it would be a bad time to raise taxes because it would drive businesses to other markets.

No. You use this time to enforce tax laws that get implemented when oil does go high. You let industry know that you are working with them and that when oil goes up, so do the taxes. The same should be reflective of other expenditures unless you want to base everything on low oil price and decide how to spend the surpluses later

Amazing that can be the case

But it is the case...aside from the Territories of course. Here is the rankings for the teachers:

http://www.bctf.ca/uploadedfiles/public/bargainingcontracts/teachersalaryrankings2013-14brief.pdf

Here's doctors....

Here is a Stat's can link documenting public sector salaries by province. http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/govt62e-eng.htm

Most provinces around 47-50k per person (average). BC is at 54k and Ontario is at 55K. The national average is at 53k. Alberta is at 61k....why? Does Alberta have much better public servants? Probably not....they get paid more because there is more money here....because of the oil. So when the oil goes down....should their salaries not be more reflective of national averages or of at least BC/Ontario?

Alberta has some of the lowest public spending per capita

Alberta still spends more per capita than Ontario, BC and Quebec. Which are the largest populations and more representative for us to compare Alberta to versus Sask or maritime provinces.

[Black Dog]

Perhaps but only because the issue at hand is they were completely unprepared to take office and are just now trying to learn how to do the job. Any real contending party would have prepared a budget for the election and would be ready to implement it, however the NDP were as surprised as any that they got in. Getting in was the fault of the Alberta people however not being prepared to get in is the fault of the NDP.

This is bullshit. Any budget they made on the campaign trail would be out the window the second they had a look at the actual books.

Having said that there sure is a smell of delaying the budget until after the Federal election.

So? What's wrong with that? The outcome of the election is going to impact the budget. Why bother with a budget you'll need to revamp in just a few months?

Most provinces around 47-50k per person (average). BC is at 54k and Ontario is at 55K. The national average is at 53k. Alberta is at 61k....why? Does Alberta have much better public servants? Probably not....they get paid more because there is more money here....because of the oil. So when the oil goes down....should their salaries not be more reflective of national averages or of at least BC/Ontario?

First: it's clear you have an inkling that the boom had an impact on consumers costs and prices which would in turn drive up salaries (otherwise, how else will you get people to work?). The disparity between Alberta and the rest of Canada was even greater when you compared private sector wages. But the notion that salaries should ebb and flow with the price of oil...do you actually not understand how salaries and collective bargaining contracts work? Do you think trained professionals like doctors and nurses should be subject to the same kind of arbitrary wage and job reductions as some high school student working the rigs?

Alberta still spends more per capita than Ontario, BC and Quebec. Which are the largest populations and more representative for us to compare Alberta to versus Sask or maritime provinces.

You do know what "per capita" means, yes?

But anyway, let's take your argument that Alberta spends too much on the public service: who do you think is responsible for that and why would you trust them to fix it?

Edited August 28, 2015 by Black Dog

[Accountability Now]

This is bullshit. Any budget they made on the campaign trail would be out the window the second they had a look at the actual books.

No its not bullshit. They may have to tweak a few things but it wouldn't take six months to do it IF they were prepared...which they weren't. Add to the fact, the PC's left them with a surplus so the books can't be that bad. In fact they probably have more to spend then they thought.

I'm curious....can you name other governments that waited this long to present their budget after coming into power? Maybe that would solve it.

So? What's wrong with that? The outcome of the election is going to impact the budget. Why bother with a budget you'll need to revamp in just a few months?

What's wrong with that? They are delaying the budget so their Federal comrades don't take any heat for the budget they proposed here in Alberta. Even after the federal election happens, it will take time for any party other than the Conservatives to implement their budget. Now are we suppose to wait for that too. Obviously you don't know how private sector works.....time is money. Waiting this long will force decisions to be made and that's not a good thing especially when its only purpose to benefit the federal NDP

First: it's clear you have an inkling that the boom had an impact on consumers costs and prices which would in turn drive up salaries (otherwise, how else will you get people to work?).

Even with this boom, the cost of living in Alberta has not increased equally. Housing prices aren't as high as BC and ONT. Gasoline is on the lower end compared to most provinces. And any retail cost is relatively comparable except Albertans enjoy no sales tax....so one less cost. Add to the fact that our marginal tax rate is the lowest of any province. So the reality is that the 'costs' of living in Alberta are lower than other provinces yet we are still paying our public servants higher than anyone in the country. I would say that your argument works to a point but not to a point that explains why the public servants are the highest in the country.

The disparity between Alberta and the rest of Canada was even greater when you compared private sector wages.

I love this argument. People want to look at the public sector the same as the private sector...why? Do you know what happens to the public sector when the economy slows down? They can't spend as much or may not get that raise or possibly they lose out on certain benefits. Do you know what happens to the private sector? People lose their jobs....by the masses. Companies go bankrupt. People lose a lot of money on investments. Etc. Take a look at the people in Alberta that are now out of work due to this crash. They aren't teachers or doctors....they're drilling contractors, truckers, tradesmen....etc. Sure they enjoy the times of boom but they also suffer the times of bust. Why should the public sector get rewarded for booms but feel no effect from the bust? Job security is a tangible benefit but somehow its never considered in the equation.

PS...I don't work in the oil field so I don't get the joys of the booms either...but I sure am enjoying this time of not having a bust.

But the notion that salaries should ebb and flow with the price of oil...do you actually not understand how salaries and collective bargaining contracts work?

I get it...you're a union guy so you think its impossible to negotiate something that is actually fair and workable for BOTH sides. However, the reality is that with a boom and bust economy, their needs to be provisions put in that make it a sliding scale. The fact that Redford gave into the Union and gave them such a big increase was the reason she got in over the Wildrose in the first place. It was stupid and ended up costing the PC's as they knew it wasn't sustainable.

With that said, salaries and collective bargaining contracts CAN be written in logical ways that are understanding of the economic times but unions won't allow for it.

Do you think trained professionals like doctors and nurses should be subject to the same kind of arbitrary wage and job reductions as some high school student working the rigs?

There is no risk of job reduction unless the population decreased. However salaries can adjust both ways. If not then why do they benefit from the increased salaries when times are good? Again....they are the highest paid in Canada and our cost of living isn't. Why??? Its not like doctors are running off to work the rigs. We have no risk of losing them to industry.

The volatility is created by the oil industry. If they don't want the volatility that comes with oil then they can't have oil type wages. Take the good with the bad.

You do know what "per capita" means, yes?

Hey....don't ask me that question....you were the one that screwed up stating that Alberta has some of the lowest public spending per capita which I showed is clearly not true. Perhaps I should be asking you the same question.

But anyway, let's take your argument that Alberta spends too much on the public service: who do you think is responsible for that and why would you trust them to fix it?

As I stated earlier, the PC's under Redford caved to the unions in the election that everyone thought the Wildrose was going to win. They increased their salaries to be the highest paid in the country and that was a major reason for the swing back to PC. For that reason alone, I agreed that it was time for the PC's to leave office....I had no problem with that result AT ALL. However, I am not ok with another, fresh government coming in and pandering to the union. Its fairly simple to me...you are either on the 'oil' train or not. If you want the top level salaries and all the benefits from oil during the good times, then be ready for the low salaries when oil drops. If you don't want those variations then pick a salary that is based on non-oil factors like comparisons to other provinces and go with that.

At this point the only party that I think would be capable of doing this is the Wild Rose, however I wouldn't bet on it. Needless to say, trust is not a word that I would use for anyone at this point.

[ironstone]

If Mulcair wins, he'll inherit an appalling Conservative record, just like Bob Rae. So the potential is there. Rae had to make difficult decisions as a result of Conservative mismanagement in Ontario.

And Bob Rae left with an even more appalling record!Rae made more bad decisions than difficult one's.In the end however,I think even Rae began to realize that it made no sense to keep piling up debt.

[ironstone]

if so... translate your wording; "giving keys to the Public Service unions" would mean what, to you?

Public servants in Canada generally have it better than most that work in the private sector in terms of pay and benefits,especially the defined benefit pension plan.

Between the Conservatives and the NDP,which one do you think would be more generous to the Public Service?

Between the Conservatives and the NDP,which party do you think has the most hard-core union activist's as members?

Giving the keys to the unions means they will widen the gap between the private sector workers if we get an NDP government.

[WIP]

Forty thousand Albertans have been laid off so far this year. The unemployment rate in Fort McMurray is 8%. Youth unemployment province-wide is 11.2%. And it’s only going to get worse.

So what is Lori Sigurdson, Alberta’s NDP Minister of Jobs doing? Is she holding emergency meetings with employers? Coming up with an emergency plan to rescue the oilpatch?

No. She’s out in British Columbia, campaigning for Thomas Mulcair.

Alberta is back in a recession but the NDP Jobs Minister is out yukking it up with her federal NDP friends, the party that has publicly called for an oilsands moratorium.

The Alberta provincial government is as corrupt and incompetent as every government of nations that have become used to the easy money coming in from oil revenues! You're going to blame this mess on the new NDP Government in Alberta! Alberta's economy is going to tank regardless of who's in charge, because the wheels are falling off the tar sands wagon, and there's not a damn thing any politician can do except make sure that basic needs and services are covered, and the economy finally starts to shift away from its long running oil dependency. The new government has a chance to clean house for the first time in nearly half a century! I hope the Rachel Notley government doesn't lose resolve and make half measures.

[socialist]

The Alberta provincial government is as corrupt and incompetent as every government of nations that have become used to the easy money coming in from oil revenues! You're going to blame this mess on the new NDP Government in Alberta! Alberta's economy is going to tank regardless of who's in charge, because the wheels are falling off the tar sands wagon, and there's not a damn thing any politician can do except make sure that basic needs and services are covered, and the economy finally starts to shift away from its long running oil dependency. The new government has a chance to clean house for the first time in nearly half a century! I hope the Rachel Notley government doesn't lose resolve and make half measures.

So you agree with the minister campaigning in another province? Wow.

[WIP]

So you agree with the minister campaigning in another province? Wow.

Or, I really don't care, and am just happy to see the Oil Party tossed out of office after nearly 50 years running Alberta!

[socialist]

Or, I really don't care, and am just happy to see the Oil Party tossed out of office after nearly 50 years running Alberta!

I agree. The PC party had to go. But I see things fro an independent, non-partisan viewpoint............you, unfortunately, do not.

[WIP]

I agree. The PC party had to go. But I see things fro an independent, non-partisan viewpoint............you, unfortunately, do not.

I was never in Alberta long enough to get a feel for the politics there years ago. In recent years, the opposition Wild Rose Party just came across as an even more extreme in-the- oil tank political collective than the PC's. It didn't look like there were any alternatives to the oil economy until now.

[ironstone]

Or, I really don't care, and am just happy to see the Oil Party tossed out of office after nearly 50 years running Alberta!

The PC party in Alberta had certainly fallen a long way from the strong leadership of Ralph Klein,but I'm not optimistic about the NDP running the show either.I hope they don't follow the lead of the Ontario Liberals.What a complete disaster that's been for us.

[socialist]

The PC party in Alberta had certainly fallen a long way from the strong leadership of Ralph Klein,but I'm not optimistic about the NDP running the show either.I hope they don't follow the lead of the Ontario Liberals.What a complete disaster that's been for us.

From what I'm seeing it will be just as bad, if not worse.