Black teachers still face racism on the job in Ontario Report finds

[H10]

So it is your claim blacks were not discriminated against even when there were laws made specifically against them, that even the white president admitted was racist, along with the white congress?

Where did I say all blacks perceive racism equally. Again you are trying to project your views onto me. It seems you are so blind to racism you cannot even admit that openly racist laws are indeed racist.

[Bonam]

It seems you are so blind to racism you cannot even admit that openly racist laws are indeed racist.

Like affirmative action laws, for example?

[H10]

Like affirmative action laws, for example?

So laws to correct past racism are racist? That is like saying racism should never be finished.

[Rue]

Laws to "correct" past racism can and do engage in reverse racism when they implement hiring not based on merit but solely on say skin colour. The intent behind them, addressing past racism, doesn't change what they are.

The concept of affirmative action was a method created to provide a different system of assessment that would apply to the targeted group with favourable treatment their competitors do not get to address a past injustice.

Therein lies the issue.

If you are a group who was discriminated against and no one afforded you affirmative action, and then you now see a group getting affirmative action for the same kind of treatment you overcame on your own it can breed resentment.

If you are lumped in as a "white" person and considered "privileged" simply because you are Caucasian yes that is a racist assumption. There are numerous Caucasians who were discriminated against where do you want to start, Irish? Ukes? Italians? Jews? Germans? Lower class Cockneys? Newfoundlanders? Cape Bretoners? Franco-Canadians, Acadiens, on and on.

I appreciate you feel blacks are entitled to historic redress and remedy but you only consider blacks. You do not consider the fact that virtually everyone in Canada came here for a new opportunity because where they came from presented injustice, discrimination, etc.

It is true some created power cliques but to assume all whites were privileged and in these power cliques is racist.

Now when I look at Canada from my minority perspective with due respect to you, the experience of blacks who came to Canada to escape slavery in the US and settled in Nova Scotia and Ontario is NOT at all the same as the experience of say West Indians or Africans that later came to Canada.

In fact the things West Indians an African immigrants have gone through are similar to what we Jews, the Irish and so many others went through, regardless of our skin colour.

Chinese and Siekhs who came to build the railroad suffered a unique kind of discrimination different from fellow ethnic members who came long after.

Every new Canadian has faced barriers, stereotypes, and forms of discrimination. Fllipinos and Jamaicans and other West Indians came as nanny class and faced obstacles.

Japanese, Italians and Germans during WW2 faced particular issues.

I myself was working in the NDP civil service of Bob Rae when handed a sheet and told to tick off my minority status. I was told only "Arabs" were inority semites and I could not mark myself descended from semites. There was a category for all kinds of minorities that would include people with skin no different than Caucasians but no boxes for Jews, Irish, Ukrainians, i.e., people who someone decided were white and therefore privileged.

Yah Ukes cae here fleeing famine with nothing any escaping Stalin yet in this equation were "white".Irish? Hey never mind they came here escaping famine-privileged. On and on this went? Why?

What I saw was a farse. I saw more qualified minority people turned away from jobs than whites with this affirmative action because once a quota was made-no more minorities with merit were considered and people were in such a rush to fill their minority quotas they didn't hire the minority with the most merit, just the first one that met their quota.

I was a union rep. I saw this wide spread reverse discrimination in fact tokenize the work force but do nothing to level the playing field, in fact just the opposite, easier for people to NOT hire minorities.

Its a fact that when this affirmative action program was implemented white, middle class women using their status as a minority flooded the civil service.

In my unit someone with zero training was hired and promoted simply because she was a woman.

Then there were my favourites, the persons who claimed to be black for job purposes but otherwise denied being black and put blacks down.

Me? I think the best person should be hired, period. I saw a very qualified candidate from South Africa who was hired yes, but never ever would be considered for a promotion because the quota system was used against him saying they already had a black at the level he wanted to go.

Affirmative action never helped him and it sure never helped the Irish, Jews,Ukrainians, all kinds of Asians, etc.

Its an ivory tower creation. Its intentions may have been intended to address racism but the methods used justified counter-racism to justify trying to undo racism with this naïve concept you could suddenly force minorities on people through imposition of laws.

Well you can to an extent, but forcing something upon someone does not change their discriminatory attitudes, in fact it my only serve to entrench them or justify them. White extremists paint themselves victims simply for being white.

To get people to change takes time, it has to happen over generations and its not just about skin colour, its about people of different cultures, not just skin colour learning to compromise and adapt common values also called assimilation. If anyone regardless of who they are is not willing to compromise and adapt to certain common views, but simply chooses to remain different and not want to change-nothing changes.

All affirmative action will do for someone who feels entitled is to justify their feelings of entitlement.

The attitude for example you show in your writings is your perspective is limited to the rights of whatever you call a "black".

Your vision or constituency seems to stop right there.

Mine is not black or white, its the whole lot of us all.

I want to see everyone get ahead on merit. In reality people form power cliques and networks to influence who is hired but often its not based on skin colour its based on other things and minority groups not just whites may be tempted to hire only people from their group not because of deliberate racis but because they can't speak English and need someone who speaks their language or they are hirin people from their village back home.

Whether someone discriminates out of insecurity, fear, ignorance, deliberate hatred,w ith good intentions, etc., I don't assign or assum one negative assumption on. For example, people can say all they want Irish only hired their own as firemen or policemen and dominated these areas, but that is because no one else would hire them.They had no choice.Same with Jews or Chinese and later Vietnamese in the garment businesss, or Fillipinons and West Indians in th nanny class or blacks on the railways as stewards, or Italians and Portugese in construction or bricklaying.

Minorities went by default to the areas no one else wanted.

All minorities then invested heavily so that there second maybe third generations becae "professionals" . To becoe "professionals" these minorities had to be three times as good and then still faced barriers. Jews had to start their own hospitals. Catholic minorities at least had the church run their hospitals meaning as long as you were Catholic you went to that hospital but if you were not white Protestant, many hospitals would not have you and certainly forget about a job in banking or insurance or in government.

In fact the United Way was used to block out non whites by forming a power network in the provincial government and unless you did United Way work you did not get promoted and since the Unted Way was white Protestant not just blacks, but all Catholics, Jews, Hindus,etc., found themselves unable ot get hired up until the late 1960's when under harsh criticism the United Way had to desegregate who it collected for.

Why do you think there was a United Jewish Appeal or special charities for non Protestant charities. It wasn't skin colour that created any of these exclusive barriers. Catholics come in all colours.

For that matter never assume just because someone was protestant they were privileged. If you were a protestant but a labourer or from the lower classes, you also were discriminated against just because of your regional accent.

So I a concluding by simply stating I do not assume there is only one or certain groups who were discriminated against and I do not assumeanyone is or was privileged as a given and that is my primary concern with affirmative action that assumes that.

That said, I am a believer in programs that identity barriers such as illiteracy, and addressing such things through programs. I understand in each community may be specific barriers different to other groups and differentiation as to what is funded should be recognized.

I am a strong believer in using music, sports, arts, crafts, nd community interaction between police and youth, parents and youth. I see that as an exercise to bring many together to learn through interaction mutual respect. I believe black parents and community membes yes may have a unique role for their own people but are important role models for non blacks and should not be unintentionally segregated way-we need colour blind role models-the best reedy for inequality is working together on volunteer projects in the sae community building together common values-case in point and example-Habitat for Humanity.

[H10]

Your claim affirmative action breeds resentment is non-sense, doing nothing about racism breeds resentment, so either way someone will be resentful. The Italians, jews, germans, french and acadeans and cape brentoners and new foundlanders all have their own schools. Look at the thread topic, you want to discuss every possible example in one topic, and you know its disinengenious because its impossible. Go start threads on those if you are so concerned. How would you know what the black experience is, are you black? Jews were 75% of the slave traders, I doubt they went through the same thing as West Indian immigrants. Your experiences are not that of teacher's in schools who are black. This is what the jew culture claims, to be merit based but they hire only jews. Only a white skin jew could talk about color blindness, when wide spread hatred is aimed at someone due to their color, the colorblindness arguements go out the window.

[Bonam]

So laws to correct past racism are racist?

The way to correct past racism is to stop having racist laws. And laws that are racist are racist, yes, whether they have "good intentions" or not.

Edited June 18, 2015 by Bonam

[Michael Hardner]

The way to correct past racism is to stop having racist laws. And laws that are racist are racist, yes, whether they have "good intentions" or not.

This is a new tactic, relatively speaking, to decry any law benefiting a racial group as racist because it 'treats people differently'. The politics of this aside, if it were to be adopted would result in no policies to ostensibly assist groups.

[H10]

The way to correct past racism is to stop having racist laws. And laws that are racist are racist, yes, whether they have "good intentions" or not.

That would be like saying someone steals from you, you sue them in court and the court orders they give you money back and damages and that thief then says the way to stop stealing is to stop taking money from people. Pretty outrageous.

[Bonam]

This is a new tactic, relatively speaking, to decry any law benefiting a racial group as racist because it 'treats people differently'. The politics of this aside, if it were to be adopted would result in no policies to ostensibly assist groups.

New tactic? It's the same position I've had since, well, ever.

[Bonam]

That would be like saying someone steals from you, you sue them in court and the court orders they give you money back and damages and that thief then says the way to stop stealing is to stop taking money from people. Pretty outrageous.

Individuals can and should be held accountable for crimes they have committed. Groups, on the other hand, should not be subjected to collective punishment.

[cybercoma]

New tactic? It's the same position I've had since, well, ever.

And it completely ignores systemic barriers faced by different groups of people.

[Rue]

And it completely ignores systemic barriers faced by different groups of people.

The buzz words systemic barriers were invented to mean what exactly does anyone even know what the f... a systemic barrier is? I love these buzz words.

The only thing new is how these buzz words are created to stick a new label on the same old stereotyping.

Affirmative action programs have only recognized certain groups of people who face "barriers" not all groups who face "barriers". There is necessarily a discriminatory and selective manner in which it is decided which supposedly disadvantaged groups are defined as worthy of reverse racism in their favour and those who are not.

Bonam's point is you either treat everyone the same or stop pretending that when you discriminate, your discrimination is justified because you think you are entitled to something.

Its a basic argument that has gone on long since people tried to create buzz words like systemic barriers to justify they be treated with privilege.

Systemic barrier you say? Tell me where were you "systemic barrier" analysts when all we minorities had to make it on our own with no help from anyone but ourselves? Where were you and where do you get off now taking a selective discriminatory view of only the group that concerns you?

What a crock.

Systemic barriers? Right.

So when do these privileges for the group that feels they are entitled end? The way I see them defined they never will-they remain because the people who create the words have deliberately set them up to be self serving and infinite in duration-they don't address inequality, they simply recreate it by creating a new privileged class. This isn't about equality-its about wanting to get advantages over others justifying that power grab claiming since others did it, you can too. Its wrong either way to set up 'barriers" that aid people with advantages not because of merit but because legislation identifies them as privileged.

Go one show me in an affirmative action program how it says the program will be phased out once equality is achieved. Right.

Thanks no one gave a Jew a damn thing in this country. No one gave a Ukrainian, an Irishman, an Italian, a Portugese person, a Chinese person, on and on anything. We earned it through hard work and merit.

You don't talk for us. The barriers remain for us and we deal with them. Affirmative action my Jewish butt. No legislation ever handed us a damn thing in this country nor did we ask for it. No Ukrainian demanded benefits when they came to the West,. No Dhoukabor escaping persecution asked for a damned thing. This country is built by minorities who bust their butts.

None of us asked for a damn thing from anyone. Respect comes not from whining entitlement to it, its through your own actions. If you show people in your actions not your words, that you expect no privileges, just a fair chance, that is what brings you together.

Call yourself entitled and demand privileges, all you are is an sob looking for a short cut around a long line as far as I am concerned.

No black man I know has whined waiting in line with me. I have waited in lines with people of every damn kind.

This isn't about racism-its about people who pull that card to demand they push in front of the line. I don't give a damn who they are, white, black, yellow, you push in front of the line we all wait in, I am going to call you what you are - a snively whiner looking for privilege.

Thank you but I have no problems standing in line with all the others. They show me in that action decency and honesty-that's what we build our common vision on, not whining we are victims entitled to a tit to suck on.

Edited June 18, 2015 by Rue

[Canada_First]

Both can't be wrong. When in history have blacks ever perceived widespread discrimination when none existed?

Present day Canada. Zero discrimination. Minorities control much of Canada. Are in positions of authority and are industry leaders. They're in control if thier own destiny. No one owes them anything. Having laws that benefit one group over another is racist. Just look at South Africa. They went from laws that benefitted whites to laws that benefit blacks. Both are racist.

[GostHacked]

This is a new tactic, relatively speaking, to decry any law benefiting a racial group as racist because it 'treats people differently'. The politics of this aside, if it were to be adopted would result in no policies to ostensibly assist groups.

Affirmative action DOES treat people differently. It's satisfying a quota instead of getting the right people for the job.

[Big Guy]

"Affirmative Action" is a process where enforced inequalities of today are supposed to make up for the perceived inequalities of the past. They did not work, they do not work and they will not work in the future.

[WestCoastRunner]

"Affirmative Action" is a process where enforced inequalities of today are supposed to make up for the perceived inequalities of the past. They did not work, they do not work and they will not work in the future.

Big Guy, you keep going on about how affirmative action fails, but you provide no links. Can you provide some cites for your conclusions.

[Canada_First]

Big Guy, you keep going on about how affirmative action fails, but you provide no links. Can you provide some cites for your conclusions.

Any government program that favours one race over another is a racist program. Plain and simple. It's racist and shouldn't be tolerated if we are all to be equal.

[GostHacked]

Any government program that favours one race over another is a racist program. Plain and simple. It's racist and shouldn't be tolerated if we are all to be equal.

As long as it is not Muslims getting those jobs .. right?

[Big Guy]

To WestCoastRunner - If there is an objective method of measuring a government or business initiative then those stats could be compared to the goals which the initiative was supposed to achieve.

If the success of the "goal" can be compared in numbers in employment, income etc then I would try to source them - except those numbers are created by those with vested interests in achieving those goals. I personally do not believe that affirmative action on gender or race or nationality issues have caused those in the minority to be any better off than if they had been left alone to be centered on merit.

I also believe that the resentment and questions of capability that have been created by affirmative action programs and quota systems have been far more divisive and problem causing than any attributed positive changes.

[Guest]

As long as it is not Muslims getting those jobs .. right?

You mean on merit, or because they are Muslims?

[GostHacked]

You mean on merit, or because they are Muslims?

Some here might want equality, but some here hold a different view on a certain set of religious people. That flies in the face of their very notion of equality.

I would hope that that would not be the case. But those words from some are hard to misinterpret, no matter how much they try to twist it.

[Guest]

Some here might want equality, but some here hold a different view on a certain set of religious people. That flies in the face of their very notion of equality.

I would hope that that would not be the case. But those words from some are hard to misinterpret, no matter how much they try to twist it.

I have to disagree. Every now and then there is a poster of the type you describe but they get banned pretty quick. The issue with Muslims and posting frequency is just that there is so much to post on.

As for jobs, my opinion is that jobs should be awarded on merit, not quotas.

[cybercoma]

I love it when a bunch of privileged white people who've never faced racial discrimination in a job interview or even putting out resumes when you have a non-white sounding name are talking about how everything should be based on merit.

Guess what. Everything isn't based on merit. Discrimination exists. Affirmative action rules are in place to counteract the imbalance in opportunities that certain groups of people face.

Everything should be based on merit. Race shouldn't matter. You're all right. But the problem is that it does matter and pretending that racial discrimination doesn't exist isn't going to make that go away for anyone but those who are privileged enough not to face it already.

[bush_cheney2004]

I love it when "privileged white people" presume to speak and represent the views and experiences of anyone who is not.

[Rue]

Privileged white people. Say now its amazing how when you make a racial stereotype Cyber then throw it out you think it passes as

acceptable while in the same breath you lament discrimination against blacks.

You disconnected from what you write? Who you?