Black teachers still face racism on the job in Ontario Report finds

[H10]

Report finds many have encountered bias in schools, and half think it's hurt their chance of promotion.

Many black teachers across Ontario still face racism on the job, according to a new study of educators, half of whom said they believe being black has hurt their chance of promotion. Some told of hearing the ‘N’ word used in the staff room and being mistaken for a trespasser.

“I had a supply teacher tell me I am not allowed to park my car in staff parking,” said one of the 148 black educators across 12 Ontario school boards surveyed for a report to be released Friday. “The ‘N’ word was used in casual conversation in our staff room,” said another. “I was introduced as ‘home girl’ to a student teacher.”

The 63-page report, The Voices of Ontario Black Educators, prepared for the Ontario Alliance of Black School Educators (ONABSE), calls for Ontario to enact tough employment equity legislation, provide training against anti-black bias, set targets for promoting teachers of colour and cluster black teachers in particular in schools where there are high numbers of black students.

We’re disappointed, but not surprised at the findings — racism is still deeply ingrained in society,” said Warren Salmon, interim president of ONABSE, which commissioned the report because of concerns expressed by its members.

Of the black teachers, principals and vice-principals surveyed, one-third said they believe they have been passed over for advancement because they are black. Some 27 per cent said racial discrimination by colleagues affects their day-to-day work life and 51 per cent said they believe anti-black bias at their school board affects who gets promoted.

Equity consultant Tana Turner of Turner Consultants conducted the survey, and called for school boards to “set equity goals and timetables — not just have an employment equity office which merely measures the numbers of employees …

“If the government wants to close the gap in racial diversity between students and those at the front of the classroom,” she said, “legislation and other government interventions may be needed.”

The report included numerous anecdotes of “micro-aggressions … the everyday slights, insults and indignities” that imply black teachers don’t belong:

• One was “asked by a principal if I would ever consider straightening my hair.”

• Another was “told I should steer away from too much black history in the class as black history is not important when no black students are present.”

• On arriving at a new job assignment, “colleagues asked if I am a new caretaker.”

• “A colleague was shocked that I was raised by both parents — and expressed it in the staff room.”

Turner noted that in 2011, 26 per cent of Ontarians were “racialized” (visible minorities) — a figure that soars to 72 per cent in Markham, 66 per cent in Brampton, 54 per cent in Mississauga and 49 per cent in Toronto. However, she said the percentage of teachers of colour lags behind the population.

So, the same white secretaries, teachers and principals who are racist to non-white teachers are suppose to give non-white students a fair shake? The aboriginal-centric, chinese-centric, indo-centric and africentric schools are looking better by the day.

Although I am interested to see how this turns out. We all know canadian corporate culture never allows you to blame anyone. So it will be interesting to see how this turns out.

[Freddy]

I've noticed many black teachers at my daughters school. It's part of a employee plan to have equal opportunity employment. I didn't see any racism towards him. He did do better with discipline then all the white teachers. That was all I noticed.

Edited May 30, 2015 by Freddy

[Rue]

The subjective comments reported as "racism" in need of government intervention speak for itself. There has been no connection established between the subjective remarks being described and and the hiring process of all teachers. The fact that people make comments that are based on subjective stereotypes does not mean those people are in any position to hire someone.

Its one thing to go through life discussing ignorant comments made about us because of stereotyping.All minorities will face it and for the most part we learn to cope with it. Going the next step and without any explanation leaping to the conclusion that there is "systemic"racism in need of reverse discrimination to address it supposes the people making the ignorant comments don't hire people who are of minority status.

Ironically some of the most likely people to make those kinds of ignorant comments claim to be liberal and would be the first to discriminate in favour of the very people they express ignorance about. You only need to read the comments on this board to see how people claiming to sympathetic or pro Muslim often make the most patronizing and ignorant stereotypes of Muslims in the name of tolerance.

How we deal with each other one on one is not something you simply slap a racist label on, then demand moe blacks be hired, and then presto society suddenly becomes equal. Racism which is a simplistic term turning ignorance into a black and white concept and in this context used only to describe perceived insults to blacks, happens every moment of the day with each and every category of people.

Government imposed hiring policies often create token hires and so resentment towards those token hires. Many resent the token hiring as not properly addressing merit and competence as qualifications for the position. Preferential hiring can serve as a panacea- a magic pill, but its no cure-its a reaction.

You want effective human relations it comes one on one, slowly over generations between people learning what they share in common. Visible minorities and all kinds of minorities can not and for the most part don't demand anything from government. They deal with their barriers, the best WE can one on one and what we seek in terms of equality comes over many generations through struggle. That struggle is the fuel to our achievement. It can break or build us.

No one hired Jews through government quotas.Like blacks and other minorities, we learned we had to be twice as good and grin and bare the insults so the next generation might not have to. No government policy has ever spoken as loudly as Jackie Robinson's sheer abilities or Jesse Owens running to excellence as he did in front of Hitler. Minorities break through when ordinary people like them doing extra ordinary things. They find some super human strength inside them and they put down a legacy not just for their own people, but all people.

Do not get me wrong, real barriers can exist for certain peoples, but there is a big difference between an ignorant one on one comment and an institutional policy that discriminates. People who make ignorant comments are not necessarily implementing any hiring practices. They are often simply express their own ignorance and its often not intended to be deliberate or mean and nothing speaks more loudly than merit, i.e., a black teacher, who smiles when asked if they are the janitor, and simply says no, I am the principal of the school. That's not step and fetch it behaviour, that is the pride in all minorities that speaks loudest.

You can look at these subjective remarks and see racism under your bed, or look at such comments as reminders we all, all of us, make subjective assumptions and so need to learn from our mistaken assumptions.

As for hiring practices, start a thread on that but can you first look at the actual hiring practices in place that do address and try identify and reduce barriers for the disabled and minority groups. They are already in place in the school boards. Provide proof they are not working.

Nothing in the subjective remarks presented above shows they have failed or are not working.

My close colleague was hired because she was black.The school board openly said so. They begged her to go work in a high black school area. She has an MA in Spanish and speaks it fluently. They wanted her desperately because she was black as a visible minority symbol in her school. She just wanted to be treated like any other candidate. She was not and did not like that. I get that, but I would also like to say, she was hired out of merit as well as being black. Her being black addressed a real need, but she is there because she is qualified not because she is black.We sometimes forget in our rush to hire people for whatever reason we think justifiable, nothing can replace merit and competence. Hiring minorities who are not competent won't help anything. She is a role model not just for blacks but all students.

All of us must be role models for our community' children. All of us. Most of us know that. Most of us when it comes to youth and the young try to be responsible.Minorities learn not just from their own people BUT people of other minority or ethnic status how to prevail. Therein is the key.You can not understand for example anti Semitism, until you understand why for those that choose to be, others do not. The best teachers for me as to how to respect my Jewish identity were Christians and others some with skin colour difference others simply of a different ethnic group or gay putting up with insults and prevailing.

Lol I grew up playing hockey and the dirty Jew comments were inevitable.I learned to deal with them from fellow players who were called micks, waps, pepsis, n..'s, etc. We showed each other the way. Best fight I ever had was with aMohawk wacked in the head with a stick protecting me as I stopped a screen shot and he was pushing the guy away from in front of my crease for me. The names flew I went right in there covering his back and we all were fighting and I still remember his grin as someone called him a wig wog and he got them good.We all had a beer after.All of us ignorant racists on both sides. Things like that taught me tolerance.By understanding I was not the only one ridiculed,I finally got it. You take your place in this world learning through this crap.It can hurt but there is a lesson there if you fight through it.

I am and will always be ignorant. We all are.Its human nature. But I might think twice about the other guy before I react now. I think how important it is to remain dignified, be abe to stay calm and above it. I learned that from irish, Ukes,Italians,Mohawks, on and on.

Jackie Robinson, now there is someone who believe it or not made me understand how to deal with life. Jean Beliveau, Bobby Orr, Frank Mahovolich, Jim Brown,Jim Thorpe, Hailey Wickennheirser,Jesse Owen, Babe Ruth, I could go on. They come in every shade imaginable and gender too. I draw the line at Bruce Jenner though. I just can't deal with him and his family. Too much plastic surgery. They sneeze God knows what will happen.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Rue

[Michael Hardner]

Hernanday - you're talking about a REPORT but you didn't add a link to the report. Please add that cite when you're commenting on the news. Thank you.

Here it is:

http://www.thestar.com/yourtoronto/education/2015/05/29/black-teachers-still-face-racism-on-the-job-in-ontario.html

[Big Guy]

Any time you apply quotas to a hiring process, the quality of expertise goes down. When you substitute any other criteria to hiring than merit, the quality of hirees decreases. That is a high price to pay for political correctness.

[H10]

Any time you apply quotas to a hiring process, the quality of expertise goes down. When you substitute any other criteria to hiring than merit, the quality of hirees decreases. That is a high price to pay for political correctness.

Question, if white principals are meeting a white quota then should a second quota be brought in to balance things out, or should we permit just white quota only?

[Big Guy]

We do neither. We allow principals to hire the best teachers based on their resumes and practice teaching results. When a teacher is hired, the main priority for the principal is someone who will be able to do the job so that in the future neither the principal nor the vice-principals will have to get involved with the union spending hours trying to extricate some incompetent teacher or spending hours with parents who are complaining about the teacher.

My experience is that principals will go with merit way before any personal agenda or quota.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Big Guy

[H10]

We do neither. We allow principals to hire the best teachers based on their resumes and practice teaching results. When a teacher is hired, the main priority for the principal is someone who will be able to do the job so that in the future neither the principal nor the vice-principals will have to get involved with the union spending hours trying to extricate some incompetent teacher or spending hours with parents who are complaining about the teacher.

My experience is that principals will go with merit way before any personal agenda or quota.

Well Big Guy, that is music to my ears, but all the objective research demonstrates in Canada, hiring is a closed market. 80% or so of the hiring is done through informal unadvertised networks. In fact when I graduated, I did an interview, and it went perfectly, the v.p. couldn't find a single reason to disqualify me. I knew who there 3 largest clients were, their company motto, could speak the lingo, knew what rates they charged and what they ate for breakfast too. He called me 2 weeks later and told me he'd hire me in the next opening because the spot was already predetermined before the interview for an internal candidate (another managers son) and the interview was just done due to company policy requiring interviews regardless. I later learned this person was grossly underqualified, not just in ratio to me but to other applicants as well. This is how business works in Canada, people would rather an underqualified person they know than risk having a bad relation with a qualified person.

And you commentary raises a whole host of other questions, mainly what determines the "best" candidate. I had the same credentials as everyone else working in my industry, in fact often the others had more degrees or higher education than I.

In fact often the teacher hired is the opposite of that. My brother is a teacher, and frequently majority principles will hire of a similar ethnic background, irregardless of the needs just to ensure they don't become a "minority". Ie. an Indian principal, will often make sure the staff is at least 50% south asian, even if it is a chinese area to makesure the chinese teachers don't gang up on him/her and complain.

Principles like most business people tend to go with agenda over merit. You see it all the time. That is why you get a bunch of white teachers in areas where 95% of white torontonians wouldn't never want to live. And typically they are terrible schools. The parents constantly complain about bad white teachers, the white teachers don't get the culture, a bunch of cultural misunderstandings occur and the teachers often end up suspended and in deep trouble. The kids don't respect nor like them and think they are racist. Its an all round lose, no one wins under such a system, just the principle who gets to stay entrenched in their position for fear a minority-majority staff would stage some fantasy coup-d'etat against them, Ironically the best white teachers, like the ones teaching in the private schools and good suburban schools want nothing to do with the minority schools, so they become dumping ground for bad white teachers, only creating more hostility on all sides.

Although I am way deep right now, we do have an issue of white principles meeting white quotas. I do agree the best teacher should be hired. But lets be realistic, good white teachers AVOID minority-majority areas, whites dislike being in the minority.

[Bryan]

But lets be realistic, good white teachers AVOID minority-majority areas, whites dislike being in the minority.

Everyone is more comfortable around people they understand. That's cultural, not racial. A white guy who speaks english will hang around the black guy who also speaks english before the other white guy who speaks french. The white guy who likes to talk about sports will hang around with the asian guy who likes to talk about sports before the white guy who likes to talk about sci-fi.

[Rue]

Hernday your posts are full of unsubstantiated assumptions that reflect your own subjective biases. You also engage in the device of expressing your personal subjective assumptions as objective facts. They are not. You have yet to provide any objective sources for your subjective opinions you pose as objective.

For example you stated "good white teachers AVOID minority-majority areas, whites dislike being in the minority.\"

That is a classic example of your subjective stereotyping. You have no proof white teachers avoid minority-majority areas. Zero proof for that statement.

It also is absurd because no teacher decides where they teach the school board does. They don' have that right. The second part of the sentence is

a bigoted statement. Its a continuing example of how you make bigoted statements. It is as ridiculous as saying blacks dislike being in the minority. Its an assumption, a thought and value process you have slapped on anyone "white".

It reflects your personal feeling you don't like being a minority and then you project it on whites. Speak for yourself. Stop taking our beliefs and projecting them on millions of people and assuming they must be the same. They are not.

I have been a minority my entire life. I was born into that. I had no control over it any more than any other minority does. Not all of us need to be a majority to feel good about ourselves. No I do not dislike being a minority. Why? Who among us is not in one sense. Its a fluid definition depending on who you are and who you are with. Speak for your own feelings of insecurity when finding yourself a "minority" don't speak for me, whites, blacks, anyone. You can't. You can only speak for yourself.

You said 80% of hiring is done through informal unadvertised networks.You made that percentage up. Provide the source.Don't pose things you throw out for discussion as fact without proof.Get real. In fact I think if you did research on finding jobs you would find out unadvertised jobs are even higher than 80%.

Here's the point, you are talking about the hiring process for schools. Its not private sector. The hiring process is public, transparent and does not allow private networking. You would know that if you actually took the time to understand how the hiring process actually works. You would also understand principles by themselves do NOT hire teachers. Selection committees using an objective criteria of points do. That process is transparent. In fact the only time race or ethnicity becomes a criteria is to ignore merit to hire minorities to meet a specific amount of minorities when that amount has not been met.

So with due respect you are just dead wrong.

As for your comments about yourself, it may be you were not hired because in your interview you come across as a close minded, rigid, inflexible, bigot.If I interviewed you an you expressed your thoughts as you do in writing I would not hire you in a second, not because you are black but because you can't differentiate your own subjective feelings from those of others, and come across as a victim, someone using their black status as a weakness. That would be my subjective impression of you from your words. It may not be fair, but it is what I would subjectively construe and it would have nothing to do with you being black-it would be criteria I would not want in an employee of any category.

Most employers today look for someone who "gets it'. It means they get that the environment they will walk into will never be perfect and so they look for someone with coping skills and coping skills that they can call on at an individual level. No more, no less.

You are approaching a wide public sector issue making sweeping generalizations and assumptions-how could you possibly cope in a private sector situation where people act arbitrary, secretive, contradictory at the best of times-ell? You'd see a racist everywhere. Using your criteria you live in a world where everyone is out to get you because of your skin colour. Good luck with that because guess what-everyone is in one sense out to get you but not because you are black, but simply because you are in a job that comes into conflict with its agenda with their own job's agenda. Its not you its the job,and I am not sure if you can see past your skin colour to get that.

You make a lot of accusations of preferential hiring and to be fair you are not being deliberately hateful when you say it or meaning to single out whites. I get that. I think you really believe the system is racist.My debate with you is that your theory for what you see as unfair practices may not be because of skin colour but because of other criteria used you have not taken the time to find out yet.

Slow down. Slow down a lot. Accusing any principle of unfair hiring based on ethnicity is a serious accusation. You need proof and you need to show how the current public school hiring practices are allowing this.You will have a big problem doing that. On the other hand, when it comes to private schools, and certain private sector jobs, of course I would concede to you there are out and out bigots who will not hire outside their own comfort zone whether that be race, etc.

Hell yes.I get it. I have seen the studies where a black man with a non accent and a white name is offered an interview but when he uses an ethnic name and/or an accent, no interview.

I actually conducted a study where I wore a yamacha at interviews and the audience watching me felt I was treated with more distrust and suspicion wearing one.

Surely I agree with you there is racism, discrimination, whatever word we want to use but you have to slow down with the accusations and take the time to look at the sector you criticize and its current hiring practices.

You are assigning powers to hire to the wrong people let alone giving them subjective powers they do not have.

By the way if I hire someone say in a Brampton elementary school yes I may hire someone who is brown-but did it ever dawn on you its because the parents of the students many not speak English and so someone who speaks Punjabi is needed? Does that mean they were hired simply because they were brown or because of their language fluency?

Hell if you can how me you speak th language(s) of the people I serve you bet that is a crucial criteria based not on your skin colour but merit for that position.

Its reality.Our schools reflect a huge mix of minorities many who have parents that do not speak English. Toronto has over130 ethnic groups speaking over 80 languages according to Stats Can and the City of Toronto. Imagine the strain that puts on school boards to find people who when telephoning parents or speaking with parents need to speak certain languages. Does that make it racist hiring them or a practical reality?

The other issue is this.As Canadian born minorities move through the school system the number of graduates capable of teaching will increase. It doesn't just magically presto happen.There is a transition period. In your world anyone of the same skin colour as you presto is entitled automatically entitled to jobs. Not everyone of your skin colour speaks English let alone can read or write.You can't just demand entitlement. There has to be a transition period where you develop the skills required.

Government can not automatically make you qualified. Only you can do that and qualifications are not just based on skin colour. If it was that simple you would be Prime Minister by now.

Please understand I did not intend to be personal or negative in my comments. I am trying to match up my debate to what you said. I actually do not think you are intentionally being a bigot. I think you really do believe the world is unfair because you are black. All I am saying is the world is unfair but to all of us and its not necessarily because of our skin, its because its the way reality works. We have to learn to compromise and roll with the punches not look for automatic entitlement. We have to struggle,fight, often to do and achieve good things. That struggle will make us better people in the sense it will teach you the most powerful ally you have is yourself not government, not quotas.

[Rue]

Dead on Bryan.

[Big Guy]

To hernanday - you certainly have an opinion which is contrary to mine and I respect your right to express it.

I speak from over 30 years of experience in a number of aspects of Secondary School education in Ontario. I have not been directly involved for many years and have no reason to try to defend the process. I have not seen the kind of situations which you describe nor have I met other principals who have the agendas to which you refer. I have to assume that you are mistaken and/or are viewing the system through a clouded lens. That is unfortunate and I believe misleading as to the facts on the ground - especially if viewed objectively.

Thank you for your reply to my post.

[H10]

Everyone is more comfortable around people they understand. That's cultural, not racial. A white guy who speaks english will hang around the black guy who also speaks english before the other white guy who speaks french. The white guy who likes to talk about sports will hang around with the asian guy who likes to talk about sports before the white guy who likes to talk about sci-fi.

I don't dispute this. Its not racist that the best white teacher's go to the white schools. Its racist that they dump all the underqualified white teachers into a community with hardly any white kids where they just ruin their chance of education which is suppose to be the equalizer for the poor.

[H10]

To hernanday - you certainly have an opinion which is contrary to mine and I respect your right to express it.

I speak from over 30 years of experience in a number of aspects of Secondary School education in Ontario. I have not been directly involved for many years and have no reason to try to defend the process. I have not seen the kind of situations which you describe nor have I met other principals who have the agendas to which you refer. I have to assume that you are mistaken and/or are viewing the system through a clouded lens. That is unfortunate and I believe misleading as to the facts on the ground - especially if viewed objectively.

Thank you for your reply to my post.

Either teacher's of color are having mass delusions or there is indeed racism in promotion. The truth is white people for the most have never been able to detect anti-black racism specifically but racism in general.

In 1962, eighty-five percent of whites said black children had just as good a chance as white children to get a good education in their communities—this was in light of clearly open apartheid style laws which regulated blacks to 4th class citizens. And in 1969, year after the death of Martin Luther King Jr., 44 percent of whites told a Newsweek/Gallup National Opinion Survey that blacks had a better chance than they did to get a good paying job (black unemployment rate was more than double the white one at this time)—two times as many as said they would have a worse chance. In the same poll, eighty percent of whites said blacks had an equal or better chance for a good education than whites did, while only seventeen percent said they would have a worse opportunity

http://media.gallup.com/GPTB/specialReports/sr010711.PDF

The truth is whites have never been capable of accurately judging or determining the treatment of non-whites. If whites couldn't see in light of clear and open racial hatred apartheid style laws that we can all agree are bias, if whites couldn't detect that then, why should anyone believe whites have in the span of 50 years have developed the ability to not only detect racism which they couldn't detect in the past but far more subtle forms of racist behaviour? The likelihood of that is very very low.

I don't know if you have seen it or not. It is entirely possible you never seen it. You may have worked in a 90% white town, with only whites teachers. I don't know your situation. It is also entirely possible it occured in front of your eyes and you do not have the ability to detect it. 85% of whites couldn't detect clearly open racist laws and practices in the 1960s. There is no reason to believe they have all of a sudden become experts on detecting this.

And again, if I am exaggerating, why are 50% teachers of color agreeing that racism in promotion and treatment is the norm.

[H10]

Hernday your posts are full of unsubstantiated assumptions that reflect your own subjective biases. You also engage in the device of expressing your personal subjective assumptions as objective facts. They are not. You have yet to provide any objective sources for your subjective opinions you pose as objective.

For example you stated "good white teachers AVOID minority-majority areas, whites dislike being in the minority.\"

That is a classic example of your subjective stereotyping. You have no proof white teachers avoid minority-majority areas. Zero proof for that statement.

It also is absurd because no teacher decides where they teach the school board does. They don' have that right. The second part of the sentence is

a bigoted statement. Its a continuing example of how you make bigoted statements. It is as ridiculous as saying blacks dislike being in the minority. Its an assumption, a thought and value process you have slapped on anyone "white".

It reflects your personal feeling you don't like being a minority and then you project it on whites. Speak for yourself. Stop taking our beliefs and projecting them on millions of people and assuming they must be the same. They are not.

I have been a minority my entire life. I was born into that. I had no control over it any more than any other minority does. Not all of us need to be a majority to feel good about ourselves. No I do not dislike being a minority. Why? Who among us is not in one sense. Its a fluid definition depending on who you are and who you are with. Speak for your own feelings of insecurity when finding yourself a "minority" don't speak for me, whites, blacks, anyone. You can't. You can only speak for yourself.

You said 80% of hiring is done through informal unadvertised networks.You made that percentage up. Provide the source.Don't pose things you throw out for discussion as fact without proof.Get real. In fact I think if you did research on finding jobs you would find out unadvertised jobs are even higher than 80%.

Here's the point, you are talking about the hiring process for schools. Its not private sector. The hiring process is public, transparent and does not allow private networking. You would know that if you actually took the time to understand how the hiring process actually works. You would also understand principles by themselves do NOT hire teachers. Selection committees using an objective criteria of points do. That process is transparent. In fact the only time race or ethnicity becomes a criteria is to ignore merit to hire minorities to meet a specific amount of minorities when that amount has not been met.

So with due respect you are just dead wrong.

As for your comments about yourself, it may be you were not hired because in your interview you come across as a close minded, rigid, inflexible, bigot.If I interviewed you an you expressed your thoughts as you do in writing I would not hire you in a second, not because you are black but because you can't differentiate your own subjective feelings from those of others, and come across as a victim, someone using their black status as a weakness. That would be my subjective impression of you from your words. It may not be fair, but it is what I would subjectively construe and it would have nothing to do with you being black-it would be criteria I would not want in an employee of any category.

Most employers today look for someone who "gets it'. It means they get that the environment they will walk into will never be perfect and so they look for someone with coping skills and coping skills that they can call on at an individual level. No more, no less.

You are approaching a wide public sector issue making sweeping generalizations and assumptions-how could you possibly cope in a private sector situation where people act arbitrary, secretive, contradictory at the best of times-ell? You'd see a racist everywhere. Using your criteria you live in a world where everyone is out to get you because of your skin colour. Good luck with that because guess what-everyone is in one sense out to get you but not because you are black, but simply because you are in a job that comes into conflict with its agenda with their own job's agenda. Its not you its the job,and I am not sure if you can see past your skin colour to get that.

You make a lot of accusations of preferential hiring and to be fair you are not being deliberately hateful when you say it or meaning to single out whites. I get that. I think you really believe the system is racist.My debate with you is that your theory for what you see as unfair practices may not be because of skin colour but because of other criteria used you have not taken the time to find out yet.

Slow down. Slow down a lot. Accusing any principle of unfair hiring based on ethnicity is a serious accusation. You need proof and you need to show how the current public school hiring practices are allowing this.You will have a big problem doing that. On the other hand, when it comes to private schools, and certain private sector jobs, of course I would concede to you there are out and out bigots who will not hire outside their own comfort zone whether that be race, etc.

Hell yes.I get it. I have seen the studies where a black man with a non accent and a white name is offered an interview but when he uses an ethnic name and/or an accent, no interview.

I actually conducted a study where I wore a yamacha at interviews and the audience watching me felt I was treated with more distrust and suspicion wearing one.

Surely I agree with you there is racism, discrimination, whatever word we want to use but you have to slow down with the accusations and take the time to look at the sector you criticize and its current hiring practices.

You are assigning powers to hire to the wrong people let alone giving them subjective powers they do not have.

By the way if I hire someone say in a Brampton elementary school yes I may hire someone who is brown-but did it ever dawn on you its because the parents of the students many not speak English and so someone who speaks Punjabi is needed? Does that mean they were hired simply because they were brown or because of their language fluency?

Hell if you can how me you speak th language(s) of the people I serve you bet that is a crucial criteria based not on your skin colour but merit for that position.

Its reality.Our schools reflect a huge mix of minorities many who have parents that do not speak English. Toronto has over130 ethnic groups speaking over 80 languages according to Stats Can and the City of Toronto. Imagine the strain that puts on school boards to find people who when telephoning parents or speaking with parents need to speak certain languages. Does that make it racist hiring them or a practical reality?

The other issue is this.As Canadian born minorities move through the school system the number of graduates capable of teaching will increase. It doesn't just magically presto happen.There is a transition period. In your world anyone of the same skin colour as you presto is entitled automatically entitled to jobs. Not everyone of your skin colour speaks English let alone can read or write.You can't just demand entitlement. There has to be a transition period where you develop the skills required.

Government can not automatically make you qualified. Only you can do that and qualifications are not just based on skin colour. If it was that simple you would be Prime Minister by now.

Please understand I did not intend to be personal or negative in my comments. I am trying to match up my debate to what you said. I actually do not think you are intentionally being a bigot. I think you really do believe the world is unfair because you are black. All I am saying is the world is unfair but to all of us and its not necessarily because of our skin, its because its the way reality works. We have to learn to compromise and roll with the punches not look for automatic entitlement. We have to struggle,fight, often to do and achieve good things. That struggle will make us better people in the sense it will teach you the most powerful ally you have is yourself not government, not quotas.

have written a bible, and not a single source for all your claims. I presented facts, you don't like its your problem not mine. Teacher's pick the school they want to work, the principal picks the teacher they want. Whites dislike being in the minority, everyone white knows it Rue. Whites don't like being surrounded by non-whites, its called white flight, they don't even like living around non-whites if they become a minority. The white race is a global minority. This is where the term VISIBLE MINORITY comes from.

Because whites are the global MINORITY. So they had to invent a term to reflect this. So they called non-whites in white majority nations VISIBIBLE minority, to reflect the fact that whites are the actual regular minority. How would you know what I like and don't like. Everyone who lives in a white nation for as long as I have around as many whites as I have becomes an expert in whiteology. If you don't like my stats show stats that mine are false. You have no proof my stats are wrong. You aren't even quoting me correctly. I said 80% or SO, you pretended I said exactly 80%. The principal picks who they want, the committee's approve the candidates first, the principals get to pick who they want. I am not a teacher, so get your head out your rare. You are trying to project things onto me that are true of yourself. LOL, a jew telling others he is playing the victim and a bigot, o the irony, nobdy whines more about victimhood than you guys. I do work in the private sector, get along fine.

You seem to be very confused and bitter. You are the one who is obssessed with my skin color, are you some kind of jew racist or something, half your post is obssessing over my skin? You ignore the evidence and substitute your own. Provide a source that contradicts the 50% of teachers of color who I cited who believe that race is the factor in hiring and promoting. It is you who needs proof for your claim, I am the only one who has cited any evidence here, if you have proof it is not racial in that particular school system produce it. Your comments show your ignorance of the process. Anyone who knows squat about teaching know they bring in a translator for the purpose of communicating with parents. Rarely do you find some teacher who is actually fully fluent and goes into teaching. Languages and expression change and different accents and the fact that people tend to forget them over time too all of that is why board's give the schools translators. so again you are completely off the mark.

You are a real joker. I am not even interested in talking with you, your ignorance of the subject is so deep its almost useless. You have no facts or evidence you just make up bs as you go along. And this discussion is not about me or my skin color, although that is all your small mind can focus on. Actually everything you said was personal towards me. You turned a neutral discussion entirely about me and my skin color and then turn around and claim you aren't trying to be personal. Where did I say I applied for a teaching job, I don't work in education but somehow you try to insinuate that I do and I am angry that a "White teacher stole my job" or something. Its like you snorted before you posted Get your head out your fosset. I think you really think the world is unfair because your jew, and you didn't get hired for being jew, so you want to project that onto me. Its not my fault if employers didn't hire you for being jew. I have no problem against the jew. If the jew was qualified I'd hire him, so long as he didn't obssess and whine and project his racial fantasies of woe is me over being jew like you. Speaking of quotas, don't jew schools only hire jew teachers, that sure as hell sounds like a racist quota to me. Ooops there you go projecting again.

[bush_cheney2004]

...In 1962, eighty-five percent of whites said black children had just as good a chance as white children to get a good education in their communities—this was in light of clearly open apartheid style laws which regulated blacks to 4th class citizens. And in 1969, year after the death of Martin Luther King Jr., 44 percent of whites told a Newsweek/Gallup National Opinion Survey that blacks had a better chance than they did to get a good paying job (black unemployment rate was more than double the white one at this time)—two times as many as said they would have a worse chance. In the same poll, eighty percent of whites said blacks had an equal or better chance for a good education than whites did, while only seventeen percent said they would have a worse opportunity

A U.S. reference that is certainly not applicable to Ontario specifically, or Canada in general. "Visible minority" is largely a Canadian term not applicable to other "white majority" nations, and the employment law term excludes First Nations anyway.

[TimG]

Whites dislike being in the minority, everyone white knows it Rue. Whites don't like being surrounded by non-whites

That is an incredibly racist generalization. It is no different from someone claiming that blacks are criminals. Sounds to me you are looking for excuses to rationalize your own views rather than assessing event objectively.

[Bryan]

And again, if I am exaggerating, why are 50% teachers of color agreeing that racism in promotion and treatment is the norm.

For the same reason that 85% of whites said it was not happening -- perception is not necessarily reality.

[Rue]

What's a Jew school Hernaday,do you know? Are you talking about a private religious school? I stated in my response to you that you are mixing up the hiring practices of private schools and private sector businesses with pubic schools. Yes in a private religious school which you now call a "Jew school" which is an interesting term for someone so concerned about racism, yes, private religious schools discriminate.Of course they do in the sense a private Christian/Muslim/Jewish school hires someone of that faith. Its not skin colour, its religion. World Vision will only hire Christians in its charity. Women's shelter's dealing with rape victims who are women only hire women. In fact there is an exemption from the human rights laws for these these hirings and it has nothing at all to do with race. In the reference you used to "Jew school" you were referring to religion. A black Jew, a Chinese Jew, an Indian Jew,an Arab Jew, not just a white Jew would be hired, no different than if I used the analogy with a Muslim or Christian school.Jews like Christians and Muslims come in every skin tone. You don't get that and its a serious stereotype you make that shows your ignorance.

Private schools by their very nature choose to select out their particular culture, religion, language. Private schools don't ask for public taxes to fund themselves nor should they. The responsibility for me if I choose to teach my children to maintain their religious or cultural traditions is my responsibility not the government's.

In a public school the mandate is to serve all citizens without regard to colour, religion, etc. You want public schools to give preferential treatment to this concept you have that there is a category called "blacks". You even know who a black is? Does that include Muslims. Felashie Jews, Christians or do they have to be only from Africa, the West Indies, etc.

You want to try suggest that you can slap the tag on anyone you deem black and lump them all in one category and suggest West Indians, Africans, European blacks, Asian blacks, Latino Blacks, old Canadian blacks from NovaScotia-Ontario, black Americans-you just slap black on them, and presto you have a category?Nonsense. Their histories, cultures, ethnicities, languages, religions, are all different.

What you call a "Jew school" is a religious school. Blacks who would want a religious school, would to satisfy that need go to a Christian or Muslim school.

What you have done is try invent a term black but you haven't even defined it.I doubt you have a clue what it means other than someone who looks like they have a certain set of subjective physical characteristics and coloured pigment.

Now you called me ignorant. Fair enough because I have called your concepts ignorant. I do not call you ignorant, just the stereotypes you make of blacks, whites. Its your beliefs I challenge.

Now you still do not get it. You went off on a "Jew school" response and fail to see the difference between a private religious school and public non religious school. You can't see the difference.

You also keep saying teachers choose the schools they want to go to. Of course they do not. You accuse principals of unfair hiring practices and then can't differentiate between the hiring of school support staff in clerical functions with teachers.

You are making up as you go along and then saying I am doing the same. Good. You get all upset about it. The point is the hiring process for teachers in the school boards is public knowledge and on the school board web-sites or you can call the public school trustee in your neighbourhood and find out.

Something tells me you won't bother.

By the way you really need to read what you write before you write it. Schools hire support staff who speak the language of the parents of children so they can assist with translation. No they do not bring in translators. They use support staff, teachers who can speak the language of the students themselves. Students most often find themselves translating for their fellow students, parents and school.

Again and with due respect you need to research what you are saying.

I have mediated many disputes between schools and parents. Often and unfortunately, children do the translating not just of language but cultural value differences. Some kids resent that burden. They spend a lot of time translating for their fellow students and parents and it cuts in to their own lives. Does it provide them a sort of new learning skill, yes- it teaches them flexability and that's good, but its an emotional burden at times for them.

I doubt you have a clue what I said in the last paragraph.

As for your Jew responses to me,as a minority I have a right to state what I do. Your tone takes on a superiority attitude that no one can talk of being a minority in a majority society if they have white skin. You have repeated that bigoted generalization several times. Its nonsensical. The fact you think I have pale skin does not mean I have not been exposed to discrimination. I choose to deal with it the way many minorities including blacks do-in a different way than you.

Now you said I am bitter. About what? Tell me. Where did I write I feel bitter about being a Jew.Did you see me state since I live in a world of non Jews I am an expert on gentiles as you ridiculously stated about being an expert on whiteology?

When you make statements that you are an expert on whiteology, you lose any semblance of credibility.

I can only speak at times for what it feels like to me a minority from my perspective. I limit it to that.Unlike you I don't use that perception as a rationalization as you do, to stereotype and project thoughts and characteristics on anyone non Jewish.

By the way this suggestion I am bitter-really?Am I the one who brought up my not being hired? You injected your own personal self and being black as to your not getting a job-not me.

When I have not been hired, who knows, it may have been because the person was a bigot against Jews, then again maybe thy thought I was too full of energy, opinionated, old, inexperienced, or I just wasn't the right fit?

People on an interview take one look at any of us, and first ask, will we get along with the person we report to? Through no fault of our own, sometimes they can tell we won't. Its not rocket science. Its a gut feeling sometimes.

No I have not gone through life bitter. Lol I have been rejected far more times than you. It comes with age. When one is young, it hurts more. As you age you get used to it then you get to the age where no one will hire you because you are over certain age so you start your own work or you don't work.

Is it fair? Is life fair? Probably not but the difference between us is I am not demanding government get me a job nor do I see myself as being victimized by anti-Semitism-it actually empowers me to push and fight harder and no I don't hate I stand up for myself.

I can get angry at times or but hateful-nah-to hate means I have first had to have loved the person. Me, I don't love many humans. I prefer dogs. Its not bitterness, its just preference.

Now you want to refocus away from me as a "Jew" and instead as a human, its probably more useful if you really are trying to understand my point of view.

If you are not then don't respond to me and keep calling white people bigoted names and refer to yourself as a whiteologist.

Be my guest. Whiteologist. Uh yah.

[GostHacked]

Question, if white principals are meeting a white quota then should a second quota be brought in to balance things out, or should we permit just white quota only?

We should promote skills, intelligence and integrity of the individual no matter their skin colour. Egos seem to get in the way of that really happening.

[H10]

For the same reason that 85% of whites said it was not happening -- perception is not necessarily reality.

Both can't be wrong. When in history have blacks ever perceived widespread discrimination when none existed?

[Rue]

Yes they actually could.Hernanday, logic is not your forte.

[Bryan]

Both can't be wrong.

Sure they can. Three sides to every story.

[H10]

Yes they actually could.Hernanday, logic is not your forte.

No, its impossible.

[Rue]

No its not. To start with your assumption all "blacks' always see the existence let alone same degree, extent, nature and cause of discrimination is illogical.

No two brains perceives in the same manner.

The fact that wide spread discrimination of blacks may have existed and may exist, depends on variables, starting with your subjective and unknown criteria of "widespread" and completely ignores those situations where some blacks may have been discriminated against for being black by other blacks or were discriminated against for being black while other blacks were not.

The scope of this term you use "wide-spread" is indefinite and so necessarily your generalization flowing from it which depends on a definite paradigm from which to be able to assume an absolute value is not possible. That would be illogical. It would not be able to be equated to gt tot he value you assue exists.

I doubt you understood that so let put it in simpler terms, what we think we see or conclude or perceive in regards to any or all degrees of discrimination could be totally false,totally true, or a bit of both.

You assue subjective perception must be true or false. No it can be a bit of both and it is illogical to think all blacks automatically see the sae degree of discrimination or any discrimination. Once again you project and believe since you see something, it must be true.