Hatikvah or "The Hope" - Israel at 67

[jbg]

Yesterday was the 67th anniversary of Israel's independence on the Hebrew calendar. The holiday, known as Yom Hatzma'ot, was celebrated in synagogues tonight. The ceremony was truly moving.

The historical background needs to be understood. The Jews morphed from the skin and bones of people who barely survived the Holocaust. On November 29, 1947 the U.N. voted to partition Israel, giving the Jewish state much less land than they won after the 1958 War. The Jews accepted. The Arabs promised death and war.

Britain abandoned their mandate effective May 14, 1948, after allowing the Arabs to arm themselves to the teeth. The U.S. State Department, as usual, pusillanimous convinced Truman to embargo arms sales. Some inventive merchants were able to get some delivered from WW II surplus, Czechoslovakia, starved for cash by WW II sold much of the rest of them. Israel built an Army and Air Force from scratch.

That day, Israel was invaded by armies from, among other countries, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq and Lebanon. Somehow Israel managed to survive. The Arabs have more or less continually waged war since. Israel has managed not only to survive but to become a leader in hi-tech.

In Israel Arabs can vote. Gay Israelis, whether Arab or Jewish have full rights. Female Israelis, whether Arab or Jewish also have full rights. Below are the lyrics of the Israeli national anthem, in both English and transliterated Hebrew. The video of the Israeli anthem is also posted. Stunningly beautiful.

May Israel continue to thrive, as a Jewish State.

As long as the Jewish spirit is yearning deep in the heart,

With eyes turned toward the East, looking toward Zion,

Then our hope - the two-thousand-year-old hope - will not be lost:

To be a free people in our land,

The land of Zion and Jerusalem.

Kol ode balevav
P'nimah -

Nefesh Yehudi homiyah

Ulfa'atey mizrach kadimah
Ayin l'tzion tzofiyah.

Ode lo avdah tikvatenu
Hatikvah bat shnot alpayim:

L'hiyot am chofshi b'artzenu -
Eretz Tzion v'Yerushalayim.

[GostHacked]

One question and I will leave this thread alone.

Why is your icon of the Canadian and Israeli flag when you are an American?

[jbg]

One question and I will leave this thread alone.

Why is your icon of the Canadian and Israeli flag when you are an American?

Two non-American countries I admire greatly. I consider those two countries among America's greatest and most important allies, and exceptional countries.

Edited April 25, 2015 by jbg

[Rue]

Ghost will you now ask Hudson Jones, Marcus,Jacee, their religions, original nationalities, whether they have dual citizenship?

Why the interest in JBG who openly has stated he is an American Jew and you don't ask the question of them? Why the double standard?

You could say they do not fly flags. Really? Do people on this forum need to fly flags in their avatar or us to know their biases?

You brought the subject up not me. If you think he can't have an allegiance or sympathy for any nation other than the US, how about the rest of the anti Israelis on this forum, or anyone on this forum expressing a political opinion? Why only an interest with JBG.

I do not mind you asking me that question although its personal. I do not hide the fact I am a Jewish and Canadian and support the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state and have supported US foreign policy until Obama was elected and will again once he is out of office. I make no secret of being pro American in bias. I make no secret of being a Marc Garneau liberal who detests Trudea and Mulcair and strongly supports Harper foreign policy.

And so? Is it important you single out these biases? If so why and why with only some?

I find it sad, there are Iranians and Syrians on this forum who do not identify themselves as such or as Muslims. They do not because they fear it will render their positions lacking in credibility.

I have yet to see one Muslim come on this board and speak openly they are Muslim Shiite in favour of Iran or Alawite in favour of Syria, or Muslim Sunni in favour of ISIL.

They won't-but JBG and I will be upfront who we are.

If you can't figure out why that is, its not very difficult to understand why.

I hold myself as first and foremost a Canadian. If I can't support Canada 100% I will leave. I do not couch my support for extreme terrorists because they claim to have the same religion as me.

I am a Canadian. It means I believe and will support Canadian laws. I don't pick and choose the ones I like. I don't celebrate my differences, I welcome openly my willingness to embrace Canadian laws and culture, not the opposite.

I will go so far and say JBG says the same thing about being American if he will excuse me for speaking for him this time.

But both of us are very upfront with our biases. We have never hidden them so move on please now.

As for Bush Chaney he could not be more blatantly open about his biases or Argus. Certain forum members do not mince their words or hide their agenda or bias, others do. You should know the difference by now.

As for you-you have been open who you are and exactly what you stand for, so I am not calling you out personally, just addressing the topic.Since you are open about your biases and who you are, I take your comment far differently then if it came from some other members.

In you case you deserve an answer directly and I gave it. If you think I have ever put Canada second, say it and challenge it. I have no business being Canadian if I can't stand by my country 100% and would deserve being criticized for that.

[GostHacked]

Go away Rue. I asked JBG a pointed question in which he sent me a private message explaining it. And because of it, I don't need to send him a lengthy reply explaining my views on it. I asked, he answered, it's over. I have no need to send him a multi-paragraphed rant on what my views are. Sometimes, you just gotta let it go and accept the answer.

Thanks for stepping in though, it was helpful. /sarcasm.

[jbg]

Go away Rue. I asked JBG a pointed question in which he sent me a private message explaining it. And because of it, I don't need to send him a lengthy reply explaining my views on it. I asked, he answered, it's over. I have no need to send him a multi-paragraphed rant on what my views are. Sometimes, you just gotta let it go and accept the answer.

Thanks for stepping in though, it was helpful. /sarcasm.

I would relish hearing why the question from you. And not in a nasty way.

A friend of mine was surprised I knew how elections were called in Canada and what non-confidence meant. I explained that I am interested in politics in any venue where I can read the raw materials and understand them.

My interest in Israel is for obvious reasons. And Canada since you are our closest ally. Without the peaceful relations of our countries, neither would enjoy the prosperity we do. I only wish the Arabs would learn the same lesson.

[GostHacked]

I would relish hearing why the question from you. And not in a nasty way.

A friend of mine was surprised I knew how elections were called in Canada and what non-confidence meant. I explained that I am interested in politics in any venue where I can read the raw materials and understand them.

My interest in Israel is for obvious reasons. And Canada since you are our closest ally. Without the peaceful relations of our countries, neither would enjoy the prosperity we do. I only wish the Arabs would learn the same lesson.

I told you before in another thread that you knew more about Canada than you led on. Thanks for proving my point. I am not saying it as a bad thing, knowledge is good. I commend you for it.

Some Arabs have a lot of prosperity. Saudi Arabia is a perfect example, however we seem to deal with SOME tyrannical Islamic nations over others.

[GostHacked]

And to your question, it was curiosity.

[jbg]

I told you before in another thread that you knew more about Canada than you led on. Thanks for proving my point. I am not saying it as a bad thing, knowledge is good. I commend you for it.

Some Arabs have a lot of prosperity. Saudi Arabia is a perfect example, however we seem to deal with SOME tyrannical Islamic nations over others.

I just told you about what I know about Canada; how a writ is dropped. Does the GG drop the piece of paper on the floor of One Sussex?

[jacee]

I just told you about what I know about Canada; how a writ is dropped. Does the GG drop the piece of paper on the floor of One Sussex?

Not sure, but I'm sure the people who live there would be surprised.

.

[Moonlight Graham]

Yesterday was the 67th anniversary of Israel's independence on the Hebrew calendar. The holiday, known as Yom Hatzma'ot, was celebrated in synagogues tonight. The ceremony was truly moving.

Sincere congrats, I'm glad the Jews have a home country.

The historical background needs to be understood. The Jews morphed from the skin and bones of people who barely survived the Holocaust. On November 29, 1947 the U.N. voted to partition Israel, giving the Jewish state much less land than they won after the 1958 War. The Jews accepted. The Arabs promised death and war.

Britain abandoned their mandate effective May 14, 1948, after allowing the Arabs to arm themselves to the teeth. The U.S. State Department, as usual, pusillanimous convinced Truman to embargo arms sales. Some inventive merchants were able to get some delivered from WW II surplus, Czechoslovakia, starved for cash by WW II sold much of the rest of them. Israel built an Army and Air Force from scratch.

That day, Israel was invaded by armies from, among other countries, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq and Lebanon. Somehow Israel managed to survive. The Arabs have more or less continually waged war since. Israel has managed not only to survive but to become a leader in hi-tech.

In Israel Arabs can vote. Gay Israelis, whether Arab or Jewish have full rights. Female Israelis, whether Arab or Jewish also have full rights.

That is a pretty warped and biased version of "history", also containing blatant falsehoods.

In Israel Arabs can vote. Gay Israelis, whether Arab or Jewish have full rights.

Not full rights. It's illegal to perform same-sex marriage in Israel.

On November 29, 1947 the U.N. voted to partition Israel, giving the Jewish state much less land than they won after the 1958 War. The Jews accepted. The Arabs promised death and war.

Some numbers:

The situation in Palestine before UN Resolution 181, the 1947 partition plan:

Palestinian population = 70 %

Jewish population = 30%

Palestinian Arab land = 94%

Jewish land = 6%

Resolution 181 called for the redistribution of land as:

Palestinian land = 43%

Jewish land = 57%

Post-1948 war, the Jews of course gained even more land than 181 proposed. And Jews went from 30% of population in the area of Israel/Palestine in 1946 to 82% of the pop. in 1948 post-war, and then by 1950 Jews rose to 88%. And some of these stats come from a Jewish-run history site, so statistical bias against the Jewish situation is unlikely.

While I feel for the Jewish situation post-WWII, their response to their genocide was pretty hypocritical since Israel was created via them (with help from the British Empire, the West, and the UN Security Council) stealing and annexing land from Palestinians and driving them out of their homes/villages at gunpoint (with help from the fear caused by attacking Arab forces etc). Maybe they learned that trick from the Nazis? Not unlike how Canada and the US was created by imperial French and British conquering land from aboriginals, so welcome to the club Israelis! Israel even continues to this day to steal land from Palestinians via settlement expansion. Unfortunately, Palestinians/Arabs respond with violent revenge including inhumanely attacking civilians and expelling/persecuting Jews inside Arab countries, and thus we have the BS conflict we see today.

Sorry for being a party-pooper jbg, but I would have just said "congrats" if you left out the history lesson.

[jbg]

Sincere congrats, I'm glad the Jews have a home country.

That is a pretty warped and biased version of "history", also containing blatant falsehoods.

The historical background needs to be understood. The Jews morphed from the skin and bones of people who barely survived the Holocaust. On November 29, 1947 the U.N. voted to partition Israel, giving the Jewish state much less land than they won after the 1958 War. The Jews accepted. The Arabs promised death and war.

Britain abandoned their mandate effective May 14, 1948, after allowing the Arabs to arm themselves to the teeth. The U.S. State Department, as usual, pusillanimous convinced Truman to embargo arms sales. Some inventive merchants were able to get some delivered from WW II surplus, Czechoslovakia, starved for cash by WW II sold much of the rest of them. Israel built an Army and Air Force from scratch.

That day, Israel was invaded by armies from, among other countries, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq and Lebanon. Somehow Israel managed to survive. The Arabs have more or less continually waged war since. Israel has managed not only to survive but to become a leader in hi-tech.

I don't see any falsehoods there.

Not full rights. It's illegal to perform same-sex marriage in Israel.

In Israel Arabs can vote. Gay Israelis, whether Arab or Jewish have full rights. Female Israelis, whether Arab or Jewish also have full rights.

Don't get me started on marriage. There are some real problems in that area. Reform Rabbis cannot perform weddings in Israel. I just got finished voting on that issue. It's a real sore spot.

Some numbers:

The situation in Palestine before UN Resolution 181, the 1947 partition plan:

Palestinian population = 70 %

Jewish population = 30%

Palestinian Arab land = 94%

Jewish land = 6%

Resolution 181 called for the redistribution of land as:

Palestinian land = 43%

Jewish land = 57%

Post-1948 war, the Jews of course gained even more land than 181 proposed. And Jews went from 30% of population in the area of Israel/Palestine in 1946 to 82% of the pop. in 1948 post-war, and then by 1950 Jews rose to 88%. And some of these stats come from a Jewish-run history site, so statistical bias against the Jewish situation is unlikely.

Even assuming that's accurate, there are some problems with your thesis. Throughout history, there have been dislocations of populations due to war, epidemics, famines, technological or transportation developments. Maybe if the white Gentile population in the Diaspora had a "live and let live" philosophy vis a vis the Jews, the Zionists may have become a footnote in history, just some group of religious or political cranks.

The various iterations of Jew hatred ensured that at some point, the Jews would be "on the road" and in search of a homeland. The most logical homeland was the one in which they historically resided. It is weird that for all other peoples displacements of other peoples through war and takeover of land has been more or less acceptable. Suddenly, when the Jews are involved, the rules change. And again those rules don't apply to other peoples now on a rampage. The world is silent as Kurds and Yatzidis are executed in cold blood by ISIS, for example.

But when Jews acquire land by purchase from absentee landlords they are somehow disentitled to it, and it's labeled apartheid or worse.

While I feel for the Jewish situation post-WWII, their response to their genocide was pretty hypocritical since Israel was created via them (with help from the British Empire, the West, and the UN Security Council) stealing and annexing land from Palestinians and driving them out of their homes/villages at gunpoint (with help from the fear caused by attacking Arab forces etc). Maybe they learned that trick from the Nazis? Not unlike how Canada and the US was created by imperial French and British conquering land from aboriginals, so welcome to the club Israelis! Israel even continues to this day to steal land from Palestinians via settlement expansion. Unfortunately, Palestinians/Arabs respond with violent revenge including inhumanely attacking civilians and expelling/persecuting Jews inside Arab countries, and thus we have the BS conflict we see today.

The British Empire hardly helped. And the West armed the Arabs to the teeth and illegalized the sale of war materiel to the Jews. And again it was the decision of the West, not the Jews, to keep the pot stirring until there was a Holocaust.

Sorry for being a party-pooper jbg, but I would have just said "congrats" if you left out the history lesson.

I've had parties pooped in worse ways. Apology not needed or wanted.

Edited April 26, 2015 by jbg

[Rue]

Moonlight you provide an excellent example of someone who reinvents history to suit your political bias.

The following assertions by you are patently false:

1-that the term Palestinian referred to non Jews prior to Israel's creation;

2-that Britain helped Israel create a Jewish state;

3-that Israel asked for more land then it was mandated.

I will not debate you on them. They have been debated on this forum over and over again. The fact that you would repeat such falsehoods speaks for itself.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Rue

[jbg]

Israel is among the first countries to be offering aid to Nepal with the devastating earthquake. This demonstrates that Israel is still Hatikvah, or the Hope (link, excerpts below):

Netanyahu: Israel will provide all possible help to Nepal

Search and rescue team to depart shortly from Israel to region; will include doctors.

It was agreed that a search and rescue team that would include doctors would depart for Nepal shortly and would land at a location near the disaster area in order to be prepared to arrive in Nepal when possible.

Netanyahu sent his condolences to the people of Nepal from the people of Israel and said Israel would help in any way possible.

[Moonlight Graham]

The following assertions by you are patently false:

1-that the term Palestinian referred to non Jews prior to Israel's creation;

2-that Britain helped Israel create a Jewish state;

3-that Israel asked for more land then it was mandated.

Call them Arabs, call them Palestinians, it doesn't matter to my point. Zionist Jews in Mandate Palestine stole the land that many non-Jews were living on. The land that they bought, that's good. If they annexed it during war that's called stealing. The fact that Zionists think they're the "chosen people" with 2000-year-old claims to an area of land is irrelevant. It's not a valid reason to drive masses of people from their homes and villages. If everyone in the world made ridiculously long historical land claims like that we'd have non-stop warfare until the end of humanity.

I also never claimed "that Israel asked for more land then it was mandated". They just took the land in 1948-49.

[GostHacked]

I have a problem with the point of purchasing land just to create a nation. I don't think that legitimizes the creation of Israel.

If everyone in the world made ridiculously long historical land claims like that we'd have non-stop warfare until the end of humanity.

That's kind of what we are seeing anyways. War has been a constant throughout humanity's existence. Japan and China with island disputes. Aboriginal claims in Canada, Australia. The Middle East. Tribal wars in Africa. Some are outright wars, and some are political and economical.

[Rue]

Nonsense Ghost. You don't come on this forum to complain about the Louisianna purchase, the purchase of Alaska, how California or Texas became part of the US, or any other land purchases in the world. Enough with the selectivity.

[GostHacked]

Nonsense Ghost. You don't come on this forum to complain about the Louisianna purchase, the purchase of Alaska, how California or Texas became part of the US, or any other land purchases in the world. Enough with the selectivity.

We can leave that for another thread as we tend to get a lot of thread drift around here. They are good points, someone should create a thread about it.

[jbg]

Call them Arabs, call them Palestinians, it doesn't matter to my point. Zionist Jews in Mandate Palestine stole the land that many non-Jews were living on. The land that they bought, that's good. If they annexed it during war that's called stealing. The fact that Zionists think they're the "chosen people" with 2000-year-old claims to an area of land is irrelevant. It's not a valid reason to drive masses of people from their homes and villages. If everyone in the world made ridiculously long historical land claims like that we'd have non-stop warfare until the end of humanity.

I also never claimed "that Israel asked for more land then it was mandated". They just took the land in 1948-49.

Why is it stealing if gained in warfare started by the alleged "owners" (really tenants) on the land?

[GostHacked]

Why is it stealing if gained in warfare started by the alleged "owners" (really tenants) on the land?

So when the Jews got kicked out centuries ago, was that stealing because of warfare?

Example, counter-example, and around and around and around and around we go.

[Michael Hardner]

The UN prohibits against annexation like that no ?

[jbg]

So when the Jews got kicked out centuries ago, was that stealing because of warfare?

Example, counter-example, and around and around and around and around we go.

That's actually not a bad way to look at it. What's sauce for the goose... But the Jews have not been deliberately stealing property and then executing the holders. The holders attacked first. The Jews responded. The Jews in Europe did not by and large attack their hosts.

[Big Guy]

Perhaps, but it appears that Israel will attack anyone at will;

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2015/04/blames-israel-school-attacks-gaza-war-150427164558524.html

I believe that the tide of support for Israeli actions is beginning to turn.

[jbg]

Perhaps, but it appears that Israel will attack anyone at will;

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2015/04/blames-israel-school-attacks-gaza-war-150427164558524.html

I believe that the tide of support for Israeli actions is beginning to turn.

Do you believe that Israel is the worst rights abuser in the world?

[Hudson Jones]

Do you believe that Israel is the worst rights abuser in the world?

Israel is one of the worst rights abusers in the world if you consider self-proclaimed democratic nations.

Is this what defending Israel has come down to? Comparing it to the worst human rights abusers and saying: "Well, at least we're not as bad at them!"