Ontario Liberals introduce cap and trade

[Argus]

Ontario Liberal leader Kathleen Wynne said she was horrified to discover that, despite the best efforts of her government, Ontario still has some manufacturing sector remaining

"I thought tripling electricity prices with our green energy program would drive them all out," she said. "Hopefully, this new cap and trade scheme will remove the last of them and make Ontario pure again."

The cap and trade program, an extremely complex and expensive scheme requiring massive numbers of public servants to administer, is similar to the ones in Europe which have led to considerable fraud and profit making by insiders. Ostensibly designed to do something about climate change, they have accomplished basically nothing except to enrich certain individuals.

And drive energy intensive manufacturers out of Europe.

Wynne said that, as she's already hamstrung the mining sector with the Liberals' aboriginal consultation process, Ontario should soon start to return to its pristine state as Ontarions flee to other provinces looking for jobs.

"Ontario doesn't need mining or forestry or manufacturing" she boasted. "There are plenty of jobs in government, and we have the best educated barristas in all of Canada."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/like-a-carbon-tax-but-much-worse/article23812654/

Edited April 11, 2015 by Argus

[Shady]

Best post ever, and entirely true. But she's for the middle class! Just like every lefty will tell you. The same way an abusive husband loves his wife.

[Michael Hardner]

So... is there any serious point being made here that we can comment on ?

Cap & Trade systems were promoted early on by George HW Bush, so that the EPA could regulate emissions to reduce acid rain. It was a successful program.

Ok, are we done here then ?

[Argus]

So... is there any serious point being made here that we can comment on ?

Doubt it. Serious comments are not really your forte.

Cap & Trade systems were promoted early on by George HW Bush, so that the EPA could regulate emissions to reduce acid

rain. It was a successful program.

I don't care who promoted them. They're extremely complicated, extremely expensive, and don't work.

Ok, are we done here then ?

If you don't think my posts are worthy of your time feel free to not waste your time and mine by offering up your inane complaints about them.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Argus

[On Guard for Thee]

Doubt it. Serious comments are not really your forte.

I don't care who promoted them. They're extremely complicated, extremely expensive, and don't work.

If you don't think my posts are worthy of your time feel free to not waste your time and mine by offering up your inane complaints about them.

Dont worry, Shadys got your back.

[TimG]

Cap & Trade systems were promoted early on by George HW Bush, so that the EPA could regulate emissions to reduce acid rain. It was a successful program.

When cap™ for SO2 was brought in there were technologically feasible alternatives available and all the program did was allow the different players to develop their own schedule for installing the new technologies. With CO2 there are no technically feasible alternatives so cap™ can never accomplish its stated goals. That makes it nothing but a make work project for scammers and rent seekers who steal money from the pockets of the middle class which the politicians claim to care about. Edited April 12, 2015 by TimG

[Argus]

When cap™ for SO2 was brought in there were technologically feasible alternatives available and all the program did was allow the different players to develop their own schedule for installing the new technologies. With CO2 there are no technically feasible alternatives so cap™ can never accomplish its stated goals. That makes it nothing but a make work project for scammers and rent seekers who steal money from the pockets of the middle class which the politicians claim to care about.

It will probably also allow them to collect probably billions while swearing up and down that it's not a new tax.

[Queenmandy85]

TimG wrote:

"With CO2 there are no technically feasible alternatives so cap™ can never accomplish its stated goals."

Actually, nuclear power is a much better alternative. Leave the oil in the ground until Saudi Arabia, Russia, and the U.S. run out of oil and then our oil will be worth something.

We have enough nuclear fuel in Western Canada to provide lots of energy until fusion comes on line.

[Argus]

TimG wrote:

"With CO2 there are no technically feasible alternatives so cap™ can never accomplish its stated goals."

Actually, nuclear power is a much better alternative. Leave the oil in the ground until Saudi Arabia, Russia, and the U.S. run out of oil and then our oil will be worth something.

We have enough nuclear fuel in Western Canada to provide lots of energy until fusion comes on line.

Sure, except given the unreliability of human beings and their constructs, do you really want more of these ticking time bombs parked around the country?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying nuclear power plants can't be made safe. I'm saying humans are too stupid to make them safe. Even the Japanese, who you would have expected to be pretty damned efficient, were clowns when it came to operating nuclear power plants.

[cybercoma]

So... is there any serious point being made here that we can comment on ?

Cap & Trade systems were promoted early on by George HW Bush, so that the EPA could regulate emissions to reduce acid rain. It was a successful program.

Ok, are we done here then ?

It was also proposed by Harper himself, y'know, before he was actually able to implement it.

[Ash74]

I could care less who introduces it. Right now we in Ontario are paying way too much for hydro and the drain it actually cause hurts the poor and middle class.

The producers will just raise the price of everything hurting the people more.

Combined with the history of the Ontario Liberal incompetence that I am sure we will be reading about a year from now with the money and implementation that will be a mess.

[overthere]

Is Ontario going to pay down that lil ol' $300 billion debt with this money?

[Ash74]

The good news is that there will be a backlash.

Just in time for the Federal Election the new carbon tax will be hitting people so the rage vote will keep JT out of the Prime Ministers chair.

Harper will likely keep a majority.

Ontario as a rule does not like the same parties running the Federal Government and the Provincial one.

When all the Harper bashers are crying let u remember this moment

[TimG]

A taste of the unintended side effects of policies that try to make the impossible happen:

Thousands of hectares of agricultural land in British Columbia are being planted with trees so that companies can gain credits for carbon sequestration, says NDP agricultural critic Lana Popham.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/bc-ndp-alarmed-over-farmland-lost-to-tree-planting-for-carbon-credits/article23893267/

[jacee]

A taste of the unintended side effects of policies that try to make the impossible happen:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/bc-ndp-alarmed-over-farmland-lost-to-tree-planting-for-carbon-credits/article23893267/

"Companies seeking carbon offsets prefer open farmland to forests that have been logged because the planting is easier. (Ben Nelms/Bloomberg)"

Only because they're to lazy to replant where they logged.

I expect that's about to change.

.

Edited April 13, 2015 by jacee

[Ash74]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/federal-liberals-poised-to-make-great-election-gains-in-ontario-poll-finds/article23892369/

Right now the two parties are pretty close in Ontario, The Liberals have a slight lead but after the carbon taxes kick in this should just about make Wynne the Conservatives Best campaign manager.

[Argus]

Cap and trade, as I said, is mostly a dishonest tax grab. If they actually wanted to do anything about emissions they'd do what BC did, but that would be revenue neutral, and that's not what they want.

Ontarians would do well to question why their Premier has chosen to join a costly and complex cap-and-trade system instead of opting for a simpler B.C.-style carbon tax. A straightforward $30 a ton tax, which is offset by lower personal income taxes and hence is revenue neutral, shifts the tax base in B.C. from income to carbon fuels. It’s precisely the direction tax policy must go if we’re to stabilize the already dangerous levels of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere.

Why didn’t Ontario choose that route? The answer is simple – the two alternatives serve different purposes. Carbon taxes work to reduce emissions while being fiscally neutral at the same time. Cap-and-trade schemes, in contrast, are designed to foster a perception that emissions are going lower without actually doing much environmental good. At the end of the day, the main beneficiary is the provincial treasury. For a premier looking to paint a new source of revenue in greenwash, it’s a perfect choice.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/industry-news/energy-and-resources/why-cap-and-trade-schemes-are-little-more-than-a-cash-grab/article23894822/

[Ash74]

Cap and trade, as I said, is mostly a dishonest tax grab. If they actually wanted to do anything about emissions they'd do what BC did, but that would be revenue neutral, and that's not what they want.

Ontarians would do well to question why their Premier has chosen to join a costly and complex cap-and-trade system instead of opting for a simpler B.C.-style carbon tax. A straightforward $30 a ton tax, which is offset by lower personal income taxes and hence is revenue neutral, shifts the tax base in B.C. from income to carbon fuels. It’s precisely the direction tax policy must go if we’re to stabilize the already dangerous levels of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere.

Why didn’t Ontario choose that route? The answer is simple – the two alternatives serve different purposes. Carbon taxes work to reduce emissions while being fiscally neutral at the same time. Cap-and-trade schemes, in contrast, are designed to foster a perception that emissions are going lower without actually doing much environmental good. At the end of the day, the main beneficiary is the provincial treasury. For a premier looking to paint a new source of revenue in greenwash, it’s a perfect choice.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/industry-news/energy-and-resources/why-cap-and-trade-schemes-are-little-more-than-a-cash-grab/article23894822/

Your right.

The Ontario spending spree has left the province in deep debt and the Liberals who at best are not very friendly with the truth do not want to say the word tax and cannot afford not to impose one. Unless they actually started controlling themselves but that is crazy talk.

Wynne and her bunch need a new tax and the people of this province have heard the term revenue neutral before with the HST. That and it was going to create 500,000 jobs and everybody was going to have a jet pack.