Finland To Scrap Subjects in Education

[socialist]

“Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it”.

George Santayana

Knowing why we teach our children about these things are a good reason not too repeat past mistakes.

Do our children know why the environment is polluted?

Why we teach diversity after the horrors of prejudice?

I cannot understand why a person that claims to be a teacher would think it is not important to know how we got here, Who showed us a better way and why we curse the monsters and mistakes of the past.

The closed minded comments you make is why we all do not believe a person like you could be trusted to teach students

I am shaped by the many Professional Development conferences I have attended over the years. Conferences given by educators. You haven;t had any ProD so you don't understand the modern school system. I find it hard debating with relics.

[Ash74]

I am shaped by the many Professional Development conferences I have attended over the years. Conferences given by educators. You haven;t had any ProD so you don't understand the modern school system. I find it hard debating with relics.

You sir are a hypocrite.

You talk about tolerance and spew intolerance. Here we are on a public forum and instead of speaking your opinion on why you feel history is no longer needed you brag about your education (at least what you claim) and state n opinion than insult those who disagree.

Are we to forget Hitler,Stalin,Lincoln,Macdonald,Churchill,Ceaser,Columbus.............

That is educating students?

I agree that history is more than dates and the battle of Gettysburg is more important to know what it meant as opposed to when it happened but why it happened and what it meant is also important.

[socialist]

You sir are a hypocrite.

You talk about tolerance and spew intolerance. Here we are on a public forum and instead of speaking your opinion on why you feel history is no longer needed you brag about your education (at least what you claim) and state n opinion than insult those who disagree.

Are we to forget Hitler,Stalin,Lincoln,Macdonald,Churchill,Ceaser,Columbus.............

That is educating students?

I agree that history is more than dates and the battle of Gettysburg is more important to know what it meant as opposed to when it happened but why it happened and what it meant is also important.

I'm tired of trying to figure out what you are trying to say. SImply put, on educational topics, you are grossly misinformed. I've wasted to much time responding to your nonsense.

[Michael Hardner]

Relics vs hypocrites... you are still talking to each other. Please don't make it personal, and don't announce to everyone that your discussion is a waste of time. Keep the conversation going, thank you.

[AngusThermopyle]

I am shaped by the many Professional Development conferences I have attended over the years.

If we are to believe you when you say this is your first year of teaching how could you have attended many Professional development conferences over the years? Riddle me that.

[Mighty AC]

It is a mistake to add the two because the second (16%) is already included in the first (64%). Did you attend public school?

No, respondents could not choose both important and most important for a given reason for choosing to home school.

[carepov]

I am an advocate of the public school system and feel that public schooling is vastly superior to homeschooling. People have to remember that public school is much more than just academics. Kids interact with all kinds of different kids, learning diversity and to tolerate differences. Kids in public schools learn to accept all others as equals.

I am also an advocate for the public school system and - for most families - (probably well over 90%) public schooling is superior to homeschooling. For some families homeshcooling is vastly superior to public schools.

People have to remember that public school is much more than just academics. Kids interact with all kinds of different kids, learning diversity and to tolerate differences. Kids in public schools learn to accept all others as equals.

Homeschooling isn't all bad. In fact we I was told by a university math professor, that academically, many homeschool kids who enter university are better prepared. But I am also quite sure that they are socially awkward. If you want your kids to have well rounded social/life schools, then public schools are the best option. If your focus is strictly academic, then yes, homeschooling can be better.

But we all know academics aren't the be all to end all in the 21st century.

There is a widespread misconception about homeschoolers being socially awkward or less socialized than non-homeschoolers. I don't think so, in fact I believe that the opposite is true, here's why:

-I have searched but seen to data/studies to support the claim that homeschoolers are more socially awkward (if you or anyone has links please share)

-As per my above link, based on a survey of 7,300 adults that were homeschooled:

"homeschooling produces successful adults who are actively involved in their communities and who continue to value education for themselves and their children"

https://www.hslda.org/research/ray2003/HomeschoolingGrowsUp.pdf

-Don't forget, there are plenty of socially awkward people coming out of public schools

-It is a misconception/myth that homeschoolers are isolated. Are kids isolated during summer holidays? Do young adults all of a sudden become isolated once they graduate?

-Public school kids have more interactions with kids their own age. They do learn social skills but also likely develop negative social behaviours.

-On average, homeschoolers have more interactions with kids and adults of different ages and live more in "the real world" as opposed to the "school bubble".

-Homeschoolers have more time to discover themselves as individuals and therefore are self-confident/non-conformist, pre-requisites for creativity and social skills.

[carepov]

No, respondents could not choose both important and most important for a given reason for choosing to home school.

So, by your logic, a "desire to provide religious instuction" is an important factor in deciding to homeschool in 64+16= 80 % of parents. Therefore,

"A concern about environment at other schools" is an important factor for 91+25=116 % of parents.

[overthere]

^^^^One of the main purposes of public schools is socialization, learning how to effectively and productively work/grow in group situations. It is an absolutely essential life skill that serves every person in their work and social lives- for a lifetime.

How do you think homeschoolers obtain these skills?

+question was for carepov+

Edited March 26, 2015 by overthere

[carepov]

^^^^One of the main purposes of public schools is socialization, learning how to effectively and productively work/grow in group situations. It is an absolutely essential life skill that serves every person in their work and social lives- for a lifetime.

How do you think homeschoolers obtain these skills?

+question was for carepov+

They play, work and grow in group situations.

Human being are social animals that want to socialize. It is natural. You simply enable socialization, there is no need to force it. How did homo sapiens socialize for 199,800 years before public schools became widespread?

[overthere]

They play, work and grow in group situations.

Human being are social animals that want to socialize. It is natural. You simply enable socialization, there is no need to force it. How did homo sapiens socialize for 199,800 years before public schools became widespread?

Through extended families and a large community. Though in reality our species lived in ignorance of anything beyond the horizon until very recently. I don't think the model of the Dark Ages is one we wish to emulate, nor does it serve any child to raise them in ignorance of anything but the narrow views espoused in many homeschool situations. I understand the reasons of many homeschoolers, but do not agree that any child deserves that level of insulation. Diversity of that socialization is a serious survival skill that you owe to your child, not a narrow worldview that 'protects' them.

Do homeschoolers get much beyond their house and church?. Not much diversity there.

[Mighty AC]

So, by your logic, a "desire to provide religious instuction" is an important factor in deciding to homeschool in 64+16= 80 % of parents. Therefore,

"A concern about environment at other schools" is an important factor for 91+25=116 % of parents.

Yes, 11.6 out of 10 American home schoolers are concerned about the public school environment. My mistake and the result of laziness. I had this discussion, elsewhere, a couple of years ago and I thought the reference I used here cited the same study I had used previously.

The survey response I linked to here showed that 64% of parents said they chose to home school for religious reasons with 16% claiming religion to be the most important reason. The blogger noted that her home schooling parents would not have listed religion as their reason to home school despite it being true. She suggested a social study would have to be done to get more accurate responses.

The 1991 book "Home Schooling: Political, Historical, and Pedagogical Perspectives" ( https://stacks.stanford.edu/file/druid:tw648nr5460/MA%20THESIS%2020110530-final%20Wolochow.pdf page 25) found that 89 - 90% of those home schooled in the US were conservative Christians, and the documentary Jesus Camp stated that 75% were evangelicals in 2006.

Home schooled children generally do outperform public school students on standardized tests. Some argue the home schoolers that actually take the tests are not representative of the population as whole, but there is also a legitimate benefit to one on one education. My problem with it is that many chose the home route in an attempt to impart knowledge that does not jive with reality. I think this thesis conclusion adequately sums up my thoughts on home schooling.

This thesis concludes that conservative Christian homeschooling, as represented by

A Beka textbooks, does not adequately prepare its students to become adult citizens of a

pluralistic, liberal democracy, such as the United States. This method of education

discourages exposure to and rational engagement with diversity, it often teaches “facts”

that run contrary to all reasonable evidence, it presents every subject through the lens of a

“Biblical” worldview, and it isolates students in a strictly homogeneous environment

where they lack the autonomy to reflect critically on their upbringing or the beliefs

instilled in them by their parents. This type of conservative Christian homeschooling is

detrimental to the civic goal of creating good citizens because it fails to prepare its students

for engagement in a liberal, pluralistic democracy, which demands a free expression of

ideas and rational, critical reflection on those ideas. After examining what it means for a

state to be a liberal, pluralistic democracy and what good citizenship means in such a state,

it is clear that conservative Christian homeschooling is not achieving appropriate

citizenship goals. https://stacks.stanford.edu/file/druid:tw648nr5460/MA%20THESIS%2020110530-final%20Wolochow.pdf

[carepov]

Through extended families and a large community. Though in reality our species lived in ignorance of anything beyond the horizon until very recently. I don't think the model of the Dark Ages is one we wish to emulate, nor does it serve any child to raise them in ignorance of anything but the narrow views espoused in many homeschool situations. I understand the reasons of many homeschoolers, but do not agree that any child deserves that level of insulation. Diversity of that socialization is a serious survival skill that you owe to your child, not a narrow worldview that 'protects' them.

Do homeschoolers get much beyond their house and church?. Not much diversity there.

You are espousing the same myth. Homeschoolers are not isolated. This is supported by the fact that, homeschooled adults are more involved in the community, they out-vote, out-protest and frankly out-socialize the general population.

On average, homeschoolers have MORE socialization diversity than school kids that tend to stick with a clique made up of kids their own age. Never mind all the kids in public schools that do not fit the mould and become loners.

Here is another article supporting my views:

http://www.todaysparent.com/kids/school-age/the-new-home-schooling/

[carepov]

Yes, 11.6 out of 10 American home schoolers are concerned about the public school environment. My mistake and the result of laziness. I had this discussion, elsewhere, a couple of years ago and I thought the reference I used here cited the same study I had used previously.

The survey response I linked to here showed that 64% of parents said they chose to home school for religious reasons with 16% claiming religion to be the most important reason. The blogger noted that her home schooling parents would not have listed religion as their reason to home school despite it being true. She suggested a social study would have to be done to get more accurate responses.

The 1991 book "Home Schooling: Political, Historical, and Pedagogical Perspectives" ( https://stacks.stanford.edu/file/druid:tw648nr5460/MA%20THESIS%2020110530-final%20Wolochow.pdf page 25) found that 89 - 90% of those home schooled in the US were conservative Christians, and the documentary Jesus Camp stated that 75% were evangelicals in 2006.

Home schooled children generally do outperform public school students on standardized tests. Some argue the home schoolers that actually take the tests are not representative of the population as whole, but there is also a legitimate benefit to one on one education. My problem with it is that many chose the home route in an attempt to impart knowledge that does not jive with reality. I think this thesis conclusion adequately sums up my thoughts on home schooling.

This thesis concludes that conservative Christian homeschooling, as represented by

A Beka textbooks, does not adequately prepare its students to become adult citizens of a

pluralistic, liberal democracy, such as the United States. This method of education

discourages exposure to and rational engagement with diversity, it often teaches “facts”

that run contrary to all reasonable evidence, it presents every subject through the lens of a

“Biblical” worldview, and it isolates students in a strictly homogeneous environment

where they lack the autonomy to reflect critically on their upbringing or the beliefs

instilled in them by their parents. This type of conservative Christian homeschooling is

detrimental to the civic goal of creating good citizens because it fails to prepare its students

for engagement in a liberal, pluralistic democracy, which demands a free expression of

ideas and rational, critical reflection on those ideas. After examining what it means for a

state to be a liberal, pluralistic democracy and what good citizenship means in such a state,

it is clear that conservative Christian homeschooling is not achieving appropriate

citizenship goals. https://stacks.stanford.edu/file/druid:tw648nr5460/MA%20THESIS%2020110530-final%20Wolochow.pdf

I agree with you and the author that this type of education (fundamental, biblically literalist, factually wrong) is detrimental.

IMO the suggestion that 75-90% of US homeschoolers follow this type of education is ludicrous. At most, I would expect that the 16 % of parents in the US that choose homeschooling primarily for religious reasons would be such extremists.

[Mighty AC]

I agree with you and the author that this type of education (fundamental, biblically literalist, factually wrong) is detrimental.

IMO the suggestion that 75-90% of US homeschoolers follow this type of education is ludicrous. At most, I would expect that the 16 % of parents in the US that choose homeschooling primarily for religious reasons would be such extremists.

If such a large percentage are evangelical, then I expect you are wrong. I think the reason that US home schoolers are predominantly evangelicals is because their young earth, creationist, anti-evolution world view does not gel with reality and the local public school curriculum doesn't match their crazy beliefs. Do you think evangelical parents actually teach honest, accurate science and history lessons?

[bush_cheney2004]

Actually, many US home schoolers abandon public education for many of the same reasons as parents fleeing to private and charter schools for safety, security, academic rigor, testing overkill, tenured teachers, unions, school board edicts, etc. Evangelicals are just a small part of the home school demographic.

It is comical to read such expert Canadian opinions about U.S. home schooling from the same people who are quick to condemn public education in the U.S. at the same time.

[carepov]

If such a large percentage are evangelical, then I expect you are wrong. I think the reason that US home schoolers are predominantly evangelicals is because their young earth, creationist, anti-evolution world view does not gel with reality and the local public school curriculum doesn't match their crazy beliefs. Do you think evangelical parents actually teach honest, accurate science and history lessons?

If you are right that these simple-minded people are homeschooling, how do you explain the fact that homeschoolers significantly outperform the general population academically.

Also working against your thesis is the fact that homschooling parents tend to be more educated than parents that choose public schools.

[carepov]

Do you think evangelical parents actually teach honest, accurate science and history lessons?

Yes, for sure some do:

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/03/old-earth-young-minds-evangelical-homeschoolers-embrace-evolution/273844/

IMO, the vast majority do.

[Mighty AC]

If you are right that these simple-minded people are homeschooling, how do you explain the fact that homeschoolers significantly outperform the general population academically.

Also working against your thesis is the fact that homschooling parents tend to be more educated than parents that choose public schools.

Who said simple minded? Evangelicals hold some stupid, delusional beliefs but that doesn't mean they are unintelligent. They just have a disconnect from reality in one area that must require a great deal of compartmentalization.

One on one, completely differentiated, education that proceeds at one student's pace with the flexibility to master concepts prior to moving on is extremely beneficial. It is an environment that is as completely student centred as is possible. The problem is that people are choosing this route largely to lock children into a worldview not shared by the public. Not all children are home schooled for crazy religious reasons, but most are.

[carepov]

Who said simple minded? Evangelicals hold some stupid, delusional beliefs but that doesn't mean they are unintelligent. They just have a disconnect from reality in one area that must require a great deal of compartmentalization.

I did, and I am surprised that you would disagree that creationists are simple-minded. The more education one has the less likely one is to be creationist. On average homeschoolers have more education than public schoolers.

One on one, completely differentiated, education that proceeds at one student's pace with the flexibility to master concepts prior to moving on is extremely beneficial. It is an environment that is as completely student centred as is possible.

Agreed.

The problem is that people are choosing this route largely to lock children into a worldview not shared by the public. Not all children are home schooled for crazy religious reasons, but most are.

Wrong. Only 16 % of US homeschooling parents surveyed in 2011-2012 cited religious reasons as their main reason for homeschooling. Of these there are certainly some crazies but not all. These numbers are going down over time and I am sure the percentage of homeschooling crazies in Canada is much lower yet.

Edited March 26, 2015 by carepov

[guyser]

If you are right that these simple-minded people are homeschooling, how do you explain the fact that homeschoolers significantly outperform the general population academically.

They dont.

Testing is strictly volunteer based.

The wealthy parents doing the teaching provide better access to tools for the kids, and are far more likely to want thier kids tested as point of pride. Guess how they tested? The kids being tested took the test home to complete.

Whoops...

The ones who suck at it, religious idiots and the like know there kid sucks and wont get it tested.

Public school gets 'em all tested, the ressults are more concrete.

Also working against your thesis is the fact that homschooling parents tend to be more educated than parents that choose public schools.

Yea....nope

Studies show that homers moms had college degrees in he 65% range vs 54% , so not much diff....but wait, the p[ublic kids moms had Graduate degrees at three times the rate of homers.

http://www.parentingscience.com/homeschooling-outcomes.html

[socialist]

They dont.

Testing is strictly volunteer based.

The wealthy parents doing the teaching provide better access to tools for the kids, and are far more likely to want thier kids tested as point of pride. Guess how they tested? The kids being tested took the test home to complete.

Whoops...

The ones who suck at it, religious idiots and the like know there kid sucks and wont get it tested.

Public school gets 'em all tested, the ressults are more concrete.

Yea....nope

Studies show that homers moms had college degrees in he 65% range vs 54% , so not much diff....but wait, the p[ublic kids moms had Graduate degrees at three times the rate of homers.

http://www.parentingscience.com/homeschooling-outcomes.html

Hey bud, "thier" is actually spelled "their". "Ressults" only has one s. Who are the idiots again?

[carepov]

They dont.

Testing is strictly volunteer based.

The wealthy parents doing the teaching provide better access to tools for the kids, and are far more likely to want thier kids tested as point of pride. Guess how they tested? The kids being tested took the test home to complete.

Whoops...

The ones who suck at it, religious idiots and the like know there kid sucks and wont get it tested.

Public school gets 'em all tested, the ressults are more concrete.

Yea....nope

Studies show that homers moms had college degrees in he 65% range vs 54% , so not much diff....but wait, the p[ublic kids moms had Graduate degrees at three times the rate of homers.

http://www.parentingscience.com/homeschooling-outcomes.html

A sample size of 37. Really? So four mom's had graduate degrees compared to eleven, and this is supposed to be significant? Try again.

What is significant is that a greater percentage of homeshcoolers attend university and top universities are recruiting homeshcoolers

[Mighty AC]

And the majority of US homeschoolers are evangelicals, a group that tends to harbour some pretty laughable beliefs. Remember you started off by challenging that aspect of my response to the fake parody poster?

To address your shift in theme though, even with more representative test results I expect home schooled kids will do well on the standards. The kids get one on one instruction and families that home school are more affluent than the general population. Education results almost always mirror socioeconomic status.

[carepov]

And the majority of US homeschoolers are evangelicals, a group that tends to harbour some pretty laughable beliefs. Remember you started off by challenging that aspect of my response to the fake parody poster?

There are plenty of crazies in the US and a few in Canada and some do homeschool. Overall the 2.2 million North American homeschoolers are very diverse. Yes I did challenge the way that you stereotyped all homeschoolers with those crazy beliefs. It is similar to people stereotyping Muslims as misogynist, and supporting of terrorism and Sharia Law.

To address your shift in theme though, even with more representative test results I expect home schooled kids will do well on the standards. The kids get one on one instruction and families that home school are more affluent than the general population. Education results almost always mirror socioeconomic status.

Yes, this seems obvious. I wonder if Guyser2 will recognize his earlier misjudgements?