Should Jewish Students be Excluded from Student-Run Board Based on Rel

[jbg]

In U.C.L.A. Debate Over Jewish Student, Echoes on Campus of Old Biases

Rachel Beyda, a second-year economics major who wants to be a lawyer someday, sought admission to UCLA Student Council's Judicial Board. She was initially excluded because she is Jewish. After the intervention of a faculty adviser this USAC reversed itself and approved her membership. Link in headline, excerpts below:

LOS ANGELES — It seemed like routine business for the student council at the University of California, Los Angeles: confirming the nomination of Rachel Beyda, a second-year economics major who wants to be a lawyer someday, to the council’s Judicial Board.

Until it came time for questions.

“Given that you are a Jewish student and very active in the Jewish community,” Fabienne Roth, a member of the Undergraduate Students Association Council, began, looking at Ms. Beyda at the other end of the room, “how do you see yourself being able to maintain an unbiased view?”

For the next 40 minutes, after Ms. Beyda was dispatched from the room, the council tangled in a debate about whether her faith and affiliation with Jewish organizations, including her sorority and Hillel, a popular student group, meant she would be biased in dealing with sensitive governance questions that come before the board, which is the campus equivalent of the Supreme Court.

The discussion, recorded in written minutes and captured on video, seemed to echo the kind of questions, prejudices and tropes — particularly about divided loyalties — that have plagued Jews across the globe for centuries, students and Jewish leaders said.

The council, in a meeting that took place on Feb. 10, voted first to reject Ms. Beyda’s nomination, with four members against her. Then, at the prodding of a faculty adviser there who pointed out that belonging to Jewish organizations was not a conflict of interest, the students revisited the question and unanimously put her on the board.

This incident brings to the surface anti-Jewish views that are usually dressed up as dislike for the policies of the State of Israel, or appeals for racial and religious "diversity" and alleged Jewish "over-representation" in various schools, the media and other professions. This disgusting incident provides an opportunity to discuss the real hidden agenda that still plagues society; Jew hatred.

The difference between racism against Jews and against other minorities is that Jews, in general, conform to law and social custom. Thus, they are not the victim of well-publicized police violence. That does not negate the existence of discrimination.

[The_Squid]

It would be against the law to discriminate like this in Canada.... and rightfully so.

A Human Rights Tribunal would slap this student association right quick...

Edited March 9, 2015 by The_Squid

[Shady]

I wonder if they'd ever ask the same thing of a Muslim student? This is completely abhorrent, and another example of the resurgence of anti-semetism not only in Europe, but even North America.

[Argus]

I honestly have never understood the bias against Jews. As in the OP statement, they obey the law, work hard, and as long as they mind their own business about their religious beliefs. What's the problem? Mind you, only about 10% of Jews in North American are Orthodox, I believe, and I think their somewhat more hard core beliefs might set people's teeth on edge more in other places. And if there were a lot of those Haradim around I'd be an anti-Semite myself, simply based on their behaviour.

The worst stereotype about Jews in common culture (at least in North American) is they're cheap. I've heard it from those who have had economic dealings with Jews. But they're far from unique in that. Russel Peters has a long running theme about how cheap Indians are, Asians certainly like to drive a hard bargain, and in my experience, the Arabs I've known are all very cheap. I can't say that's a particularly flattering stereotype, but hardly cause for hatred.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Argus

[Michael Hardner]

And if there were a lot of those Haradim around I'd be an anti-Semite myself, simply based on their behaviour.

You don't have to worry about whether you'd be one.

Any thread that freely discusses ethnic stereotypes as though they're valid is an embarrassment to the board IMO.

[Argus]

You don't have to worry about whether you'd be one.

Any thread that freely discusses ethnic stereotypes as though they're valid is an embarrassment to the board IMO.

Why? People talk about ethnic stereotypes in common, everyday conversations all across this country every day of the year. All of us, except you extra special types who are up there on that high pedestal above the rest of us, have at least some stereotypical views of a wide variety of groups. Comedians trade on those stereotypes all the time, be they Jewish or Indian or whatever.

[On Guard for Thee]

Why? People talk about ethnic stereotypes in common, everyday conversations all across this country every day of the year. All of us, except you extra special types who are up there on that high pedestal above the rest of us, have at least some stereotypical views of a wide variety of groups. Comedians trade on those stereotypes all the time, be they Jewish or Indian or whatever.

He is on no pedestal, especially n this topic he is on the same level ground as I am. If you actually read (or listen) between the lines of smart comedians such as Peters, you might just find that he is using stereotypes to poke fun at the people that maintain them.

[Argus]

He is on no pedestal, especially n this topic he is on the same level ground as I am. If you actually read (or listen) between the lines of smart comedians such as Peters, you might just find that he is using stereotypes to poke fun at the people that maintain them.

I have listened, and no, he isn't. He's poking fun at Indians. In fact, a lot of his Schick is poking fun at a variety of ethnic and racial groups. He does it in a friendly fashion, mind you, without condemnation.

You're up on that pedestal with him, expecting robot-like behaviour from human beings at all times and looking askance at those who show anything else. All people have their foibles, and all cultures have different values. It's silly to pretend they don't exist.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Argus

[On Guard for Thee]

I have listened, and no, he isn't. He's poking fun at Indians. In fact, a lot of his Schick is poking fun at a variety of ethnic and racial groups. He does it in a friendly fashion, mind you, without condemnation.

You're up on that pedestal with him, expecting robot-like behaviour from human beings at all times and sneering at those who show anything else. All people have their foibles, and all cultures have different values. It's silly to pretend they don't exist.

I guess your sense off humour is not nuanced enough to actually get what Peters is doing. It is actually much funnier when you do. The robot like behaviour you speak of I find comes from those who seem to never get beyond the old worn Archie type jokes.

[Wilber]

There is always some truth to sterotypes, that is why they are steriotypes. Cultures differ and they all have idosyncracies that are humorous to others and even to themselves. Every culture has enough illogical behaviour to supply comedians forever. The astounding thing about this UCLA decision is the notion that being Jewish somehow prevents a person from acting in a professional manner. Mind boggling. And these are university students?

[Rue]

Before Michael Hardner pulls the politically correct label on Argus let's slow down a bit. Its easy to call someone a bigot. Real easy. Its really easy to play the indignant liberal tolerant of all and mortified if someone says he does not like certain characteristics. Too easy. It censors and shuts down discussion.

Slow down.

Stereotyping is not always negative. Our brains use it as a common method to create organization in what would otherwise be a world of incomprehensible never ending images.

Let's go back to what a stereotype is in defintiion and I use the Oxford dictionary;

It can mean:

1. a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing;

2.a person or thing that conforms to a widely held but oversimplified image of the class or type to which they belong;

3.a relief printing plate cast in a mould made from composed type or an original plate.

I shall assume we are not speaking of the third but the other 2.

We all know Stereotypes (or "characterizations") are generalizations or assumptions that people make about something.

Often its an assumption as to the characteristics, behaviour, beliefs of ALL members of a group.

In all social sciences, stereotypes can be used. They are not necessarily negative. They can be a series of generalizations to help understand certain patterns of behaviour. They can be used to explain differences in culture, ethnicity, gender related phenomena.

To pull the Michael H. high almighty card against Argus was a crock.

So Argus stated he does not like certain ultra orthodox Haradim.

What is he guilty of? Being truthful? Please give me a break. This Jew can handle it thank you.

Let the first person to call him a bigot for saying what he did deny they don't have biases against certain groups of people.

I can't stand them either.

Does it make me a bigot. I can't stand them but it doesn't mean I would do anything hateful to them. Does it make me a bigot? Not until you can show I did something hateful to them or condone doing something hateful to them. I do not. I respect their right to be what they are but I can't stand them.

In fact what Michael H did is to stereotype Argus as a bigot simply because he was being blunt and honest about his bias.

We all have them. Some of us admit them, others play holier than thou. I can deal with someone who tells me what he does not like about me. That I can deal with-him being honest. Show me someone who plays holier then thou and claims he is above that-that to me is the real bigot because he won't say what he really thinks then in the name of tolerance does this politically correct bullshit dance like the idiots at the university JBG brought up.

Just look on this board at the no. of times negative generalizations have been hurled at Jews, Zionists, Israelis interchangeably. Not a peep. But if I as a Jew say I believe I have the right to a state on this forum, look out. I hate Palestinians. I hate Muslims. I blame Palestinians, on and on the allegations flow.

Sometimes we see it about women, gays, Christians, Muslims. other identified groups.

It gets a pass when the person spewing it says well he's only criticizing Zionism.

Yah. I have had my stomach full of the two faced bigots couching their bigoted references and then when they were exposed red handed claim they are victims.

Argus is not one of those people Michael H. He may be politically inappropriate to you but he's honest. Doesn't make him hateful or a bigot or even irrational.

Its it unfair to define societies for example as high and low context which social sciences does?

For God's sakes all of psychology and psychiatry, anthropology, could not function without starting off with generalized patterns of observation or stereotypes.

Get real and save the holier then thou lectures, those of you who want to get all snot faced and argue with Rusell Peters does is not stereotping. People laugh because its a nervous laugh of acknowledgment that they think what he says is true. If they did not they would not laugh.

Jerry Seinfeld made a fortune playing on Jewish neurotic stereotypes in his sit com. Din't make him a bigot.

All In The Family stereotyped blacks, whites, Latinos in the name of enlightened humour. Now watch it back.

Go on play back Jefferson and Archie and Jimmy Walker yelling Dynomite. Go on play back the little black Sambo saying " Watcha tawkin about Willis".

Nobnody feed me Liberal bs about what is appropriate. Our entire culture is made up of acceptable biases of the day.

Liberal politically appropriate individuals in the name of tolerance are the biggest of the bigots.

Thanks I will defend Argus. I hate everyone and I don't mince words. The same Argus who can not stand certain behaviours is more of an ally to me as Jew then any high almighty politically correct liberal. He says it like he feels and he uses the same standard on himself.

All you have to do is read what he says.

Stuck up high almighty people. They make me want to vomit. Ooops that was bigoted.

[Big Guy]

I think it would depend on the "other Jewish organizations" to which she belongs.

The panel is vetting prospects to see if there are any extremist views present which would influence her impartiality.

A black applying who belongs or belonged to the Black Panthers (or other black supremacist organization) or a white male who belonged to the Klan (or other white supremacist organization) or a Jewish lady who belonged to the JDL (or other Jewish supremacist organizations) should be rejected.

It should not depend on what is outside but what is inside that counts.

[jbg]

I honestly have never understood the bias against Jews. As in the OP statement, they obey the law, work hard, and as long as they mind their own business about their religious beliefs. What's the problem? Mind you, only about 10% of Jews in North American are Orthodox, I believe, and I think their somewhat more hard core beliefs might set people's teeth on edge more in other places. And if there were a lot of those Haradim around I'd be an anti-Semite myself, simply based on their behaviour.

The worst stereotype about Jews in common culture (at least in North American) is they're cheap. I've heard it from those who have had economic dealings with Jews. But they're far from unique in that. Russel Peters has a long running theme about how cheap Indians are, Asians certainly like to drive a hard bargain, and in my experience, the Arabs I've known are all very cheap. I can't say that's a particularly flattering stereotype, but hardly cause for hatred.

I agree, we have an expression that "Jews don't like to pay full price." And I of course am Jewish.

You don't have to worry about whether you'd be one.

Any thread that freely discusses ethnic stereotypes as though they're valid is an embarrassment to the board IMO.

Haradim are a real problem. A not funny situation occurred in nearby Rockland. One Haradi went to worship at a different shul than he was "supposed" to. They tried to burn him alive as he slept.

[guyser]

No .

[TimG]

A black applying who belongs or belonged to the Black Panthers (or other black supremacist organization) or a white male who belonged to the Klan (or other white supremacist organization) or a Jewish lady who belonged to the JDL (or other Jewish supremacist organizations) should be rejected.

It is a student organization. Anyone who volunteers is likely to have strong opinions and I would bet that they would have no problem with extremists from any number of "approved" minorities (black panthers, hamas, et. al.). The only time it is a problem is when the bias goes against the political ideology of the sitting members. Edited March 9, 2015 by TimG

[Michael Hardner]

Why? People talk about ethnic stereotypes in common, everyday conversations all across this country every day of the year. All of us, except you extra special types who are up there on that high pedestal above the rest of us, have at least some stereotypical views of a wide variety of groups. Comedians trade on those stereotypes all the time, be they Jewish or Indian or whatever.

Your post is replete with irrelevant facts.

[Michael Hardner]

Before Michael Hardner pulls the politically correct label ...

Then I read this post.

[jacee]

Clearly the student board was behaving in a discriminatory fashion, and clearly it was corrected as it should be.

[Bob Macadoo]

It is a student organization. Anyone who volunteers is likely to have strong opinions and I would bet that they would have no problem with extremists from any number of "approved" minorities (black panthers, hamas, et. al.). The only time it is a problem is when the bias goes against the political ideology of the sitting members.

.....I notice you omitted Klan....didn't want to link JDL and Klan huh?

[TimG]

.....I notice you omitted Klan....didn't want to link JDL and Klan huh?

WTF? Obviously those organizations have views which conflict with the prejudices of the council (only "approved" racists are acceptable to most politically correct goons where "approved" racism means racism by non-white group towards other groups). Edited March 9, 2015 by TimG

[Bob Macadoo]

WTF? Obviously those organizations have views which conflict with the prejudices of the council (only "approved" racists are acceptable to most politically correct goons where "approved" racism means racism by non-white group towards other groups).

Exactly.....only caucasian groups can be discriminated against.

[Argus]

Your post is replete with irrelevant facts.

Well, you know, when I see something irrelevant in a post I simply ignore it in my reply, or don't reply. Is that too difficult for you?

[Argus]

.....I notice you omitted Klan....didn't want to link JDL and Klan huh?

There was no mention of any extremist organization to which the girl belonged, unless you consider Judaism extremist.

“Given that you are a Jewish student and very active in the Jewish community,”

Where is the question in that with regards to her extremism?

Seems to me the extremism was on the part of those doing the questioning, and only them.

[Argus]

Exactly.....only caucasian groups can be discriminated against.

Why do you assume she was Caucasian?

[Big Guy]

To TimG - This thread began with the statement that someone was denied a position because "she was Jewish". I read the article and other coverage of the same issue. The candidate was initially challenged by 4 members because they felt her "very active" involvement in Jewish organizations. The faculty stepped in and she passed easily.

She is a second year of an economics course and wants to get into law "in the future". The Judicial Council is the Supreme Court of that University. I would think that they would be very careful that students who apply do so for positive and educational reasons and not to satisfy a personal, political agenda.

Neither Jewish or Catholic or Protestant or Muslim or Black or Yellow of White or ... students should be excluded from any student boards based on their sex, colour, religion, sexual preference or physical state. They should be prioritized on their ability to objectively perform the duties of the board.