overthere Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 2. Putin does not want to annex any part of Ukraine other than Crimea. Baloney. He wants the resources of eastern Ukraine, and now he has them. With the active pimping and assistance of Merkel and Hollande. Putin does not want to start a new world war He does not have to, since the West will continue to give him whatever he wants. Putin wants to remain a ruler of Russia until his last day Agreed, He knows that sooner or later a new group of thieves will arise and depose him and kill him. He hinself became leader because he promised Boris Yeltsin that he and his family would be permitted to live after the transition. Modern Russia is not a new Soviet Union, it is much weaker. He will cherry pick nations with resources. Next up for the harsh hand will be Kazakhstan, which has huge amounts of oil and gas and no way to stop Russia from simply taking them. This is a war between Russia and Ukraine. Wrong tense. It WAS a war between the two, and Ukraine lost badly Do not allow Putin to crush Ukraine (by providing Ukraine with modern weapons, recce technology and communications, economical support). Too late. In any case, Ukraine is much too weak to fight a proxy war even with Westerh weapons. And who would supply these magical weapons. Nobody in Europe stepped up- in fact they have sold out the Ukraine , and the US has no spine for what must be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overthere Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Also #6 world economy. WWWTT It is not a govt as we know it. It's a massive kleptocracy, and Putin swept out the last batch of thieves a decade ago and replaced them with his friends. They control everything, and very little filters down to the average citizen. Since then, his personal fortune is estimated at $40 billion. Not bad for a guy that was a glorified cop 20 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASIP Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Fantasy. about 90% of that money has gone to the kleptocrats, which most definitely includes Putin himself. No. The poster says the truth. Russian people had a period of real prosperity (never seen before) during 2010s. The question is for how long and for what price. And the price is transformation of Russian economy into a service to pump oil and gas abroad. Enormous corruption. You are absolutely right about the thieves. Democracy has gone. A crisis was imminent. This is the reason behind Putin's spin of nationalism in Russia. But its wave will inevitably subside. If oil prices will be low, the Russian people prosperity will evaporate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASIP Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) Baloney. He wants the resources of eastern Ukraine, and now he has them. Sorry, pal, you are out of reality. There is no any resource in Donbass that Russia needs and can maintain. You probably never heard that Russia insists now that Donbass is a integral part of Ukraine. Russian commandos have even killed several warlords in Donbass who proclaimed independence of the rebel territory. Wrong tense. It WAS a war between the two, and Ukraine lost badly. Too late. In any case, Ukraine is much too weak to fight a proxy war even with Westerh weapons. And who would supply these magical weapons. Nobody in Europe stepped up- in fact they have sold out the Ukraine , and the US has no spine for what must be done. Ukraine is loosing but is far from being finished. Modern Russian weapons and unlimited supply of them take toll on Ukraine. Merkel and Hollande are not going to fight for Ukraine (it's completely understandable) but they haven't sold Ukraine at least yet. Please do not equate the US and Obama. The weapons can be supplied by: 1. US, 2. Poland, 3. Lithuania, 4. UK. No magical weapons are required just those that were used against Saddam Hussein. Really new western conventional weapons will finish the Russian Army very quickly. Edited February 17, 2015 by ASIP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 5. Putin is not Hitler. Putin is much worse. Care to expand on this statement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 I agree with most of what ASIP has stated. Might is right as it always has been - just ask the Americans. The EU wants this "problem" to just go away. If some other country decides to send "defensive" (whatever those are) into Ukraine they will only prolong the conflict and will create more problems for Europe. Where I disagree with ASIP is the direction of allegiance of the majority of people in Eastern Ukraine. In the last election they voted about 90% for the leader that Kiev tossed out. Also, Russian is the predominant language used in that area. I would like to see an agreement where the Eastern oblasts stay independent, a buffer zone created between Ukraine and the Independent states and a referendum (monitored by the UN) presented to the Independent states as to where they want to go. With about a million armed forces and far, far superior armaments, any weapons supplied to Kiev would guarantee a bloodbath that the Russians would not lose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Ok, so what would your response have been (if you were POTUS) when Putin invaded Crimea and then attempted to annex it? A similar reaction to what previous American administrations have done……From the onset of hostilities by Russian troops Ukrainian rebels, purchase the surplus Eastern Bloc weapons and munitions sitting in Eastern European NATO members arms depots and warehouses and donate them to the Kiev Government. Followed by working with NATO in providing training and intelligence to the Ukrainians and perhaps even forgiving any debt owed by the Ukrainians……… If the situation continues to worsen, or is escalated by the Russians, forward deploy NATO forces to former Soviet bases in Eastern Poland…. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 What has happened in Eastern Ukraine was sad and easily avoidable. Unfortunately, the vast majority of western politicians have a pseudo-cold-war mentality and look at everything through the lens of moral absolutism. There was a peaceful way to deal with this, but the west chose the non-peaceful way in order to maintain moral absolutism. What is needed is for all sides (West, Russia, Western Ukrainians, Eastern Ukrainians) to accept the principle of right to self determination. Give each oblast in Ukraine the right to determine its own future and have referendums in each oblast giving people the choice between belonging to Ukraine, Russia, or being an independent state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 I agree with most of what ASIP has stated. Might is right as it always has been - just ask the Americans. OK....still waiting for those Canadian peacekeepers to save the day...and blankets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 What has happened in Eastern Ukraine was sad and easily avoidable. Unfortunately, the vast majority of western politicians have a pseudo-cold-war mentality and look at everything through the lens of moral absolutism. There was a peaceful way to deal with this, but the west chose the non-peaceful way in order to maintain moral absolutism. What is needed is for all sides (West, Russia, Western Ukrainians, Eastern Ukrainians) to accept the principle of right to self determination. Give each oblast in Ukraine the right to determine its own future and have referendums in each oblast giving people the choice between belonging to Ukraine, Russia, or being an independent state. Sounds very Kumbiya to me. Russia threw that to the wind by driving in tanks and troops and breaking the Budapest Memorandum in doing so. Putin wants to re establish the former USSR and hes happy to kill whoever in order to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 With about a million armed forces and far, far superior armaments, any weapons supplied to Kiev would guarantee a bloodbath that the Russians would not lose. Ukrainian 7.62x39 steel core ammo works exactly the same as Russian 7.62x39 steel core ammo…….likewise supplying the Ukrainians with Polish, German, Czech, Hungarian and Romanian 7.62x39 steel core ammo would equal the same result…. Though the Russians have a far larger military, their ability to deploy and sustain a large force in the field, even just across their own border, is in doubt…….The Ukrainians (with Western aid) might very well not win a war against the Russians, but they sure wouldn’t lose a war to them either…. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Care to expand on this statement? Putin has the ability to kill as many (or more) people as Hitler did inside an hour........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 The weapons can be supplied by: 1. US, 2. Poland, 3. Lithuania, 4. UK. No magical weapons are required just those that were used against Saddam Hussein. Really new western conventional weapons will finish the Russian Army very quickly. Exactly, there is enough Soviet era arms and munitions within Eastern (NATO) European warehouses to fight three or four wars with the Russians……if one was to combine these with Western MANPADS, TOW/Javelin anti-tank missiles and Western satellite/signals intelligence, the Ukrainians could maintain, at worse, a stalemate with the Russians……. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) Putin has the ability to kill as many (or more) people as Hitler did inside an hour........ A number of countries now have this ability. Yet none have ever used it. The mere access to more advanced weapons does not make someone "worse than Hitler"... rather it would be a desire to use them to see millions of lives ended, to see one's hatreds furthered at any cost, a willingness to attempt to hunt a race of people to extinction even at the cost of the death of your own nation. In my opinion, Putin is a typical leader intent on furthering his own legacy and extending his power, and he is fairly shrewd and effective in doing so. He has no particular desire to see blood spilled and no frothing hatred of any peoples. Nor does he want to see Russia destroyed in an unwinnable war in a gamble to achieve some ideological end. He will, however, pounce on opportunities ripe for the taking, and work behind the scenes to engineer those opportunities. Dangerous, certainly. But worse than Hitler? Not even close. Edited February 17, 2015 by Bonam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 ....In my opinion, Putin is a typical leader intent on furthering his own legacy and extending his power, and he is fairly shrewd and effective in doing so. He has no particular desire to see blood spilled and no frothing hatred of any peoples. Nor does he want to see Russia destroyed in an unwinnable war in a gamble to achieve some ideological end. He will, however, pounce on opportunities ripe for the taking, and work behind the scenes to engineer those opportunities. Dangerous, certainly. But worse than Hitler? Not even close. Agreed...Putin is a regional threat at best, able to influence and enforce policy close to Russia's own backyard. He has watched the post Cold War West engage in far flung wars and campaigns that he could never match. He has watched his nation's currency devalued overnight, just as it has done before. Comparing today's Russia to the Soviet Union is an insult to the...Soviet Union. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 A number of countries now have this ability. Yet none have ever used it. The mere access to more advanced weapons does not make someone "worse than Hitler"... rather it would be a desire to use them to see millions of lives ended, to see one's hatreds furthered at any cost, a willingness to attempt to hunt a race of people to extinction even at the cost of the death of your own nation. In my opinion, Putin is a typical leader intent on furthering his own legacy and extending his power, and he is fairly shrewd and effective in doing so. He has no particular desire to see blood spilled and no frothing hatred of any peoples. Nor does he want to see Russia destroyed in an unwinnable war in a gamble to achieve some ideological end. He will, however, pounce on opportunities ripe for the taking, and work behind the scenes to engineer those opportunities. Dangerous, certainly. But worse than Hitler? Not even close. I disagree, outside of proxy wars and border skirmishes, no two nuclear armed states have fought a sustained war…….Inversely, because Putin has large stockpiles of nuclear weapons, the probability of direct Western intervention against Russia is greatly reduced, which of course was not the case with Hitler…… Though I don’t discount that presently Putin is probably not as evil (or as insane) as Hitler, up to the start of the Second World War, many Western leaders didn’t think Hitler was all that bad either. Unlike Hitler though, as mentioned, Putin’s Russia has the greater potential to be far more dangerous then Hitler’s Nazi Germany……So is Putin presently as bad as Hitler? Not at all, but he has the potential to be far more dangerous to, likewise the rest of the World is greatly hindered in directly confronting him….and Putin knows this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) Agreed...Putin is a regional threat at best, able to influence and enforce policy close to Russia's own backyard. He has watched the post Cold War West engage in far flung wars and campaigns that he could never match. He has watched his nation's currency devalued overnight, just as it has done before. Comparing today's Russia to the Soviet Union is an insult to the...Soviet Union. Without a doubt, but then the West was prepared to fight a nuclear conflict if the Russians rode through the Fulda Gap.........Make no mistake, if the Soviets annexed a portion of West Germany in the 80s, WW III would have been on like Donkey Kong... Edited February 17, 2015 by Derek 2.0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Without a doubt, but then the West was prepared to fight a nuclear conflict if the Russians rode through the Fulda Gap.........Make no mistake, if the Soviets annexed a portion of West Germany in the 80s, WW III would have been on like Donkey Kong... Yes...but that was a different time. Other parts of Europe went on to literally become "Balkanized". This is Ukraine's time in barrel. Also, the Russians have a justified paranoia that predates the Cold War by generations. They still count the graves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Fantasy. about 90% of that money has gone to the kleptocrats, which most definitely includes Putin himself. How is that different from the system we live in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Without a doubt, but then the West was prepared to fight a nuclear conflict if the Russians rode through the Fulda Gap.........Make no mistake, if the Soviets annexed a portion of West Germany in the 80s, WW III would have been on like Donkey Kong... Why are we not seeing WWIII after Russian annexed Crimea? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 I disagree, outside of proxy wars and border skirmishes, no two nuclear armed states have fought a sustained war…….Inversely, because Putin has large stockpiles of nuclear weapons, the probability of direct Western intervention against Russia is greatly reduced, which of course was not the case with Hitler…… Who has larges stockpiles of nuclear weapons? Russia, USA, UK, Germany, Israel, France. But I like the way you framed it to only say Russians have large stockpiles. Actually the Russians had little early on an the US had bad intelligence which allowed them to progress faster in the nuclear area compared to Russia. But that could have been on purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Escalating a conflict by providing arms for either side of an armed disagreement is a mistake. This process only creates a war by proxy which in turn creates artificial balances which lead to even more war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Gosh....the U.S. Lend-Lease Act during WW2 was a mistake....who knew ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Who has larges stockpiles of nuclear weapons?Russia, USA, UK, Germany, Israel, France. But I like the way you framed it to only say Russians have large stockpiles. Actually the Russians had little early on an the US had bad intelligence which allowed them to progress faster in the nuclear area compared to Russia. But that could have been on purpose. Why do you continually go out of your way to defend Putin and his illegal and immoral war? I don't get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 How is that different from the system we live in? Our economic freedoms are much greater. How can you not know this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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