Argus Posted January 23, 2015 Report Posted January 23, 2015 I think Trudeau was simply reflecting a kind of typical modern Left wing belief that militarism is bad under virtually all circumstances, and that 'civilized' people can settle all the problems without ever resorting to violence. Only brutal, ignorant, unsophisticated people ever resort to the use of the military, after all. It was a widely held belief in the thirties, most obviously espoused by this guy, who mocked and ridiculed those who thought Britain needed to prepare itself and stand up against an impending threat as crass warmongers. And no, I'm not in comparing the threat of ISIS to the Nazis. But the mentality is the same (actually the same on both sides). And what a lot of people on this site, and people like Trudeau seem to forget, is that the West has a fairly successful history of attacking potential threats BEFORE they can harm us. The US forgot that with regard to Bin Laden, but I think they really had no idea just how much damage terrorists could do barring worst-case, unlikely (or so they thought) scenarios involving nuclear or biological weapons. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
PrimeNumber Posted January 23, 2015 Report Posted January 23, 2015 That depends on how you define success. If it means turning the place into a giant sucking vacuum cleaner where all the crazy Islamists go to die, then that's success, as far as I'm concerned. You speak like every single crazy Islamist will die there, which I can assure you will not be the case. In fact I believe that all we are doing is creating more crazy Islamists. And once we leave, a new group will rise out of the ashes of the old ones and rinse, lather, repeat. Quote “Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find your way around or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves. Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle. You put it into a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.”― Bruce Lee
Argus Posted January 23, 2015 Report Posted January 23, 2015 Recall the question Jodi Foster's character intended to ask of the advanced aliens in the movie Contact, "How did you do it, how did your species survive it's adolescence with out destroying yourselves"? The only answe I can imagine is that they managed to govern themselves in a manner in which the government was under the control of ordinary aliens instead of the rich ones. Harper is not rich, nor is Obama. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
eyeball Posted January 23, 2015 Report Posted January 23, 2015 I really don't get why you lefties continue to dwell on this considering the Liberals put us in Afghanistan, which arguable was way worse and longer lasting (and most pointless) than if we'd gone to Iraq.Did you miss where I said there's no shortage of stupid in Ottawa?Why is it that you right-wingers cannot imagine a world in which people who are not with you might also not be with anyone else? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Argus Posted January 23, 2015 Report Posted January 23, 2015 You speak like every single crazy Islamist will die there, which I can assure you will not be the case. In fact I believe that all we are doing is creating more crazy Islamists. And once we leave, a new group will rise out of the ashes of the old ones and rinse, lather, repeat. No, I don't think they'll all die there, but the die-off is significant. We're funneling literally hundreds of crazy Islamists from all over the West (and thousands from the rest of the world) into this place, and then bombing them. We just need to make sure we don't let the survivors come back again afterward. Will it work? God knows (no pun intended), but it's been some years since the WTC fell and there have been no major successful operations on this side of the Atlantic. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 23, 2015 Report Posted January 23, 2015 I think Trudeau was simply reflecting a kind of typical modern Left wing belief that militarism is bad under virtually all circumstances, and that 'civilized' people can settle all the problems without ever resorting to violence. Only brutal, ignorant, unsophisticated people ever resort to the use of the military, after all. Right...this is just Chapter 2 of winning hearts and minds with hugs and warm Canadian blankets, even as they are beheading you. It will get him some votes, but not enough to win an election for his party. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Argus Posted January 23, 2015 Report Posted January 23, 2015 Did you miss where I said there's no shortage of stupid in Ottawa? Why is it that you right-wingers cannot imagine a world in which people who are not with you might also not be with anyone else? I can imagine that. I'm sure that, like Trudeau and Chamberlain, you feel all military action is pointless, wasteful, and solves nothing. If everyone thought like you, all over the world, we would definitely be much better off. Unfortunately, I don't think that point of view is safe to embrace as government policy quite yet. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
eyeball Posted January 23, 2015 Report Posted January 23, 2015 Harper is not rich, nor is Obama.No but they are powerful and so they attract the rich like shit attracts flies. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
PrimeNumber Posted January 23, 2015 Report Posted January 23, 2015 Right...this is just Chapter 2 of winning hearts and minds with hugs and warm Canadian blankets, even as they are beheading you. It will get him some votes, but not enough to win an election for his party. hahaha I can assure you bush that I will not be voting for Trudeau nor will anyone be beheading me.... hahaha Alarmist much? Quote “Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find your way around or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves. Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle. You put it into a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.”― Bruce Lee
PrimeNumber Posted January 23, 2015 Report Posted January 23, 2015 I can imagine that. I'm sure that, like Trudeau and Chamberlain, you feel all military action is pointless, wasteful, and solves nothing. If everyone thought like you, all over the world, we would definitely be much better off. Unfortunately, I don't think that point of view is safe to embrace as government policy quite yet. Not all Military action is pointless, wasteful and solves nothing. Just the ones involving anything to do with the Middle East. Quote “Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find your way around or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves. Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle. You put it into a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.”― Bruce Lee
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 23, 2015 Report Posted January 23, 2015 hahaha I can assure you bush that I will not be voting for Trudeau nor will anyone be beheading me.... hahaha Alarmist much? Easy for you to say....count the heads. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 23, 2015 Report Posted January 23, 2015 Not all Military action is pointless, wasteful and solves nothing. Just the ones involving anything to do with the Middle East. Doesn't matter...Canadians have been fed this line so long it always goes down easy. "We need a UN resolution...by golly !" Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Argus Posted January 23, 2015 Report Posted January 23, 2015 Not all Military action is pointless, wasteful and solves nothing. Just the ones involving anything to do with the Middle East. Really? Suppose Clinton had been less worried about what the world thought of him, and less worried about incidental casualties, and let his people shoot a few missiles at Bin Laden whenever they could see him? That would have stopped WTC from happening. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
PrimeNumber Posted January 23, 2015 Report Posted January 23, 2015 Easy for you to say....count the heads. I have no plans on ever going to the middle east where the heads are rolling. I dare anyone to try and come to my door step and attempt any such thing. With or without action in the middle east, that just aint gonna happen. Quote “Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find your way around or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves. Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle. You put it into a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.”― Bruce Lee
PrimeNumber Posted January 23, 2015 Report Posted January 23, 2015 Really? Suppose Clinton had been less worried about what the world thought of him, and less worried about incidental casualties, and let his people shoot a few missiles at Bin Laden whenever they could see him? That would have stopped WTC from happening. Yes, and if I can travel back in time I could stab Hitler in the heart and save Europe before he ascended to become the Chancellor of Germany. Unfortunately the plans for my time travel machine have been coming along very slowly. Hindsight is always 20/20 Argus. Quote “Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find your way around or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves. Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle. You put it into a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.”― Bruce Lee
Argus Posted January 23, 2015 Report Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) Yes, and if I can travel back in time I could stab Hitler in the heart and save Europe before he ascended to become the Chancellor of Germany. Unfortunately the plans for my time travel machine have been coming along very slowly. Hindsight is always 20/20 Argus. It's not hindsight. I'm pointing out that more robust military action then would have saved them a lot of grief. How many terrorists are they disrupting and killing now who, left to their own devices, might have done something similar or worse? Remember that the US was not in Afghanistan or Iraq when bin Laden was planning the World Trade Center bombings. Bill Clinton was president, and things were much calmer in the middle east. People look at what the conflicts there over the past ten years and say that's inspiring terrorism and attacks on the West, yet bin laden was blowing up US embassies and warships and people before any of that happened, and had attracted ten thousand jihadists to his camp in Afghanistan. Edited January 23, 2015 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
PrimeNumber Posted January 23, 2015 Report Posted January 23, 2015 Remember that the US was not in Afghanistan or Iraq when bin Laden was planning the World Trade Center bombings. Bill Clinton was president, and things were much calmer in the middle east. People look at what the conflicts there over the past ten years and say that's inspiring terrorism and attacks on the West, yet bin laden was blowing up US embassies and warships and people before any of that happened, and had attracted ten thousand jihadists to his camp in Afghanistan. Remember that the attacks we're a direct result of mostly Western countries and Russia mucking about in the Middle East. If we just don't do any of that, none of this happens. Pretty easy to declare absolutes after the fact isn't it? Quote “Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find your way around or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves. Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle. You put it into a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.”― Bruce Lee
Argus Posted January 23, 2015 Report Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) Remember that the attacks we're a direct result of mostly Western countries and Russia mucking about in the Middle East. If we just don't do any of that, none of this happens. Pretty easy to declare absolutes after the fact isn't it? The only mucking we'd done was when Iraq invaded Kuwait. The intervention then was done pretty much with the agreement of almost all local governments and the UN, and in our own economic interest - not wanting an enemy to control even more of the oil and threaten Saudi Arabia, where still more was located. As for Russia, well, I'm not a fan of the Russians. Still, it's noteworthy that weaker parts of the world get screwed over by stronger parts of the world all the time, but we don't see Africans or South Americans bombing buildings in London and Washington. I don't think you can draw a straight line and say that because we did A they did B, as if doing B was something either reasonable or foreseeable. Edited January 23, 2015 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
eyeball Posted January 23, 2015 Report Posted January 23, 2015 Sure you can when you're dealing with a culture that places such a high premium on vengeance. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
dre Posted January 23, 2015 Report Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) We don't know what Harper would've done. That's your opinion. Regardless, what Justin said, reveals stuff about Justin, nobody else. But he DID follow the US into the war in Iraq. This current operation is the SAME WAR... it never ended. ISIL is the exact same insurgency they have been fighting for a decade. These are the 80 thousand insurgents that the US temporarily dealt with by paying them not to fight. So Harper DID get us into the Iraq war and its ugly aftermath. We are there! The next step: Canadian ground troops. Within the next couple of months Canada will announce its participation in a spring offensive against major ISIL/Sunni strongholds like Mosul. Wait and see! Edited January 23, 2015 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
On Guard for Thee Posted January 23, 2015 Report Posted January 23, 2015 But he DID follow the US into the war in Iraq. This current operation is the SAME WAR... it never ended. ISIL is the exact same insurgency they have been fighting for a decade. These are the 80 thousand insurgents that the US temporarily dealt with by paying them not to fight. So Harper DID get us into the Iraq war and its ugly aftermath. We are there! The next step: Canadian ground troops. Within the next couple of months Canada will announce its participation in a spring offensive against major ISIL/Sunni strongholds like Mosul. Wait and see! I think the only spring offensive Harper will launch is when he breaks his own law and calls an eary election. Hopefully that will keep him occupied and out of trouble. Quote
dre Posted January 23, 2015 Report Posted January 23, 2015 I don't think you can draw a straight line and say that because we did A they did B, as if doing B was something either reasonable or foreseeable. It certainly was forseeable and it was forseen. You would have to be stupid to not see that US foreign policy in the middle east would eventually enrage its opponents to the point where they struck back. Americas own intelligence agencies had been warning them of this for years. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
eyeball Posted January 23, 2015 Report Posted January 23, 2015 You can bet Harper is praying for a galvanizing event. I'm not saying he would do it, but I wouldn't put it past some of his more radicalized ilk to direct our intelligence services to let one through. These are the really dangerous times we're entering now. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
dre Posted January 23, 2015 Report Posted January 23, 2015 I think the only spring offensive Harper will launch is when he breaks his own law and calls an eary election. Hopefully that will keep him occupied and out of trouble. Nope! Canada WILL have ground troops in a spring offensive against ISIL. Ill check back in with you for a little "I told ya so!" once its announced. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
PrimeNumber Posted January 23, 2015 Report Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) Sure you can when you're dealing with a culture that places such a high premium on vengeance. Even Bin Laden himself declared the exact reasons for the attacks which means even he thought A=B. It's a never ending cycle over there, once you stick your nose in, good luck getting out without enduring suffering. The question you have to ask is was all that mucking about worth it for the US to endure the 9/11 attacks? And are we willing to endure the same thing with our continued and possibly elevated support? Edited January 23, 2015 by PrimeNumber Quote “Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find your way around or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves. Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle. You put it into a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.”― Bruce Lee
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