drummindiver Posted January 20, 2015 Report Posted January 20, 2015 And the fact that groups do this to each other. What do religious people say about the "west"... that it's full of degrading images of pornography, of greed and depravity. We really like to point out the faults in others, and to come up with complicated reasons why our fault-pointing isn't a result of something bad inside of us... Uh, Michael, I like to point out the fact that Muslims killing innocent ppl in the name of Islam is not the result of something bad inside us, it is something bad inside Islam. Until apologists get over their pc stance and admit this, there are going to be a hell of alot more full body bags. You want to point out crusades, yes, something bad inside Christianity. Fully admit this. Who doesn't? Quote
drummindiver Posted January 20, 2015 Report Posted January 20, 2015 But you are generalizing that to the entire religion. . If the thrown shoe fits. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted January 20, 2015 Report Posted January 20, 2015 Uh, Michael, I like to point out the fact that Muslims killing innocent ppl in the name of Islam is not the result of something bad inside us, it is something bad inside Islam. You seem to have purposely missed the point. I didn't say that other people killed people because of bad inside YOU, I said your need to point out problems with others rather than yourself could be. Until apologists get over their pc stance and admit this, there are going to be a hell of alot more full body bags. I don't think anybody is apologizing here, and even if they were... and they stopped... how would that result in ISIS giving up ? That's pretty megalomaniacal. You want to point out crusades, yes, something bad inside Christianity. Fully admit this. Who doesn't? No... I think things that happened thousands of years ago are probably irrelevant. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
drummindiver Posted January 20, 2015 Report Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) "You seem to have purposely missed the point. I didn't say that other people killed people because of bad inside YOU, I said your need to point out problems with others rather than yourself could be." Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean. I did not purposely miss the point. Referring to this topic there is such a huge juxtaposition of what I may do -swear, speed, give the finger to somebody cutting me off- than to the acts I am referring to - cutting aid workers heads' off to name but one. "I don't think anybody is apologizing here, and even if they were... and they stopped... how would that result in ISIS giving up ? That's pretty megalomaniacal." ISIS is not really the problem. They are a symptom of the problem. There are many defenders here who have stated Islamists are reacting to stimuli -read Israel and the US- and are justified. "No... I think things that happened thousands of years ago are probably irrelevant." Absolutely. I agree. However, you have stated in response to me on another issue that historical occurrences ie slavery to name one do have current relevance. I believe you also mentioned the Crusades yourself. Edited January 20, 2015 by drummindiver Quote
Michael Hardner Posted January 20, 2015 Report Posted January 20, 2015 Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean. I did not purposely miss the point. You said this: "Muslims killing innocent ppl in the name of Islam is not the result of something bad inside us" But I never suggested that. So, point missed. ISIS is not really the problem. They are a symptom of the problem. There are many defenders here who have stated Islamists are reacting to stimuli -read Israel and the US- and are justified. Can I have a cite for somebody here who says these attacks are JUSTIFIED ? Seriously. Also, you haven't answered my question. Even if there were such apologists, how would having them stop apologizing result in ISIS stopping ? This is my second request for clarification on this. bsolutely. I agree. However, you have stated in response to me on another issue that historical occurrences ie slavery to name one do have current relevance. I believe you also mentioned the Crusades yourself. I don't believe the crusades have an effect on anything. Slavery ended 150 years ago, or 6 or seven generations so I'll gladly accept that as a threshold of impact if it's acceptable to you too. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
cybercoma Posted January 20, 2015 Report Posted January 20, 2015 And the fact that groups do this to each other. What do religious people say about the "west"... that it's full of degrading images of pornography, of greed and depravity. We really like to point out the faults in others, and to come up with complicated reasons why our fault-pointing isn't a result of something bad inside of us... My point was merely that this is a lot more "simplistic" (black and white) than recognizing the differences the other groups have within them. It's ironic that Argus, a black and white thinker, would call Big Guy's discussion of the differences between Muslims as "simplistic." Quote
Argus Posted January 20, 2015 Report Posted January 20, 2015 I think the point is that not all Muslims nor the religion itself are responsible for the actions of extremist terrorists. I disagree. The religion itself has many very harsh, even draconian demands for its followers, and is purportedly the absolute unchangeable will of God Himself. How can you say it isn't responsible when its followers obey what the religion tells them to do? The fact it has no centralized authority only makes that worse. Discrimination against all Muslims is not justified: Islamophobia is bigotry. Depends on what kind of discrimination you mean. I'm all for discriminating on the basis of who we let to Canada. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 20, 2015 Report Posted January 20, 2015 Can you be more specific? Personally, I find all organized religion to be repulsive mind control. The bible, for example, is pretty gruesome stuff. But people are free to believe whatever they want. I see no reason to criticize one religion more than others. . You know, a lack of discrimination is not always a good thing. Discriminating is akin to judging. We use our judgement, our wisdom, our experience and our common sense to examine things and then judge them on their merits. The bible does indeed contain some gruesome things, if not so much as the Koran, but Christianity also has central authorities which have made great cultural advances over the centuries, just as society has, and so these more gruesome sections have been re-interpreted in that light. This is not something the Muslim religion has experienced because it has been deemed to be the absolutely true word of God, and any attempt at change is labelled blasphemy. Thus equating the two religions is quite wrong. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 20, 2015 Report Posted January 20, 2015 As to Argus , unfortunately your dislike of Big Guy and his method of posting will probably paint you into the Islamophobe corner from which you may or may not be able to extricate yourself in time. That is why I have no respect for your views nor respond to your rude and baiting comments. I wonder why you even bother. Don't worry, Big Guy. I don't dislike you. I just think almost all your views are simplistic and stupid. Your self-righteousness, in the face of your really dumb views, is just so ripe for mockery I can't really resist. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 20, 2015 Report Posted January 20, 2015 Is it so difficult to understand that it is possible to differentiate between the two groups? That is really the gist of things. To those who have absorbed the mindless ignorance of political correctness any unflattering judgement or description of any racial, ethnic, cultural, national or religious group is by definition anathema, regardless of evidence or reason. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 20, 2015 Report Posted January 20, 2015 Nothing says simplistic quite as well as, "Muslims Bad, Westerners Good," which ignores the depth and variety of beliefs that Big Guy pointed out. In other words, your insult here is nothing more than reflecting. That's once again nothing more than a desperate determination to never judge any group as better or worse than another lest your head explode with the sheer horror of veering aside from the straight jacket mentality of political correctness. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 20, 2015 Report Posted January 20, 2015 And the fact that groups do this to each other. What do religious people say about the "west"... that it's full of degrading images of pornography, of greed and depravity. We really like to point out the faults in others, and to come up with complicated reasons why our fault-pointing isn't a result of something bad inside of us... We might like to point out the faults of others but we don't explode them because their faults outage us. Maybe if the Muslim world learned this there'd be a lot less 'islamophobia'. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 20, 2015 Report Posted January 20, 2015 But you are generalizing that to the entire religion. . How can you possibly refer to an entire religion without generalizing? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 20, 2015 Report Posted January 20, 2015 My point was merely that this is a lot more "simplistic" (black and white) than recognizing the differences the other groups have within them. It's ironic that Argus, a black and white thinker, would call Big Guy's discussion of the differences between Muslims as "simplistic." I think it's ironic that you, a black and white thinker if ever there was one, would refer to me as a black and white thinker. There are no shades of gray in your world, cyber, and haven't been for a long time. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
eyeball Posted January 20, 2015 Report Posted January 20, 2015 So you believe then, that there is a secular agenda behind all the excesses currently attributed to some Muslims, be they ISIS and Boko Haram, or politicians in Pakistan? Take ISIS for example. Were they to achieve the goals set forth by their secular agenda, are you of the opinion that the end result would be a secular society under their rule? I can't see it myself. I can see a secular society being the end result of a Muslim rebellion against fundamentalist rule but we need to stop meddling in the region so this process of social evolution can develop naturally on it's own. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted January 20, 2015 Report Posted January 20, 2015 Uh, Michael, I like to point out the fact that Muslims killing innocent ppl in the name of Islam is not the result of something bad inside us, it is something bad inside Islam. Until apologists get over their pc stance and admit this, there are going to be a hell of alot more full body bags. You want to point out crusades, yes, something bad inside Christianity. Fully admit this. Who doesn't? Nobody is denying there is something bad inside Islam, what is being denied is that the west has had very much if anything to do with helping it grow and metastasize into the horror it's become. Sure, drill for the nerve long enough and you might get some passing reference to making a mistake or two in the region along the way but as far as an acknowledgement goes, it's like a fart in a hurricane. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Argus Posted January 20, 2015 Report Posted January 20, 2015 I can see a secular society being the end result of a Muslim rebellion against fundamentalist rule but we need to stop meddling in the region so this process of social evolution can develop naturally on it's own. Define "not meddling". For example, should we allow ISIS to take over a big chunk of the middle east? Should we abandon Afghanistan to the Taliban? Should we let Pakistan deteriorate into a failed state? Should we let the Saudis be overthrown by an ISIS version of themselves? Should we do all that and do nothing? What about when they fly planes into buildings over here, or blow stuff up? Should we just shrug and do nothing about that? Should we continue to buy oil from them? If they want to buy stuff from us with that oil money, like tanks, say, should we just say okay, or should we appoint ourselves as overseers to some degree, of what they can and cannot purchase? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
-1=e^ipi Posted January 20, 2015 Report Posted January 20, 2015 Should we let the Saudis be overthrown by an ISIS version of themselves? Would that even be worse than the current situation in Saudi Arabia? Maybe if all the islamists wipe each other out, liberals might be able to take power. Also, I'm not sure how ISIS is going to ever overthrow Saudi Arabia, the fourth most powerful nation on the planet. Quote
Argus Posted January 20, 2015 Report Posted January 20, 2015 Would that even be worse than the current situation in Saudi Arabia? Maybe if all the islamists wipe each other out, liberals might be able to take power. Also, I'm not sure how ISIS is going to ever overthrow Saudi Arabia, the fourth most powerful nation on the planet. Saudi Arabia is only powerful if its soldiers and police obey the king. If they are seduced by a more rigorous and uncompromising version of Islam which calls to them to join some sort of worldwide Caliphate then the King's power will melt away pretty quickly. Would it be worse? Well, from all accounts, yes, not only for the locals, but for the rest of the world. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
eyeball Posted January 20, 2015 Report Posted January 20, 2015 Define "not meddling". No, I'm fed up with repeating what this means to the deliberately ignorant. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Guest Posted January 21, 2015 Report Posted January 21, 2015 But you are generalizing that to the entire religion. . No I'm not. Not at all. I don't know of anyone who is, either on this site or elswhere. What I'm doing is just refusing to take Islam out of the discussion. That's all. Just blaming it where it is at fault. Not where it isn't. Like, Muslim kills someone for printing a cartoon, bad Muslim. Muslim doesn't, good Muslim. Same would apply to Norwegians, Buddhists, Maoris, you name it, if they were prone to taking umbrage at such things. Quote
jacee Posted January 21, 2015 Report Posted January 21, 2015 No I'm not. Not at all. I don't know of anyone who is, either on this site or elswhere. What I'm doing is just refusing to take Islam out of the discussion. That's all. Just blaming it where it is at fault. Not where it isn't. Like, Muslim kills someone for printing a cartoon, bad Muslim. Muslim doesn't, good Muslim. Same would apply to Norwegians, Buddhists, Maoris, you name it, if they were prone to taking umbrage at such things. I rest my case. . Quote
Guest Posted January 21, 2015 Report Posted January 21, 2015 I rest my case. . How exactly? Do you know what "if they were prone to taking umbrage at such things" means? Quote
Mighty AC Posted January 21, 2015 Report Posted January 21, 2015 But you are generalizing that to the entire religion. No I'm not. Not at all. I don't know of anyone who is, either on this site or elswhere. What I'm doing is just refusing to take Islam out of the discussion. That's all. Just blaming it where it is at fault. Not where it isn't. Like, Muslim kills someone for printing a cartoon, bad Muslim. Muslim doesn't, good Muslim. Same would apply to Norwegians, Buddhists, Maoris, you name it, if they were prone to taking umbrage at such things. Well said BC. Affleck looked like a fool on Bill Maher's show when he pulled the same, knee jerk, defense of Islam that Jacee is here. Far too many of my fellow lefties fall into this BS racism trap. It is ok to call out bad ideas and those that act on them. We do so with politicians, celebrities, Christians, etc. To quote Sam Harris, 'Islam is the mother load of bad ideas', so why should we avoid calling them out? Nothing and nobody should be exempt from criticism, especially those that would kill to prevent it. Quote "Our lives begin to end the day we stay silent about the things that matter." - Martin Luther King Jr"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities" - Voltaire
jacee Posted January 21, 2015 Report Posted January 21, 2015 How exactly? Do you know what "if they were prone to taking umbrage at such things" means? Who is "they" ? Define "prone"? If 2 in 1000 Canadian men are felons ... are Canadian men "prone" to be felons? Are 2 in 1000 Muslim men terrorists? Are Canadian men more "prone" to be felons than Muslims are to be terrorists? are-all-terrorists-muslims-it-s-not-even-close Should we count each of Anders Berens Breivik's 77 victims as a Christian terrorist crime? . Quote
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