Bob Macadoo Posted January 2, 2015 Report Posted January 2, 2015 http://ottawacitizen.com/news/politics/veterans-affairs-alleges-some-ex-soldiers-exaggerating-their-injuries Well we knew it was only a matter of time. When a program is overspending, not achieving promises, and looks bad politically.....start blaming those who can't defend themselves. EI, Stimulus, Military Procurement, etc. I think someone in the PMO is getting the heave-ho over letting this statement skip through. Quote
GostHacked Posted January 2, 2015 Report Posted January 2, 2015 If someone is willing to put their lives on the line for whatever reason, I think they should be treated well after their service. Apparently that does not seem to be the case. Those who have serious injuries and not all of them physical, are being lambasted by the same people who send them off to war? I believe those who are abusing the system are a small group. Unlike the politicians who send them off to war, while stealing our money, rights and freedoms. Quote
Big Guy Posted January 2, 2015 Report Posted January 2, 2015 Soldiers are human. If we create any system which does not have objective checks and balances then there will be those who will abuse it. Abuse in the sense that they will use it for their benefit for as long as they are allowed to do so. Can you imagine a workman compensation system where workers decide when they are unable to work and the worker decides when he/she is well enough to go back to work. I have no doubt that some are taking advantage of the program. I also do not blame them for doing it. Quit blaming the soldiers and fix the system. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
poochy Posted January 2, 2015 Report Posted January 2, 2015 Maybe it's just true? Are soldiers somehow not afflicted with the same frailites as the rest of us? As far as I know they are just people, if the police apearently can't help themselves from doing every horrible thing imaginable surely soldiers aren't likely to be perfect either. Quote
WIP Posted January 2, 2015 Report Posted January 2, 2015 I heard about Veterans Affairs cutting their budgets last year, and it doesn't sound like the problem is going away any time soon. It seems like we're following the U.S. example: lots of money for war toys/ not enough money to take care of returning veterans! Harper set somewhat of a precedent, back when he first became Prime Minister, and he was running over to Afghanistan to pose for photo-ops with our troops. Like every other idea he comes up with, it's stolen from the Republican Party play book. And just like the Republicans, supporting the troops means getting pictures taken with them, NOT doing anything for returning veterans! If we dig into this issue a little deeper, I suspect we'll find government bureaucrats looking to squeeze returning veterans on their medical claims. And what better way to do it than to say that they're exaggerating their mental disabilities. Mental illnesses are more difficult to ascertain than physical illness for the obvious reasons that the brain is still very poorly understood, even in this age of neuroimaging machines and developmental psychology! About three years ago, we had a new guy at work, who came from Afghanistan and wasn't diagnosed with any illnesses of any type. But after working for us for less than six months, he starts having the shakes, has trouble sleeping, and experiencing panic attacks. All symptoms he never described while he was in the war theater or when he first got back home. He was on light duty and had an extended leave for a little while, but we couldn't keep him for long since he had been with us for less than a year. So, when his symptoms didn't clear up, he had to be let go. I just hope he's not going through the nightmare of trying to prove his case to a bunch of faceless bureaucrats who are motivated by knocking off new claimants whenever possible, not assisting veterans! Quote Anybody who believers exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. -- Kenneth Boulding, 1973
Smallc Posted January 3, 2015 Report Posted January 3, 2015 I heard about Veterans Affairs cutting their budgets last year, and it doesn't sound like the problem is going away any time soon. It seems like we're following the U.S. example: lots of money for war toys/ not enough money to take care of returning veterans! What are you talking about? The DND budget has fallen from almost $25B to less than $20B. Quote
Ash74 Posted January 3, 2015 Report Posted January 3, 2015 It is a unforgivable crime to ignore or turn these fine people into scapegoats. There maybe some taking advantage of the system but this is one case that should be a innocent in till proven guilty. We owe these people anything we can do that can help them. Being cheap in a situation like this is not a crime but a unforgivable sin no matter what color of the party. Quote “Show me a young Conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains.”― Winston S. Churchill There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him. –Robert Heinlein
Bob Macadoo Posted January 3, 2015 Author Report Posted January 3, 2015 The problem is the same that exists for any social program.....its an either/or solution. One of my best friends is affected by this. He has severe PTSD. He is heavily medicated and he has case workers harassing him to use their replacement funds. Select your career now while you're dosed up and the career counselors are worse than high school variety.... Its just to say money was spent and one less mouth to feed. He stays in Limbo collecting benefits because as soon as he makes a step they want to cut him off. By their definition he's scamming the system. If they gave proper transition benefits and actually helped him rather than cutting a cheque he could get back on his feet. The man chose a career which he can't continue and he has 2 kids to think about.....he is the face of the Afghanistan veteran. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted January 3, 2015 Report Posted January 3, 2015 What of course is blanched over in this report is that it includes all Vets post-Korea.....from the 1950s through to present day, of which a tiny percentage are Afghan vets that were injured (be it physically or mentally) on deployment......When one looks at the vast majority claims, by far the largest ailment (~70-75% IIRC) is hearing loss, followed by back & knee pain from serving and retired members.......and of course hearing aides, chiropractors and physiotherapy is covered in full. Clearly hearing loss is the nature of the job, and preventative measures have been brought in in the preceding decades to help mitigate such injuries, but back/knee/joint pain is a common plight for most post 50 years of age, be they vets or not. Of course such injuries can be directly career related, inversely they can be caused by genetics, sports or by being overweight etc.........regardless, unlike the majority of Canadians, full treatment options are fully covered for vets no-questions-asked......Of course the media won't report on the plight of a retired officer in the RCAF that suffered a skiing injury in Germany, nor an overweight retired clerk in the army, both now suffering a common (to Canadian people) later in life ailment.......instead focusing on the more "dramatic", often of which is too only a ting percent.........There are far, far more serving and recently retired Afghan vets with no post-conflict injuries and of the ones that have been injured in various degrees, have made the transition to the next part of their (civilian) lives........ Clearly bad news sells............ Also by happenstance (if one must still place blame), the media and Official Opposition often fail to mention the current Veterans Charter was tabled by the previous Liberal Government, and supported by both the Tories and NDP...... Quote
Bob Macadoo Posted January 3, 2015 Author Report Posted January 3, 2015 What of course is blanched over in this report is that it includes all Vets post-Korea.....from the 1950s through to present day, of which a tiny percentage are Afghan vets that were injured (be it physically or mentally) on deployment..... Way to try and gloss it over.The report release was not to shame those skiers injured in Frankfurt in '72....it was to cast aspersions on the costlier (or projected) group. The report highlights the 1000 claimers since 2006 from a program for transitioning....not the hearing aid payout. Again to say they are abusers as they haven't got off the dole yet. Now if you want to share the blame to another party that the program is "ripe for abuse", that's fine. Just be aware of the famous line I've heard here in ON; The gov't has had a decade to fix it, yet nothing...... The issue isn't if there is abuse.....it's rather than fix a program yet again the gov't tries to shift the blame to the helpless......only this time these aren't lobster fishermen or natives.....these are people the public has sympathy for........campaign mistake. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted January 3, 2015 Report Posted January 3, 2015 Way to try and gloss it over. Or add perspective that is often loss...... The report release was not to shame those skiers injured in Frankfurt in '72....it was to cast aspersions on the costlier (or projected) group. The report highlights the 1000 claimers since 2006 from a program for transitioning....not the hearing aid payout. Again to say they are abusers as they haven't got off the dole yet. Did you read your own link? Nearly 1,000 injured veterans enrolled in the rehabilitation program when it was created in 2006, according to the report. Demand was expected to drop off over the following years, but more than 5,800 vets were enrolled in the rehab program in March 2013, and 9,100 are expected by 2018. In a background briefing with the Citizen this week, a Veterans Affairs official attributed the growth to pent-up demand among veterans who had served after the Korean War. But the report also shows that veterans, once they are in the program, aren’t leaving. Odd that the number of injured veterans are increasing, several years after the end of our involvement in the Afghan war........Is this an indication of 1000s of Afghan injuries slipping through the cracks for several years unnoticed -or- the baby boomer generation now retiring and getting themselves (and their German ski adventure injuries) sorted out before retirement? Now if you want to share the blame to another party that the program is "ripe for abuse", that's fine. Just be aware of the famous line I've heard here in ON; The gov't has had a decade to fix it, yet nothing......The issue isn't if there is abuse.....it's rather than fix a program yet again the gov't tries to shift the blame to the helpless......only this time these aren't lobster fishermen or natives.....these are people the public has sympathy for........campaign mistake. I don't think there is any major issues with the new Veterans Charter........the option of a lump sum is far more flexible then a monthly pittance fit for dinning on cat-food as previous........... And I'll tell you why this is not a campaign issue, a reason well known among serving and retired members, the support they do receive from Canadians is a mile wide but about an inch deep.......And most do know their plight will steadily worsen under a Liberal or NDP Government, this of course is made obvious by the fact that neither have offered solutions to the new Veteran's Charter that they politically supported, all the while making it clear their policies (and in turn funding) priorities for the armed forces........... I have no doubt though that a Liberal/NDP government wouldn't reverse cuts (money and personal) made to Veterans Affairs, despite the majority of its clientele rapidly no longer requiring services.......a win for vets PSAC no doubt...... Quote
jacee Posted January 3, 2015 Report Posted January 3, 2015 (edited) Odd that the number of injured veterans are increasing, several years after the end of our involvement in the Afghan war........Is this an indication of 1000s of Afghan injuries slipping through the cracks for several years unnoticed -or- the baby boomer generation now retiring and getting themselves (and their German ski adventure injuries) sorted out before retirement? Wow! That's a nasty allegation. Can you provide any backup for your facts - # boomer (suddenly) injured vets for example? And how many of those skiied in Germany would be good. I don't think there is any major issues with the new Veterans Charter........the option of a lump sum is far more flexible then a monthly pittance fit for dinning on cat-food as previous...........I don't think it's reasonable to expect vets with PTSD (ie mental illness) to manage a pittance of a lump sum to provide a lifetime income, and their income could drop precipitously due to market fluctuation beyond their control. But perhaps you could convince me by showing some actual lump sums awarded and how they can be managed. . Edited January 3, 2015 by jacee Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted January 3, 2015 Report Posted January 3, 2015 Wow! That's a nasty allegation. . No, it was a rhetorical question. Can you provide any backup for your facts - # boomer (suddenly) injured vets for example? And how many of those skiied in Germany would be good. Pure logic........how many members served in the Canadian Forces post Korea, versus how many were injured in Afghanistan.........the report linked in the OP speaks briefly to it, but doesn't indicate actual numbers....of course, of serving or recently retired members, only a small percent actually went over to Afghanistan, and of those that went over, only a small percent again actually left the bases and saw combat.....and of them, only a small percent received injuries and of those, only an even smaller percent have complained to the media about their "rough treatment" by Veterans Affairs.......... I don't think it's reasonable to expect vets with PTSD (ie mental illness) to manage a pittance of a lump sum to provide a lifetime income, and their income could drop precipitously due to market fluctuation beyond their control. You mean piss it away? An unheard of prospect for younger members to do within the Forces....... But perhaps you could convince me by showing some actual lump sums awarded and how they can be managed. . That of course is dependent on the individual.......of course, none of those Vets that have come forward with being cheated have been forthwith in demonstrating their own management of their settlements...... Quote
jacee Posted January 4, 2015 Report Posted January 4, 2015 No, it was a rhetorical question. Pure logic........how many members served in the Canadian Forces post Korea, versus how many were injured in Afghanistan.........the report linked in the OP speaks briefly to it, but doesn't indicate actual numbers....of course, of serving or recently retired members, only a small percent actually went over to Afghanistan, and of those that went over, only a small percent again actually left the bases and saw combat.....and of them, only a small percent received injuries and of those, only an even smaller percent have complained to the media about their "rough treatment" by Veterans Affairs.......... You mean piss it away? An unheard of prospect for younger members to do within the Forces....... That of course is dependent on the individual.......of course, none of those Vets that have come forward with being cheated have been forthwith in demonstrating their own management of their settlements...... Wow. Injured vets really piss you off. Bizarre. . Quote
Bob Macadoo Posted January 4, 2015 Author Report Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) No, it was a rhetorical question.That had no appearance of a rhetorical question, it was in fact ripe for rebuttal. Maybe you don't know what a rhetorical question is. Here's one; "Do you think Fantino/Harper will apologize for this media statement?"IMO and observation it is indicative of soldiers who are realizing they don't have the ability to serve to their best or even mediocre (some coming to it later than others) anymore and need help transitioning as opposed to retiring.....two different terms with different programs. This due to the horrorsthey have seen as opposed to those on here who splooge over the latest Glock but have never seen a charred family in a roadside ditch. Pure logic........how many members served in the Canadian Forces post Korea, versus how many were injured in Afghanistan......about their "rough treatment" by Veterans Affairs..........Tell us warhawk....I know you have the data.....how many......if it was approaching zero you'd be quoting it......I'm willing to bet its not since you are using the fallacious argument of "pure logic". Edited January 4, 2015 by Bob Macadoo Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted January 4, 2015 Report Posted January 4, 2015 Wow. Injured vets really piss you off. Bizarre. . Not the least, my "anger" is over the political theatre brought about by the Opposition parties. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted January 4, 2015 Report Posted January 4, 2015 blah blah blah Name calling? Are you seeking an adult discussion on the topic? (rhetorical question) Quote
Bob Macadoo Posted January 4, 2015 Author Report Posted January 4, 2015 Name calling? Are you seeking an adult discussion on the topic? (rhetorical question) The splooge comment too much for you? I figured with the military porn you post you wouldn't be offended. I apologize. Quote
jacee Posted January 4, 2015 Report Posted January 4, 2015 Not the least, my "anger" is over the political theatre brought about by the Opposition parties. Ah so slandering injured vets is just your bit of political theatre. Sounds like the Fantino way. :/ Have you noticed that he's slandering and offending his way into retirement? You might take a lesson. . Quote
Michael Hardner Posted January 4, 2015 Report Posted January 4, 2015 Derek & Bob: please do not make this personal, thanks. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Bob Macadoo Posted January 4, 2015 Author Report Posted January 4, 2015 When you comment on the Rue soliloquy under Zionism......I'll heed your contribution. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted January 4, 2015 Report Posted January 4, 2015 Ah so slandering injured vets is just your bit of political theatre. Sounds like the Fantino way. :/ Have you noticed that he's slandering and offending his way into retirement? You might take a lesson. . Who have I slandered libeled? Quote
jacee Posted January 4, 2015 Report Posted January 4, 2015 Who have I slandered libeled? Read my post, then reread your rant. . Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted January 4, 2015 Report Posted January 4, 2015 Read my post, then reread your rant. . I did read your post, that was what I was responding to......so who was libeled? Quote
poochy Posted January 4, 2015 Report Posted January 4, 2015 Im always amazed by how terrible this country is while having in reality not changed at all. When their guy was cutting everything harder than your guy, well, that wasn't so bad, when their guy was doing nothing for the environment while subsidizing the oil sands, well, their guy wasn't the devil anyway, but your guy? O he's the antichrist, it's all so boring. Almost nothing has changed, and what has is skin deep, veterans are not being treated worse than they have been, differently maybe, but not worse, maybe we can complain about them not being treated better. Quote
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