Afghanistan Lessons

[Army Guy]

I don't fault soldiers. They do a very fine job with what they are given.

I don't know who you're talking about. The ones not voting are likely not complaining either ... To my knowledge.

Read your link again ... About the information that conveniently 'disappeared'.

These guys are sharks.

You really think they're leaving such info lying around?

.

Let me ask you this , did you vote....i take it you did not approve of the Afghan mission , did you take part in demostrations, did you sign a partion , did you do anything to make your voice or opinion known....these are your rights or responsibilities as a Canadian citizen.....if you answered no then the issue could not mean very much to you, or you don't care enough to make change.....if you don't care then why should you have the right to whine or complain...without your voice the government can do anything it wants.....and if you let them , then you deserve to live with any thing they do, do in our names.....can't make it any clearer than that....

So other than a soldier that was in afghanistan , how did you come to the conclusion any of this was true.....if there is no proof, how does one prove a theory.....Your asking me and the others to make one giant leap of faith....it is not the Jacee i used you know..one that was not afraid to call bullshit when a theory could not be proved.....

[GostHacked]

I find it hard to believe that you do not know what options you have available under our democratically elected constitution. some of them i already spelled them out to you.....and yet you continue with this fantasy that the burden of whether we go to war should rest on our soldiers backs.....you suggest that by the soldiers refusing to go, there will not be a war or conflict.....it just wont work for a couple of reasons, there are enough people in this country who would gladly pick up arms for it, enjoy a decent pay check, and serve our great nation....in other words if a soldier was to quit his replacement would already be in training before he were released.....result would be like taking your hand out of a pail of water.....

second you would need to have the majority of the Canadian public to support those soldiers.....Not a chance in hell...i mean there are lots of Canadians who do, but not in the numbers you need for this to make a difference, they talk a good game but when asked to put some effort in well , you lose them......welcome to the unemployment line....

Here is my message to those that pay taxes and do not vote.....or do not exercise their democratic rights .....Suck it the f*** up....your in it for the free ride, they have something to say about everything, and yet are not willing to do anything about it..... stop whining and complaining you have not earned that right.....

Did we get to vote on going into Afghanistan?

And don't confuse support for the troops and support for the mission as being the same thing.

[jacee]

Let me ask you this , did you vote....i take it you did not approve of the Afghan mission , did you take part in demostrations, did you sign a partion , did you do anything to make your voice or opinion known....these are your rights or responsibilities as a Canadian citizen.....if you answered no then the issue could not mean very much to you, or you don't care enough to make change.....if you don't care then why should you have the right to whine or complain...without your voice the government can do anything it wants.....and if you let them , then you deserve to live with any thing they do, do in our names.....can't make it any clearer than that....

I don't provide personal info on an anonymous board. However, I can assure you there was plenty of opposition to going to Afghanistan. But governments don't always listen to letters, protests etc. We can't always stop them or change what they're doing.

So other than a soldier that was in afghanistan , how did you come to the conclusion any of this was true.....if there is no proof, how does one prove a theory.....Your asking me and the others to make one giant leap of faith....it is not the Jacee i used you know..one that was not afraid to call bullshit when a theory could not be proved.....

I am also willing to admit that sometimes you can't find the information to prove something when there are people, governments and corporations actively trying to hide that information as a matter of 'national security'.

Your link was pretty good.

.

Edited August 10, 2015 by jacee

[eyeball]

I find it hard to believe that you do not know what options you have available under our democratically elected constitution.

I'm aware of them I just don't think they matter or amount to very much is all.

some of them i already spelled them out to you.....and yet you continue with this fantasy that the burden of whether we go to war should rest on our soldiers backs...

No I've made it very clear that burden should rest on voter's backs. I think soldiers are bloody idiots for following and buying into so much of the outright bullshit our politicians shovel.

second you would need to have the majority of the Canadian public to support those soldiers.....Not a chance in hell...

You're in it for the money right, you said so yourself...so go sell war-bonds. Go peddle your wares to people who give a damn and quit living off my tit.

i mean there are lots of Canadians who do, but not in the numbers you need for this to make a difference, they talk a good game but when asked to put some effort in well , you lose them......welcome to the unemployment line....

No, you and the politicians lose them, that's why you need an unequivocal super-majority.

Here is my message to those that pay taxes and do not vote.....or do not exercise their democratic rights .....Suck it the f*** up....your in it for the free ride, they have something to say about everything, and yet are not willing to do anything about it..... stop whining and complaining you have not earned that right.....

As I've told you before, I do support you...against my will. You have some nerve telling me I have no right to question why I think it's being wasted on the likes of you.

[Rue]

You see to forget that Chretien thumbed his nose at your namesake and said, no. Perhaps he said it in french so you missed it.

Here is the point. He disagreed over the US initiating the invasion and not the UN. He had no problems with air wars in Libya or now with ISIL and he had no problem with Canadians sent to Afghanistan and neither does Justin.

The point is as well your beloved Obama thumbed his nose up using your words at Harper over Keystone as you are well aware. Your cherry picking of when politicians snit and snot at each other speaks for itself. You select events convenient to your opinion of the moment.

[Rue]

Army I commend your attempts. I myself would not attempt to converse with someone over Afhanistan when they can not find it on a map and rely solely on their cell phones for what they believe is the real world.

I think until you remove sheltered children from their bed-rooms and luxuries and have them travel to witness what goes on first hand, they won't have a clue what you say. That is why I support and participated in initiatives where we take young people out of their environments and brought them face to face with the conflict and then had them sit with one another from both sides of the dispute and assimilate the common feelings.

Its time consuming, emotional, intense, and its not practical in the long run, but it does work. It has prevented some from going on to terrorize and hate.

That of course was right there in Israel and on the West Bank.

Here in Canada trying to get a soft sheltered cell phone expert out of their basement or bedroom is quite difficult.

[Rue]

1-I'm aware of them I just don't think they matter or amount to very much is all.

2-You're in it for the money right, you said so yourself...so go sell war-bonds. Go peddle your wares to people who give a damn and quit living off my tit.

3-As I've told you before, I do support you...against my will. You have some nerve telling me I have no right to question why I think it's being wasted on the likes of you.

In regards to 1, you dismiss the democratic rights and freedoms you have and don't think they matter or amount to much. Your words. These to me are the words of someone who has never left his bedroom. How could you even say such a thing had you been to Central America, Africa, Asia, the Middle East or spoke to people who came to this country to enjoy the very things you think don't matter much. They bloody well matter. Generations of my family died and suffered precisely because they did not have the very rights you dismiss.

Your words are self indulgent and spoiled in my opinion and show a lack of awareness of what standards we have in this country compared to those in the majority of the world. You need to get out of your bed-room, turn the damn internet off, and travel and for once just witness. Or at least have the decency to go talk to a survivor or a war conflict who escaped to this country.

In regards to 2, he never said that. You also before accusing others of being materialistic better look at your own life style and ask youself where the money comes from for the way you live at this very moment. Its easy to call someone else a whore. Look in the mirror.

In regards to 3, no one forces you to do a damn thing. Those are the words of someone who confuses his sense of self. The fact you can not impose your beliefs on others the way you want to, does not make you forced to do a damn thing-it simply makes you marginal, alienated, feeling powerless. You are not forced to do a damn thing. Your very life is testament to that. Its also testament to the fact that because you feel politicians won't do what you believe is right, you are forced to do things. No you sit in luxury, taking it for granted and dismissing it. No one forces you from staying in this country and living with all the benefits you find unimportant.

Go on then. Leave the shopping mall and MacDonalds. Go. Shut the door on the way out to Saudi Arabia or Iran if you feel forced here. Buh bye.

[Army Guy]

Did we get to vote on going into Afghanistan?

And don't confuse support for the troops and support for the mission as being the same thing.

No we did not, but then again what was the last conflict that the citizens voted on in Canada.

I did not confuse , take a look at what the media was saying, what canadians were saying about the mission during the early years....and i do think there is s direct link to the amount of people that showed up at 3 am to see us off , with the support for the mission, i remember my last tour the only ones that showed up were family, maybe a few supporters.

[Army Guy]

I don't provide personal info on an anonymous board. However, I can assure you there was plenty of opposition to going to Afghanistan. But governments don't always listen to letters, protests etc. We can't always stop them or change what they're doing.

I am also willing to admit that sometimes you can't find the information to prove something when there are people, governments and corporations actively trying to hide that information as a matter of 'national security'.

Your link was pretty good.

.

Come on Jacee they are not that personal, I never said that, i said at the beginning there was a majority of support, most canadians were excited about a combat mission...

No they don't always listen, but when you get enough voices, they do, i remember a Ottawa university professor who got on the national media about Canadian soldiers abusing POW's, within days this very topic became a major political debate in the house so much so that a major investigation was carried out...it was eventually proven false, but the point is this was one man, one voice that stopped a nation in its tracks.....

look at history it is full of examples of people using their voices to make change , Dr Martin Luther King, the public out cry to end the vietnam war....all these changes were made because the citizens wanted them and they did something about them...

[Army Guy]

I'm aware of them I just don't think they matter or amount to very much is all.

No I've made it very clear that burden should rest on voter's backs. I think soldiers are bloody idiots for following and buying into so much of the outright bullshit our politicians shovel.

You're in it for the money right, you said so yourself...so go sell war-bonds. Go peddle your wares to people who give a damn and quit living off my tit.

No, you and the politicians lose them, that's why you need an unequivocal super-majority.

As I've told you before, I do support you...against my will. You have some nerve telling me I have no right to question why I think it's being wasted on the likes of you.

You make it very clear that you have given up, and just for the record EYEBALL, i never singled you out, i said those people that did not vote or make their voice heard got whatever government the rest of the country wanted, and they should stop whining and complaining because they did not take part in the process.

Now if you are one of those guys then i guess if the shoe fits then wear it.....

To ensure you really truly have the support of Canadians to invade other countries soldiers should insist on putting the question to referendum

No i think you made it very clear that the burden should be placed on the soldiers backs, ensuring that a referendum is held......that is your quote above is it not....

I'm in it for the money, now that shit is funney, if i was in it for the money then i would have been a garbage collector in a major city less danger and alot more money....what i did say is the wages are decent, if you compare them to other nations military services, but there are alot of other better paying jobs out there....in it for the money indeed....i remember a time not so long ago when a good chunk of the forces were going to the food banks, taking 2 or 3 part time jobs....because we were all in it for the money.....

One of your rights is freedom of speech, it must piss you off to no end that one of the guardians of those rights is the very same idiots...

Funney thing about the TIT eyeball, even soldiers pay taxes, so guys like you will not have anything to whine about......

You have never supported any soldier, airmen , sailor....you have said repeatedly that you do not support anything about the military, so lets not start now,...... i must have struck a cord, for you to get this worked up.....

[Army Guy]

Rue:

Thank you.

[On Guard for Thee]

Here is the point. He disagreed over the US initiating the invasion and not the UN. He had no problems with air wars in Libya or now with ISIL and he had no problem with Canadians sent to Afghanistan and neither does Justin.

The point is as well your beloved Obama thumbed his nose up using your words at Harper over Keystone as you are well aware. Your cherry picking of when politicians snit and snot at each other speaks for itself. You select events convenient to your opinion of the moment.

You did see to get the initial point, after that I really don't see one. Keep trying.

[Big Guy]

... er said that, i said at the beginning there was a majority of support, most canadians were excited about a combat mission...

Sorry Army Guy - I disagree. The last time Canadians were excited about a combat mission was WWI where young recruits sang as they went "over there" to spend a couple of months "to kick the Kaisers ass". After Ypres and Somme nobody who understood war was excited about combat any more.

[Army Guy]

True enough, and to be honest my first tour we were all excited, excited to test our training and chance to practice our craft , and that all quickly disappeared with our first contact with the enemy, and once we had experienced what war is truly like...the same could be said of those thousands of Canadians who were there to see us off where excited as we were, carrying signs , yelling through the fence, you know those slogans i'm talking about....the kind spoken by those that have not experienced what war is about.....none the less they were excited...recruiting numbers went way up....it all points to support, and a want to contribute.

[Rue]

Rue:

Thank you.

Its the other way around!

[eyeball]

No i think you made it very clear that the burden should be placed on the soldiers backs, ensuring that a referendum is held......that is your quote above is it not....

Comprehension much? Jesus...

Yes that's exactly what I said; To ensure you really truly have the support of Canadians to invade other countries soldiers should insist on putting the question to referendum ergo, put the burden of deciding to go on the people who are sending you. Next to politicians soldiers are the very last people I'd want deciding who we invade.

I'm in it for the money, now that shit is funney,

I thought so too listening to you go on and no about decent paycheques and unemployment lines.

One of your rights is freedom of speech, it must piss you off to no end that one of the guardians of those rights is the very same idiots...

No I'm pissed because of the threat your mission and the stupid shortsightedness guiding it poses to my family, community and me.

Funney thing about the TIT eyeball, even soldiers pay taxes, so guys like you will not have anything to whine about.....

Like I said put your money where your mouth is, not mine. Buy, and sell, your own damned war bonds.

You have never supported any soldier, airmen , sailor....you have said repeatedly that you do not support anything about the military, so lets not start now,...... i must have struck a cord, for you to get this worked up.....

That's pure crap. I've most certainly supported having a strong defence, even a nuclear arsenal.

It's the offensive use of our military that offends me. Why shouldn't I get worked up when you misrepresent what I say and outright make shit up. You remind me of the politicians who tell us why we have to go to war.

Edited August 12, 2015 by eyeball

[GostHacked]

No we did not, but then again what was the last conflict that the citizens voted on in Canada.

I did not confuse , take a look at what the media was saying, what canadians were saying about the mission during the early years....and i do think there is s direct link to the amount of people that showed up at 3 am to see us off , with the support for the mission, i remember my last tour the only ones that showed up were family, maybe a few supporters.

That's kind of my point, Canadians do not get to decide to send their men and women overseas for combat tours of duty. The politicians backed by corporate interests and money kings are the ones who make the decisions for us. To make my previous point clearer, if the government believes, I mean really believes in the mission, they should be the first ones to sign up and be on the front lines. But we do not see that. No.

Canadian soldiers did not need to die in Afghanistan. Supporting the troops is different from supporting the mission.

[Rue]

Harper was legally allowed to send troops to Afghanistan. He was not required to hold a referendum or get your permission. You have the right to vote for Justin or Mulcair though and turn our country into puff pastry You know that,

I also believe for what its worth your being anti war does notautomatically mean you are anti troops and no one with a sane mind would think that. I don't recall you insulting any soldier.

I think you are misguided with terrorists but your hating war for God's sakes is commendable. How can it not be? .

I have no time of day for the drug Lords in Afghanistan andthe country's corupt leader.

I do tyhink the Afghani Mujahadeen that morphed into a new entity with Al Quaeda and Taliban was the result of a series of miscommunications, cross cultural misreadings, poor judgement and intelligence.

Sometimes the US became very myopic in its cold war with the Soviets allowing it to cloud its judgement as to who it forms alliances with. I criticize for example its alliances with Pinochet, Samosa, Karsi, Hussein and now Iran.

However all countries in hindsight get into bed with tyrants. How long ago was Trudeau kissing Robert Mugabe's butt? Please all counties do what is in their best interests and support at times questionable people. The US is not alone doing that.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Rue

[CITIZEN_2015]

I haven't read all the posts in this thread but few, but as far as I believe, Afghanistan was under a very brutal completely backwards Taliban regime for years with its population suffering enormously especially women beaten, raped, deprived from schools even basic rights as humans and at least initially I was very happy to see the Coalition invasion but later cool off to the idea when I started seeing body bags coming back especially Canadian ones. I said to myself let them take care of their own problems.

Edited August 12, 2015 by CITIZEN_2015

[jacee]

Come on Jacee they are not that personal, I never said that, i said at the beginning there was a majority of support, most canadians were excited about a combat mission...

No they don't always listen, but when you get enough voices, they do, i remember a Ottawa university professor who got on the national media about Canadian soldiers abusing POW's, within days this very topic became a major political debate in the house so much so that a major investigation was carried out...it was eventually proven false, but the point is this was one man, one voice that stopped a nation in its tracks.....

look at history it is full of examples of people using their voices to make change , Dr Martin Luther King, the public out cry to end the vietnam war....all these changes were made because the citizens wanted them and they did something about them...

Yes I know all of that army guy. Been doing all of that for a long time!!

Sometimes with some success. ?

And I think there's some value in eye ball's suggestion that soldiers get politically active too, require some indication from Canadians that they support military missions ... beyond politicians' support.

Some of them stand to benefit financially or politically (Harper) by putting our soldiers in harm's way. So maybe some of the decision making should be taken out of their hands.

Maybe Canadians should be able to hear the voices of soldiers who've been through it.

But I think you've been silenced, have no voice in the decision making.

The thing about soldiering (and policing), is that a lot of money and time and training goes into it, but the very best possible outcome is if that none of that ever has to get used at all!

But those who profit from war and conflict will never tolerate that!!

Nor will the politicians they own.

Neither of those groups should be trusted to make decisions that put soldiers in harm's way, imo.

.

Edited August 13, 2015 by jacee

[Rue]

A soldier while serving can not be political Jacee. There must be a seperation between personal political opinion and the job and I think Soldiers are neutral organs of the state. They can exercise an option not to follow an order if they think its wrong and face a court martial process where it will be decided whether their refusal was justified or not but armed forces are not democratic. They could not run if soldiers only did what they agreed with.

That said if a soldier takes pride in his mission and says so, he is allowed. Its good for morale. Its not more complicated then that.

Arm Guy is not silenced. There is an appropriate place for him one day to express his opinions outside his job. What he can say on this forum is done because he's anonymous. Its legal. If he published his name then it would not be even if he supports the mission he is talking about.

Soldiers know there is a time and place to express their opinions. Don't portray them as silenced. They are not. They just are not in a job because of state security reasons that allow them the liberty you think they should have. Virtually any expression of a soldier could compromise the safety of another soldier or an operation. Is that being silenced? No its called practical reality and the limits that come with service. Police can't just shoot off their mouths and get involved in politics either. Certain positions including any civil service position have such rules.

It is ridiculous let alone naive to think soldiers can be political while serving in the military. Can you at least try wrap your head around what a soldier does and how that would break down the chain of command and compromise safety.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Rue

[jacee]

You are misinterpreting or miscomprehending as usual, Rue.

I repeat: I think there's some value worthy of consideration in the suggestion that decisions about putting soldiers in harm's way should go to a referendum.

Political and financial leaders are in a conflict of interest in those decisions.

I also don't think it's appropriate to refer to soldiers as "organs of the state".

The 'state' exists to serve and protect the people.

We pay them.

They answer to us.

Would we have sent soldiers to Afghanistan if we knew that Harper's dictatorship majority government was going to distespect them and wasn't going to take proper care of them when they came home damaged and injured?! ?

.

Edited August 13, 2015 by jacee

[eyeball]

I said to myself let them take care of their own problems.

Isn't that what the US government said after the Taliban defeated the commies for us?

[Army Guy]

That's kind of my point, Canadians do not get to decide to send their men and women overseas for combat tours of duty. The politicians backed by corporate interests and money kings are the ones who make the decisions for us. To make my previous point clearer, if the government believes, I mean really believes in the mission, they should be the first ones to sign up and be on the front lines. But we do not see that. No.

Canadian soldiers did not need to die in Afghanistan. Supporting the troops is different from supporting the mission.

I think one of the reasons Afghanistan was so popular was, it was one of the few times we as soldiers could make a difference on the ground, what i mean by that is during the countless UN missions we were there to watch, record and report, by the time New york came back with a confirmed yes or no to taking action the problem was done....

And even then it was recorded and reported,we were told do not engage..it was frustrating beyond believe to take all that training, and build up for the mission only to be told you could only watch it happen and do nothing....the early years inYugo was the worst for this the bad guys would get very brazen by executing civilians in front of us, and telling us it will continue until you leave....so here is a fully armed Canadian soldier with all the training he needed to save or take lives, reduced to filming it all, hoping one day those responsible will face the courts...some did but most got away with murder....

Peace keeping mission under NATO were very different, we got to help the civilians, we made a difference, the bad guys hide in fear because they knew we would engage them when ever we had the chance....where there was no law we became the law, and we gained back the civilians respect ....

So when Afghan came to existence soldiers wanted to go over....to make a difference, not for oil, or resources as some have claimed, but to make a difference, it is what we do....and we did that in spades....and we continued that until the day we left, those that died did so because they wanted to be part of that mission ...that and the fact that the mission had for many years been ours, we were making a difference without the support from the people of Canada....it had become our mission.....and we did not want it to fail....atleast not because of our efforts...

[Army Guy]

Yes I know all of that army guy. Been doing all of that for a long time!!

Sometimes with some success.

And I think there's some value in eye ball's suggestion that soldiers get politically active too, require some indication from Canadians that they support military missions ... beyond politicians' support.

Some of them stand to benefit financially or politically (Harper) by putting our soldiers in harm's way. So maybe some of the decision making should be taken out of their hands.

Maybe Canadians should be able to hear the voices of soldiers who've been through it.

But I think you've been silenced, have no voice in the decision making.

The thing about soldiering (and policing), is that a lot of money and time and training goes into it, but the very best possible outcome is if that none of that ever has to get used at all!

But those who profit from war and conflict will never tolerate that!!

Nor will the politicians they own.

Neither of those groups should be trusted to make decisions that put soldiers in harm's way, imo.

.

then i say thank you for your efforts, i personally think your one of the minority of Canadians that does take actions, and use your rights to make change....however most Canadians are not like that, they take what ever they are served up, and they are content to bitch and whine about it....this frustrates me to no end, as i had long ago thought i could best serve my country by becoming a soldier, and be an instrument in change, hopeful for the good.....i could not be one of those that sit down and bitches and whines and watches life pass us by....

I think there is a huge misconception that our soldiers serve Canadian citizens at their pleasure, and while it has some merit, not true all of the time, the military is a tool in the government toolbox , we serve to protect Canadian interest home and abroad, meaning we could be used again'st the population if that is required, in Canada's best interests, history is full of examples, FLQ crisses, in Quebec after native land claims got to violent....

and while the rules of engagement are very different, they do not preclude the use of force, or deadly force on our citizens...now we are talking about Canada here and not some middle eastern nation, it would take a major incident to start using heavy wpns on the population.....but as it sits right now we are controlled by the government not Canadian citizens.....

As for our soldiers talking about conflicts we have been, but the citizens have brushed most of that aside and confused it with government pre paid programing, Don't forget most troops supported our mission in Afghanistan, and although we were putting our lives in danger, we thought the risk was worth the effort.....soldiers have long been able to speak to the media, when the chain of command approves, as long as that soldier does not talk about anything political, or out of his prevue of experience or knowledge. he can talk about his experiences, or trade knowledge but that is it.....

I agree with you totally it would be nice for a soldier or policemen to never have to use training to commit violence.....perhaps one day, but in todays world reality is some thing else.....no shortage of people that want to do us harm....

Then who's job is it going to be....the same citizens who allowed their military to spend 10 years in Afghanistan. they same group who can not even bother to vote, let alone take action on policies they don't like.....your not giving me a warm and fuzzy .....