Education Over Expulsion At Dalhousie

[Argus]

This issue is no longer about the female students mentioned in the posts.

Riiight. They're pushed to the side, their wishes ignored, because the indignant, politically correct agitators see a chance to make political hay from a couple of jokes a few students made.

Boy, I guess it's too bad there wasn't some actual violence done, eh, so the perpetually self-righteous set could be even more eloquent about the miserable state of the poor, downtrodden college woman.

Edited December 25, 2014 by Argus

[Big Guy]

There is a difference what people say to each other in confidence and what statements are meant to be public. I do not think that what these young men sent to each other was meant to be read by anyone else but those in that small group. Their problem, and a few on this board, is that they did not understand that anything sent on the Internet should be considered public information.

As to what they were thinking, they obviously did not anticipate that their communications would be disclosed and opined accordingly. The motivator could range from anything from drunk to bravado to both. We should not condemn people for what they feel are personal conversations. We have no right to condemn people for what they think and choose not to share with the public.

During my professional life there were conversations that I had with personal friends that would have ended in my dismissal if they became public. I can guarantee that everyone on this board is in the same position. We have learned to be selective in what we post and even hide our identities.

The idea of violence against anybody is abhorrent. The idea of violence specifically directed against women is unhealthy thinking. When the locker room ramblings of these students became public many people were offended. Any person has the right to be offended by what they read. Each person has their own sensibilities and standards and has the right to express them - and their concerns and condemnations should be respected.

No healthy adult would agree with what these students thought was a joke between friends. That should be obvious.

Unfortunately, this issue becomes just another convenient club for some posters to hit other posters with and vice versa.

It is ironic that the maturity shown by some here is not dissimilar to that shown by these testosterone enhanced and misguided dental students.

[Derek 2.0]

Back to the topic:

A few facts of the dental profession and leadership in Canada:

• It remains a white male bastion.
• The deans of all ten faculties of dentistry in Canada are men
• Of the 18 directors of the Canadian Dental Association, only one is a woman.
• There are no people of colour on the CDA board
• Many dentists reacted angrily to a July 2013 online post in the Journal of the CDA calling for greater diversity in the leadership of the profession - One dentist argued that rather than worry about diversity, CDA leaders should limit the number of graduates to promote greater profitability for working dentists.

Odd that, but much of that could be applied inversely to nursing.......none the less, my wife is a member of both the CDA and CAO......The CAO currently has a women President, several women regional directors (one of Asian decent) and other women in senior positions on various committees ....

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With the OP, I think this is the more reasonable outcome since the only "crimes committed" were very poor taste......if the female students that were offended feel satisfied and the male students are given a second chance, I fail to see the issue......

[Argus]

With the OP, I think this is the more reasonable outcome since the only "crimes committed" were very poor taste......if the female students that were offended feel satisfied and the male students are given a second chance, I fail to see the issue......

The issue is the man-haters want to use this as a club to beat men with - again - as they do whenever any example of 'disrespectful' male behaviour comes to light. Men say a lot of nasty things when together. In fact, men tend to insult their closest friends a lot, often as a greeting! But it's not meant seriously and all involved know it. The women out there simply don't understand that the things men say are not always an indication of what they think and who they are.

[jacee]

With the OP, I think this is the more reasonable outcome since the only "crimes committed" were very poor taste......if the female students that were offended feel satisfied ...

That remains to be seen.

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Edited December 25, 2014 by jacee

[Argus]

It remains a white male bastion. [/size][/font][/color][/background]

]The deans of all ten faculties of dentistry in Canada are men[

Of the 18 directors of the Canadian Dental Association, only one is a woman.

There are no people of colour on the CDA board

]Many dentists reacted angrily to a July 2013 online post in the Journal of the CDA calling for greater diversity in the leadership of the profession - One dentist argued that rather than worry about diversity, CDA leaders should limit the number of graduates to promote greater profitability for working dentists.[/size][/font][/color][/background]

It's funny we never get complaints about the declining number of men in university or the high dropout rate of boys in high school. We never get complaints about the low number of men in a number of professions. Medical school graduation rates by gender are more or less evenly divided by gender, but the number of women is rising and the number of men declining. and that's been the case for years. That goes for dentistry too, where I note half the class under discussion is female.

As to the upper echelons, it's long been noted that men are more competitive while women are more cooperative. Men devote themselves to their careers more than women.

Edited December 25, 2014 by Argus

[cybercoma]

That's okay. I have no respect for self-castrating men who wish they were born women so they didn't have to bathe in guilt and shame every day.

What a misogynistic pile of garbage this post is. Hardly surprising from the poster who's here supporting men's right to have a good laugh about raping and murdering women. The only person who should feel guilt and shame is you for advocating the kind of repugnant idiocy these students engaged in.

[cybercoma]

It's funny we never get complaints about the declining number of men in university

Never? It's a big issue that many universities are trying to address.

Just one example: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10608739/Boys-being-left-behind-as-university-gender-gap-widens.html

But don't let that take away from the ridiculous notion that this is somehow even remotely comparable to violence against women on campuses and the neanderthals who dismiss it.

Edited December 26, 2014 by cybercoma

[Argus]

What a misogynistic pile of garbage this post is. Hardly surprising from the poster who's here supporting men's right to have a good laugh about raping and murdering women. The only person who should feel guilt and shame is you for advocating the kind of repugnant idiocy these students engaged in.

You are acting like a histrionic child, and I have no further interest in your opinions on this matter.

Edited December 26, 2014 by Argus

[Smallc]

Some of you really need to calm down. Was this talk that should have been out in the open? Of course not. Have I observed it from males of all walks of life, not including myself (I can have sex with the only person I want to any time I want to...well...generally, so why should I care about other women)? Constantly. This is normal, behind closed doors male behaviour.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Smallc

[Michael Hardner]

Interestingly, the article linked in the OP is NOT about whether or not the students should have been punished. (It looks like all quoted in the article agrees that they should have been.) The disagreement is about the face-to-face 'restorative justice' approach.

Florizone said many of the affected women came forward, and agreed to proceed with the informal and confidential “restorative justice” process.

I'm generally in favour of a more human and face-to-face approach, if it puts the people involved first (unlike our justice system.).

[jacee]

There is a difference what people say to each other in confidence and what statements are meant to be public. I do not think that what these young men sent to each other was meant to be read by anyone else but those in that small group. Their problem, and a few on this board, is that they did not understand that anything sent on the Internet should be considered public information.

As to what they were thinking, they obviously did not anticipate that their communications would be disclosed and opined accordingly.

Ridiculous.

They posted on Facebook as

Class of DDS 2015 Gentlemen.

They knew it wasn't private.

And I don't think such violent 'jokes' are common among men either, even in private.

...that joked about rating prospective victims for hate-sex, chloroforming women and raping them until they lost consciousness

.

Edited December 28, 2014 by jacee

[Argus]

Ridiculous.

They posted on Facebook as

Class of DDS 2015 Gentlemen.

They knew it wasn't private.

.

Did they? As far as I know, there were only about a dozen of them, so the facebook page only had a dozen members, all of whom knew each other in RL. That's a fairly closed community, and all male. What might have happened is someone on that list didn't have his settings set right, and what they wrote got repeated on their own facebook page to other people.

[Argus]

Some of you really need to calm down. Was this talk that should have been out in the open? Of course not. Have I observed it from males of all walks of life, not including myself (I can have sex with the only person any time I want to...well...generally, so why should I care about other women)? Constantly. This is normal, behind closed doors male behaviour.

That's pretty much been all I've been saying from the get-go. Some people want to read into this that because of what was written (and not written by all, just, presumably, by one or two) they're all evil misogynists and must be forever damned and shunned by society.

There's an interesting concurrence between the rise of female sexual power and open displays of female sexuality and sexually provocative clothing and the rise of the denigration of any hint of publicly expressed male sexual interest or commentary in, on, or about females.

[jacee]

Did they? As far as I know, there were only about a dozen of them, so the facebook page only had a dozen members, all of whom knew each other in RL. That's a fairly closed community, and all male. What might have happened is someone on that list didn't have his settings set right, and what they wrote got repeated on their own facebook page to other people.

Ridiculous. They knew it wasn't private.

.

[jacee]

That's pretty much been all I've been saying from the get-go. Some people want to read into this that because of what was written (and not written by all, just, presumably, by one or two) they're all evil misogynists and must be forever damned and shunned by society.

There's an interesting concurrence between the rise of female sexual power and open displays of female sexuality and sexually provocative clothing and the rise of the denigration of any hint of publicly expressed male sexual interest or commentary in, on, or about females.

This isn't about normal sexual interest, Argus. It's about hate and violence against women:

"that joked about rating prospective victims for hate-sex, chloroforming women and raping them until they lost consciousness ""

Edited December 28, 2014 by jacee

[Smallc]

This isn't about normal sexual interest, Argus. It's about hate and violence against women:

"that joked about rating prospective victims for hate-sex, chloroforming women and raping them until they lost consciousness ""

That is normal male sexual interest. To think otherwise is to be naive. There's a reason that fantasy porn that involves violence is so popular.

[Michael Hardner]

That is normal male sexual interest.

You're using 'normal' to describe some biological imperative, which is arguable as it is. I think 'normal' in terms of socially acceptable behavior is a more conventional use of the word, ie. conforms to "norms".

Under the other definition of "normal", it could be said that murder is normal too.

[Smallc]

You're using 'normal' to describe some biological imperative, which is arguable as it is. I think 'normal' in terms of socially acceptable behavior is a more conventional use of the word, ie. conforms to "norms".

I've never seen the point in pretending that things that do happen actually don't. Murder is an act that harms someone else. Fantasy doesn't.

[Argus]

This isn't about normal sexual interest, Argus. It's about hate and violence against women:

"that joked about rating prospective victims for hate-sex, chloroforming women and raping them until they lost consciousness ""

Hate sex does not mean rape. And men will always joke about their tools if they can find any kind of sexual association with them, whatever those tools are. Firemen make sexual joke about their hoses, cops about their handcuffs. I know an electrician who jokes about nipple shocks and getting the power level just right to feel like a vibrator to a woman. Men are pigs. What can I tell you? Go try and hold back the tides, why don't you?

[Argus]

That is normal male sexual interest. To think otherwise is to be naive. There's a reason that fantasy porn that involves violence is so popular.

Rape is a very popular sexual fantasy for both genders. It's totally accepted that females who fantasize about rape don't really want to be raped. I would think that would apply to men, in general, too.

[Argus]

You're using 'normal' to describe some biological imperative, which is arguable as it is. I think 'normal' in terms of socially acceptable behavior is a more conventional use of the word, ie. conforms to "norms".

Under the other definition of "normal", it could be said that murder is normal too.

When you were a younger guy, did you ever threaten to kill any of your friends? Did they ever threaten to kill you? I'm not talking about a serious threat here. I'm talking about the "I"m gonna kill you, you $%#!" or "You are dead! You are so dead!"

[jacee]

Hate sex does not mean rape.

Chloroform kind of blows away and possibility of 'consent'. It's violence.

And men will always joke about their tools if they can find any kind of sexual association with them, whatever those tools are. Firemen make sexual joke about their hoses, cops about their handcuffs. I know an electrician who jokes about nipple shocks and getting the power level just right to feel like a vibrator to a woman. Men are pigs. What can I tell you? Go try and hold back the tides, why don't you?

How do you still not grasp the concept of consent?

I suspect these perps are likewise cement headed, so I don't think face to face mediation is appropriate. Universities like to hide sex crimes under 'confidential' agreements.

The law & public courts I say.

.

Edited December 28, 2014 by jacee

[jacee]

dp

Edited December 28, 2014 by jacee

[cybercoma]

Argus. It's about hate and violence against women

That is normal male sexual interest.

Rape and abuse is not "normal male sexual interest" any more than pedophilia is a "normal" sexual interest.