2 more liberal MP's gone.

[jacee]

There's a rule against making tasteless jokes?

Yes. Unwelcome sexual comment - aka Sexual harassment - is not a joke.

http://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/policy-preventing-sexual-and-gender-based-harassment/2-identifying-sexual-harassment

Read up.

What boys 'joke' about while comparing their pee pees in the locker room isn't appropriate public comment to a woman ... in a supposedly intelligent discussion of sexual harassment and assault.

One is expected to display more respect and decency ... and maturity.

Are women here supposed to consider whether every word they say can be twisted into some sick sexual innuendo by unsocialized hormonal adolescents?

No ... guys gotta learn that sexual harassment - sexual innuendo in 'jokes' is not appropriate in such contexts.

Apparently you do too, Argus.

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[Argus]

Yes. Unwelcome sexual comment - aka Sexual harassment - is not a joke.

http://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/policy-preventing-sexual-and-gender-based-harassment/2-identifying-sexual-harassment

Read up.

First of all this web site is not bound by Ontario workplace rules. Second, a one-time joke is not harassment. Harassment is generally a continuing stream of unwelcome comments and actions.

Are women here supposed to consider whether every word they say can be twisted into some sick sexual innuendo by unsocialized hormonal adolescents?

Well, it is the internet...

No ... guys gotta learn that sexual harassment - sexual innuendo in 'jokes' is not appropriate in such contexts.

Apparently you do too, Argus.

I'm fairly certain having been a union shop steward and having taken courses and been involved in harassment complaints my knowledge of sexual harassment considerably exceeds that of most people. I'm also fairly certain Charles made it clear that Anybody who posts even the slightest hint of a personal comment will take a vacation

Edited November 15, 2014 by Argus

[jacee]

First of all this web site is not bound by Ontario workplace rules. Second, a one-time joke is not harassment. Harassment is generally a continuing stream of suggestive comments and actions.

Every instance of unwelcome sexual innuendo is a teachable moment.

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[Hal 9000]

First of all, this isn't a leftie or rightie issue. It affects women of all political parties.

And believe it or not, the Canadian workplace does indeed have sexual harassment ocurring against women everyday. I work in the high-tech industry and I see it happening quite often. Women do not report it until it becomes excruciatingly unbearable.

There are many reasons for women not to report these issues. For instance, the perpetrator is a drinking buddy with her manager, or he plays golf with her manager or he is a married man with children and she knows his wife from company parties.

It is difficult for women to get hired in the high-tech industry to begin with, so they don't want to rock the boat. They feel they need to suck it up and take it like a man. When they do get hired, they are likely earning an above average salary and they could perhaps be a single parent so they don't want to jeopardize their way of life. Perpetrators pick their victims very well!

Anyway, to get back on track;

Of course there are sexual harassment issues, and NO, they are not acceptable. That's not the issue that I'm arguing, what I am arguing is that if a woman (or man) really feels as if it's serious enough, they have a responsibility to report it - no matter how tough or embarrassing it might be. I know why women don't report it, we're told why every time we see an article on the news or internet, but if its not reported, what can we do.

I also think that as posters here, we really should differentiate between what might be a minor harassment issue and what could be a very serious case of assault. If we can't do that, then we really can't have any sort of meaningful discussion.

I manage a crew of people and sometimes we are overnight. I make every effort to ensure that the women get every bit of privacy they could want. That includes change rooms and their own hotel room - sometimes the men are 3 or 4 to a room, while the woman gets her own room.

P.S - Sometimes WCR, Jacee, OGfT and cybercoma overreact, but they are friends and I really don't want to see them get in any trouble. I should accept some accountability too - sorry Charles.

[Smallc]

Every instance of unwelcome sexual innuendo is a teachable moment.

.

This is why people just give up. A sense of humour is a valuable thing to develop, as it leads to better personal interactions. Jumping up and down screaming sexual harassment when none is present...doesn't.

[jacee]

Anyway, to get back on track;

Of course there are sexual harassment issues, and NO, they are not acceptable. That's not the issue that I'm arguing, what I am arguing is that if a woman (or man) really feels as if it's serious enough, they have a responsibility to report it - no matter how tough or embarrassing it might be. I know why women don't report it, we're told why every time we see an article on the news or internet, but if its not reported, what can we do.

You probably can't do anything, except support victims rights to address it however works best for them. And sometimes that means having open public discussions of their experiences. Nobody's business but their own.

I also think that as posters here, we really should differentiate between what might be a minor harassment issue and what could be a very serious case of assault. If we can't do that, then we really can't have any sort of meaningful discussion.

We have repeatedly differentiated sexual harassment (a human rights violation), sexual assault and aggravated sexual assault (criminal offences). The law differentiates them too.

All are problems.

All need to be addressed.

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[Hal 9000]

You probably can't do anything, except support victims rights to address it however works best for them. And sometimes that means having open public discussions of their experiences. Nobody's business but their own.

We have repeatedly differentiated sexual harassment (a human rights violation), sexual assault and aggravated sexual assault (criminal offences). The law differentiates them too.

All are problems.

All need to be addressed.

.

Then address them! Don't blame men and an unjust society for victims keeping silent. If a victim thinks they've been wronged bad enough to cause them real distress, come forward and point out the accused. Don't wait 5...10 years, don't make thinly veiled hints, don't ask for anonymity, stand up and say something - it's quite simple...and, it's a victims right!

[jacee]

Then address them! Don't blame men and an unjust society for victims keeping silent. If a victim thinks they've been wronged bad enough to cause them real distress, come forward and point out the accused. Don't wait 5...10 years, don't make thinly veiled hints, don't ask for anonymity, stand up and say something - it's quite simple...and, it's a victims right!

It's nobody's business but their own how victims choose to address their own issues. What YOU can do is support them in however they choose to raise the issues, instead of making demands and denigrating their choices.

As we have seen in the Ghomeshi case, it isn't necessary for victims to go to the police individually. Sometimes it's better for them to create a public discussion that encourages other victims to come forward. Victims don't lay charges: Police do. In that case, police investigation is occurring because of the information that victims (one a man) were brave enough to share publicly.

It's all good.

eta ... Parliament Hill though is another issue since no police force has jurisdiction there. That's a public discussion that definitely needs to happen.

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Edited November 15, 2014 by jacee

[Hal 9000]

It's nobody's business but their own how victims choose to address their own issues. What YOU can do is support them in however they choose to raise the issues, instead of making demands and denigrating their choices.

As we have seen in the Ghomeshi case, it isn't necessary for victims to go to the police individually. Sometimes it's better for them to create a public discussion that encourages other victims to come forward. Victims don't lay charges: Police do. In that case, police investigation is occurring because of the information that victims (one a man) were brave enough to share publicly.

It's all good.

.

If somebody refuses to come forward, then there's really nothing that can be done for them...is there.

As far as the Ghomeshi case goes, if someone had come out 2,3 or 5 years ago, maybe there wouldn't be other victims. Saying "I'll sit and wait for other victims" is not an appropriate way to address the issue.

I'm sure that Ghomeshi's recent victims are thrilled that so many knew about him and chose to stay silent for so long. (sarcasm)

[WestCoastRunner]

A study that was just completed and obtained from the Justice Department's research and statistics division highlights a disturbing statistic that two thirds of sexual assault victims lack confidence in the criminal justice system.

This should provide ample evidence that more needs to be done to address this issue. Some of the highlights from the report:

• More than one-third of those who experienced adult sexual assault reported it to the police or had another person do so.
• 53 per cent of participants stated that they were not confident in the police,
• Three broad themes emerged on making improvements — helping survivors feel safe and comfortable, providing them with information on sexual violence and justice procedures, and adjusting the overall system to ensure things like more timely processing of cases and a better balancing of how victim and suspect are treated.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sexual-assault-victims-lack-confidence-in-justice-system-study-says-1.2836408

[jacee]

If somebody refuses to come forward, then there's really nothing that can be done for them...is there.

As far as the Ghomeshi case goes, if someone had come out 2,3 or 5 years ago, maybe there wouldn't be other victims. Saying "I'll sit and wait for other victims" is not an appropriate way to address the issue.

I'm sure that Ghomeshi's recent victims are thrilled that so many knew about him and chose to stay silent for so long. (sarcasm)

Sarcasm and denigrating victims' choices isn't helpful. Such reactions further discourage victims from coming forward.

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Edited November 15, 2014 by jacee

[WestCoastRunner]

Saying "I'll sit and wait for other victims" is not an appropriate way to address the issue.

You really think victims are saying that to themselves?

[Hal 9000]

Sarcasm and denigrating victims' choices isn't helpful. Such reactions further discourage victims from coming forward.

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Here you go again! I'm not denigrating anything.

Come forward...ask for help...report the violation...put the abuser in jail or out of a job....and help prevent the next harassment or assault. Pay it forward - as you liberals like to say!

Personally, If I got assaulted and found out that everybody knew the person was an abuser, i'd be just as angry at them as i would the abuser. If you're a victim and you stay silent, you're not doing your fellow women any favours.

[Hal 9000]

You really think victims are saying that to themselves?

Subconsiously...Yes!

Why did the trailer park woman take 10 years to tell her story? She waited until Ghpmeshi posted his Facebook plea...Why? How many women were slapped around by Ghomeshi over that 10 years? She was a celebrity, she could've crushed his career 10 years ago...10 years!

I know you'll want to protect her, but her actions...or lack there of, enabled him to get away with his shit for 10 years.

[jacee]

Here you go again! I'm not denigrating anything.

Yes you are. You are denigrating victims' choices of how to deal with their harassment/assault.

It's none of your business HOW they deal with it.

.

[Hal 9000]

Yes you are. You are denigrating victims' choices of how to deal with their harassment/assault.

It's none of your business HOW they deal with it.

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Then don't blame Hal, don't blame society, don't blame Harper and don't blame the police. Staying silent is equal to refusing help...and refusing to help.

[Hal 9000]

I had a superior go to my house (with my roommates) once, my girlfriend was there and he hit on her quite strongly. When she told me about it, I immediately confronted him the next day at work. He fessed up (in private), and had me fired!

Sure, it sucked getting fired, but everybody including his wife and co-workers knows he's a scumbag now.

[jacee]

Then don't blame Hal,

Who the hell is blaming you?

(Except for your own sexual harassment faux pas of course.)

don't blame society, don't blame Harper and don't blame the police. Staying silent is equal to refusing help...and refusing to help.

Victims aren't "staying silent": They're going very public now. That's a good thing.

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[Hal 9000]

Who the hell is blaming you?

(Except for your own sexual harassment faux pas of course.)

Victims aren't "staying silent": They're going very public now. That's a good thing.

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Yes, it's a good thing.....WE AGREE!

BTW, I do forgive you for your outburst last night.

[jacee]

I had a superior go to my house (with my roommates) once, my girlfriend was there and he hit on her quite strongly. When she told me about it, I immediately confronted him the next day at work. He fessed up (in private), and had me fired!

Sure, it sucked getting fired, but everybody including his wife and co-workers knows he's a scumbag now.

Going public ... can be justice in itself, eh?

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[jacee]

Yes, it's a good thing.....WE AGREE!

BTW, I do forgive you for your outburst last night.

Don't be ridiculous.

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[Hal 9000]

Don't be ridiculous.

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It's not ridiculous! You're being too hard on yourself. You deserve to be forgiven.

[On Guard for Thee]

Then don't blame Hal, don't blame society, don't blame Harper and don't blame the police. Staying silent is equal to refusing help...and refusing to help.

What you don't seem to get or choose to ignore in all this is how the system has been so heavily stacked against the victim. This is a little different than going to the police after you have been robbed at gunpoint or had some of your property vandalized. There have been numerous discussion on this recently, one very good one was on CBC's The Current. It featured a retired judge, lawyers, and victims all who have been through cases of sexual harassment. I don't have the link handy but it wouldn't be hard to find. It would curl your hair and hopefully be a bit of an education on the matter to hear their accounts.

[Hal 9000]

I do "get it", I know it's a hard thing to do, but the alternatives are worse. Even if a victim can't get a conviction, they can still out a person and perhaps prevent more abuse.

The system isn't stacked against the victim, it's set to provide the theory of "innocent until proven guilty", but that doesn't mean victims can't or shouldn't come forward.

BTW - people get robbed and guys get beat up every day and have the same burden of proof - that never works in their favour either. Go to a bar in any city in Canada on a weekend and you can witness guys getting shitkicked without any police or charges ever being laid.

[On Guard for Thee]

I do "get it", I know it's a hard thing to do, but the alternatives are worse. Even if a victim can't get a conviction, they can still out a person and perhaps prevent more abuse.

The system isn't stacked against the victim, it's set to provide the theory of "innocent until proven guilty", but that doesn't mean victims can't or shouldn't come forward.

BTW - people get robbed and guys get beat up every day and have the same burden of proof - that never works in their favour either. Go to a bar in any city in Canada on a weekend and you can witness guys getting shitkicked without any police or charges ever being laid.

If you did "get it" you wouldn't make the comparisons you do. For instance I bet if you got "shitkicked" you'd be all too happy to tell the police and to stand up in court and point a finger at whoever the culprit was. I don't know if you have heard of the Rape Shield law but if you study why it was brought in and then how tentatively it has been used since should be a bit of an insight as to why women tend to be afraid to come forwrd.