War Against ISIL

[bush_cheney2004]

Each Paveway GBU-12 laser guided bomb costs about $100,000 U.S. Canada spent $130 million to replenish stores for/after the 2011 Libya campaign, wherein 240 such bombs were expended as reported. Note GBU-12s and drop tank in this asymmetric CF-188 rack load over Iraq:

Edited November 23, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[eyeball]

For Canada? I would estimate once you've removed sunk costs, based on our military action in Libya, several hundred million dollars in additional allocated funding......but of course that depends on the length and continued scope of the mission.

Good thing we're just in it for the mission then, I'd hate to think what it might cost if we were committed to the war.

[Derek 2.0]

Each Paveway GBU-12 laser guided bomb costs about $100,000 U.S. Canada spent $130 million to replenish stores for/after the 2011 Libya campaign, wherein 240 such bombs were expended as reported.

100k seems rather high, both Paveway and JDAM kits are closer to 1/2-1/3rd such figure.......with that said, the referenced Canadian purchase in 2011 was for JDAMs, with only a handful used near the final stages of Operation Mobile, so your 100K per figure could also include introductory costs of adding the JDAM to the RCAF inventory.

[Derek 2.0]

Note GBU-12s and drop tank in this asymmetric CF-188 rack load over Iraq:

To add: An interesting load-out, with the sole AMRAAM.....I guess the newly founded ISIS air force plays into the threat matrix

[bush_cheney2004]

100k seems rather high, both Paveway and JDAM kits are closer to 1/2-1/3rd such figure......

JDAMs are cheaper kits, but you still need a bomb munition to attach it to. It is my understanding that Canada has not deployed JDAMs for Operation Inherent Resolve...yet. That cheaper all weather GPS guidance solution has to be balanced against the need for spotters (drones or forward deployed units). SNIPER designator pods no workee so good in bad weather.

[bush_cheney2004]

To add: An interesting load-out, with the sole AMRAAM.....I guess the newly founded ISIS air force plays into the threat matrix

I would think that the lone AMRAAM would be used to protect other more vulnerable assets. Sidewinders on the tips is a standard configuration. Still, quite a mix !

That photo also is a good shot of CF-188 false canopy.

Edited November 23, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[Derek 2.0]

JDAMs are cheaper kits, but you still need a bomb munition to attach it to. It is my understanding that Canada has not deployed JDAMs for Operation Inherent Resolve...yet. That cheaper all weather GPS guidance solution has to be balanced against the need for spotters (drones or forward deployed units). SNIPER designator pods no workee so good in bad weather.

Canada has no shortage of mk 82s and 84s, I don't know if JDAMs have been deployed or not (or if they will)......based on the the approval in the House to deployment I would guess they haven't, unless we prepositioned some in Kuwait prior........The SNIPER pod no workee in bad weather? Odd, the SNIPER pod is used on everything in your inventory and allowed the A-10s to be reborn an all weather attack aircraft.....I haven't heard anything negative about it in bad weather or night.

[bush_cheney2004]

....Odd, the SNIPER pod is used on everything in your inventory and allowed the A-10s to be reborn an all weather attack aircraft.....I haven't heard anything negative about it in bad weather or night.

My understanding is that the increased laser designator and receiver ranges for SNIPER pods cannot be realized when combined with severe/bad weather. So higher altitudes to avoid MANPAD aircraft losses combined with bad weather could impact effectiveness.

[Derek 2.0]

My understanding is that the increased laser designator and receiver ranges for SNIPER pods cannot be realized when combined with severe/bad weather. So higher altitudes to avoid MANPAD aircraft losses combined with bad weather could impact effectiveness.

It hasn't stopped SNIPER from being installed on the B-1 and B-52H, nor the F-35.......I don't doubt the physics of lasers in bad/humid weather, but it doesn't appear to have effected its employment.......Could you be thinking first-gen LANTIRN?

Of course, the bulk of the Canadian contribution to ISR in Iraq will be from the CP-140(M)s in theater......

[bush_cheney2004]

It hasn't stopped SNIPER from being installed on the B-1 and B-52H, nor the F-35.......I don't doubt the physics of lasers in bad/humid weather, but it doesn't appear to have effected its employment.......Could you be thinking first-gen LANTIRN?

Does Canada have the latest SNIPER ATP variant ?

[Derek 2.0]

Does Canada have the latest SNIPER ATP variant ?

The latest as of ~5-6 years ago.......if there has been any block upgrades, we should get those also, as we've prepaid contractor support into the early 2020s (once the Hornet are replaced by the F-35).

[GostHacked]

Can we stop the war porn crap and get on with the subject at hand?

[Derek 2.0]

Can we stop the war porn crap and get on with the subject at hand?

Both methods of targeting ISIS and costings were asked/brought-up by other members (Big Guy and Eyeball) relating to this topic......we (myself and BC-2000) are discussing the topic at hand....Do you have anything worthwhile to add?

[GostHacked]

Both methods of targeting ISIS and costings were asked/brought-up by other members (Big Guy and Eyeball) relating to this topic......we (myself and BC-2000) are discussing the topic at hand....Do you have anything worthwhile to add?

Discussing what weapons that are used against ISIS ISIL is not focusing on the topic at hand.

[bush_cheney2004]

Both methods of targeting ISIS and costings were asked/brought-up by other members (Big Guy and Eyeball) relating to this topic......we (myself and BC-2000) are discussing the topic at hand....Do you have anything worthwhile to add?

Indeed...perhaps some members think that Canada attacks the enemy with blankets and chocolate hockey pucks. These are the tools of Canada's ISIL killing machines...grow up and deal with it.

[Big Guy]

Get ready for mission creep. It has been reported that the Canadian government is investigating the legality of Canadian planes dropping bombs on the sovereign state of Syria. The USA has just declared to the American people that this latest war ( Iraq 2 or ISIS 1) is costing the American taxpayer about $20 billion a year - at the current rate of involvement.

Our Canadian government is scheduled to reveal our costs tomorrow.

Soon, Canada will have to declare if we are going to continue in our current role, increase our involvement or leave this civil war.

Anyone want to guess which choice Harper is going to make?

We are being played like a fine fiddle.

[Derek 2.0]

Discussing what weapons that are used against ISIS ISIL is not focusing on the topic at hand.

Again, both myself and BC2000 are discussing several direct facets, in detail, that focus on this topic. Neither of us are insulting each other (or anyone else for that mater), we're not attempting to troll/bait other members, nor are we (as far as I know) breaking forum rules. Our focusing in on the costs Canada will pay, likewise the methods employed by the coalition in targeting ISIS from the air, coupled with modern technology utilized in reducing collateral damage are very much on topic......

This will be my last response to you on the mater, as I won't further partake in your attempt to derail and/or bait members in this thread.

[Derek 2.0]

Our Canadian government is scheduled to reveal our costs tomorrow.

Soon, Canada will have to declare if we are going to continue in our current role, increase our involvement or leave this civil war.

Anyone want to guess which choice Harper is going to make?

Based on the Libyan mission, similar in size and scope to the current Canadian mission in Iraq, I expect (based on 6 months to a year in length) this mission will cost several hundred million dollars outside of sunk costs.......As to the Governments response post 6 months, I'd expect the choice to be based on the "climate" within Iraq at that time.

[Big Guy]

It has just been reported that the Syrian government has just made a few air raids on the city of Raqqa, which the Islamic State in Iraq had proclaimed as its capital and have killed about 90 people. About 125 more people were reported to be injured.

The majority of the dead and injured are believed to be civilians, including women and children.

But, you say, this is Assad and his killers not us!

Our government is currently looking at the legality of Canadian planes also going into Syria targeting the same "bad guys". Harper and Assad are fighting against the same "bad" guys. Anybody think that those innocent civilians watching their family members get killed care if it is an Assad plane or a Harper plane?

The "good guys" , Syria's main opposition , the National Coalition, has stated that "There are many among the Syrians who now believe that the Assad regime is believed to be the sole benefactor of the US led coalition airstrikes and it is time to review the strategy against ISIL."

We are being played like a fine, fine fiddle.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Big Guy

[Big Guy]

Update - Assad is complaining that our coalition is not doing a very good job in weakening and wiping out ISIL. Syria's foreign minister has said US led air strikes had failed to weaken the grip of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) in Syria and the group ,would not be tackled unless Turkey was forced to tighten border controls.

Turkey wants a no fly zone in Northern Syria but the rest of the coalition disagrees. Meanwhile Syria's foreign minister has been in talks with Russian President Vladimir Putin and Sergey Lavrov, Russian foreign minister to push to restart peace talks with Syria.

I guess our Canadian effort should be increased and expanded to please Assad and Vladimir Putin.

We are being played like fine fiddle.

BTW - That financial report that our government promised us after the USA presented their costs of this war is not gonna happen. It appears that Harper has changed his mind. I guess the cost of this "expedition" is none of our business.

[Rue]

"We are being played like fine fiddle" (sic). Sounds like something Boris would say to Natasha in a Rockey and Bullwinkle cartoon.

Who is "We"? You express your opinion. Do not try suggest you represent me or any other Canadian. Thanks but WE as in me does not feel like he is "being played like fine fiddle by squirrel and moose".

The funny face is that supposed to mean we have Tourette's Syndrome?

Canada did not go into this latest air war to placate Assad and Putin. They are there because of a show to moderate Muslim regimes they will support them against extremists. This has nothing to do with Assad and Putin and everything to do with Muslim fundamentalist extremism that threatens the stability of moderate Arab regimes that the West is giving a signal to as well as Putin and China.

Canada is not even flying gets into Syria. Its limited to Iraq and strikes against ISIL. No one asked it, nor did it offer to involve itself directly in the Syrian war. But hey why let actual facts get in the way.

[Big Guy]

Seventeen people were killed in Iraq on Saturday in air strikes. Two brothers who were members of the local Albu Hishma tribe were mistakenly killed when an Iraqi military helicopter attacked a house. The village people collected the bodies and proceeded to a funeral. A coalition airstrike then dropped some bombs and killed another 13 in the funeral party - both accounts were verified by an intelligence official.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/11/29/us-mideast-crisis-iraq-idUSKCN0JD0OA20141129

Since we are part of this coalition and currently dropping bombs in Iraq, was this one of our airplane bombings? Why are we not being told what targets we have been hitting? Is this 15 innocent deaths OOPS our fault?

We are being played like a deaf and blind fiddle.

[GostHacked]

"We are being played like fine fiddle" (sic). Sounds like something Boris would say to Natasha in a Rockey and Bullwinkle cartoon.

The 'we' are the collective entity that is 'Canada'.

Canada is not even flying gets into Syria. Its limited to Iraq and strikes against ISIL. No one asked it, nor did it offer to involve itself directly in the Syrian war. But hey why let actual facts get in the way.

They will be soon.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/11/27/with-little-for-canadian-jets-to-do-in-iraq-expanding-mission-to-syria-may-be-next/

[Big Guy]

When ISIL first approached Iraqi troops in June it was reported that the Iraqi army "disintegrated and ran". Now it appears that some of those troops did not exist. Prime Minister Haider al-Abadi has revealed that about 50,000 soldiers or the equivalent of almost four full army divisions existed only on paper.

Apparently somebody began to notice that there were fewer soldiers than were paychecks being distributed. Since the USA and West are the main suppliers of "aid" it seems that officers and government officials are taking advantage by creating "ghost" soldiers and pocketing those paychecks. The inflated numbers also make the USA effort in Iraqi to create an army appear very successful.

The fraud artists are officers and brigade commanders who pocket the paychecks of the fictitious troops.

These are the same officers and brigade commanders who Canadians are helping and protecting by dropping bombs in that civil war.

We are being played like a fine fiddle.

[Rue]

How a fiddle becomes dead a deaf is an interesting phenomena. I had no idea they have ears. Yech imagine if we pulled to hard on their genitilia I mean strings.

In any event, because I love these analogies and could go on for days pulling the organs of a violin let alone a big bass or hey a cello even..and don't get me started with Tubas, well to say Canada is being played is pointless.

No one thinks an air war is anything but a public relations exercise at this point.

Its a too little too late response to a failed Obama policy of arming ISIL with Erdogan to forge a Muslim Brotherhood inspired Middle East. This is the tale end of a failed Obama-Erdogan-Morsi attempt at taking over the Middle East.

Obama has to now in essence admit he has failed in this exercise and its more of a exercise of Saudi Arabia, Egypt, UAE, Kuwait and Jordan spanking his butt and Erdogan's for trying to give them all the finger and forge an alliance without them.

That is what this is about. Having Obama admit he was wrong with this exercise.

Canada and the rest of the coalition are there because they are showing both Iran and the extremist Sunnis they are willing to get involved.

Its a show of force. Nothing else. It won't solve anything.

As Israel, Egypt and Germany all warned the US, siding with either extremist Muslim Brotherhood Sunni or Iranian backed Shiite extremists is equally as dangerous. Obama still has one more petulant move to make and that is try suck up to Iran. That is already failed. The Ayatolah I not so subtle words the last few weeks called for the destruction of Israel and blamed all world ills on the US and Israel and the moderate Sunnis and even through in some not so subtle digs at the EU and India.

Obama is a lame duck. The EU pretty much ignores him and Kerry when negotiating with Iran at this point. In fact its of allpeople Kohn McCain who they are now talking with now that he will be head of the US's most powerful foreign policy committee in charge of its military affairs overseas in January once the majority Senate is elected.

McCain will have as much clout as Obama on military affairs in the Middle East all but crippling the lame duck Obama until the next election and if anyone thinks Hilary will overcome the failure in Libya wait. The revelations over Libya are soon to come.

The question now is does Mitt Romney again run this time against Jeb Bush?

Many think Bush is going to run and use his family network to get in and back we go to the days of George Sr and Jr where the US perceives its two closest allies in the Middle East as Egypt and Saudi Arabia/UAE.