War Against ISIL

[Big Guy]

Have we not been assured that these are NOT "boots on the ground" but non-combat instructors who will have no contact with the "enemy" if/when we figure out who they are?

[eyeball]

My take: The "West" allied itself with the Soviets and Chinese Communists during the Second World War, the Chinese Communists allied themselves with the Vietcong/North Vietnamese Communists and the Americans supplied arms to the Mujahideen to combat the Soviets etc....An enemy of my enemy is my friend is a geopolitical reality....

There is a vast difference between courting dubious allies when your own back's against a wall during wartime and deliberately overthrowing democracies in favour of dictatorships or supporting warlords to fight your wars for convenience's sake during peacetime.

Pretending it's all the same is worse than peeing on a Cenotaph 7 days a week and twice on Sundays.

Edited to add: way worse...I'd have no issues at all with calling this behaviour a crime against humanity.

Edited November 8, 2014 by eyeball

[bush_cheney2004]

....Edited to add: way worse...I'd have no issues at all with calling this behaviour a crime against humanity.

Good call....that's why Canada is over there bombing the bad guys.

[Derek 2.0]

There is a vast difference between courting dubious allies when your own back's against a wall during wartime and deliberately overthrowing democracies in favour of dictatorships or supporting warlords to fight your wars for convenience's sake during peacetime.

Pretending it's all the same is worse than peeing on a Cenotaph 7 days a week and twice on Sundays.

Edited to add: way worse...I'd have no issues at all with calling this behaviour a crime against humanity.

How dramatic!!!! I fail to see the difference in the geopolitical landscape.........The World economy and energy security is as important today as it was during the 1930s and 1940s........Hitler and Tojo didn't invade North Africa, the Caucasus and Java for shits and giggles.......

[jbg]

My take: The "West" allied itself with the Soviets and Chinese Communists during the Second World War, the Chinese Communists allied themselves with the Vietcong/North Vietnamese Communists and the Americans supplied arms to the Mujahideen to combat the Soviets etc....An enemy of my enemy is my friend is a geopolitical reality....

What alternative do you have? Put all Western men between 17 and 45 under arms? If you don't use proxies what else can you do?

[Argus]

What alternative do you have? Put all Western men between 17 and 45 under arms? If you don't use proxies what else can you do?

What NATO needs, or even what the US needs, is a foreign legion. Our delicate citizenry gets much less upset when foreigners die in a good cause, as the French have long realized. The US could easily put together a foreign legion, staff it with a few retired US Army types as advisors, and employ it on the ground around the world anyplace where they're afraid to send their own troops for fear they'll be kidnapped and used as pawns.

[Derek 2.0]

What NATO needs, or even what the US needs, is a foreign legion. Our delicate citizenry gets much less upset when foreigners die in a good cause, as the French have long realized. The US could easily put together a foreign legion, staff it with a few retired US Army types as advisors, and employ it on the ground around the world anyplace where they're afraid to send their own troops for fear they'll be kidnapped and used as pawns.

There is no need for such a force........What the collective West needs is political capital to expend on such ventures, of course such capital is granted by the citizenry........

[eyeball]

What the west needs is a hard-assed citizenry that's proud of the root causes that makes so many people hate it.

[bush_cheney2004]

Yeah...so many people hate it, they want to emigrate !!

[eyeball]

Notwithstanding the immigrants that hate emigrants.

[eyeball]

Syrian planes bomb northern town, killing 21 - monitor

At least 21 people were killed and around 100 wounded overnight when Syrian army planes bombed a town in northern Syria controlled by Islamic State militants, a group monitoring the war said on Sunday.

Our ally one minute.

Since the U.S.-led forces started strikes on Syria more than a month ago, Syria's military has ramped up its own air raids, concentrating on the west of the country and at times targeting territory held by Western-backed rebel fighters.

Our enemy the next.

[Rue]

Eyeball the absurdity you see being played out is precisely why Israel and Egypt are sitting this out and want nothing to do with Obama.

This absurdity you see is the direct result of the Obama foreign policy.

Obama committed himself to the Muslim Brotherhood. He felt by pushing their agenda and in an alliance with Erdogan and Morsi, he could run the Middle East and be loved by Muslims.

He was warned repeatedly this would not work and he chose to ignore the Egyptians, Israelis and Germans to name but 3 countries whose intelligence networks cautioned the US not to get into bed with either side.

Obama is an idiot. This notion he an Erdogan could create a Muslim Sunni army to do their bidding in Libya and Syria while at the same time sucking up to Iran and a Shiite puppet in Iraq is the root cause of this absurd situation.

Egypt and Israel the two most important allies of the US in the Middle East sit on the sidelines waiting for a new President all but having given up on Obama.

I believe who ever the next American President is, particularly if its a Republican which seems very likely given the mid election backlash against Obama, her/she will try distance themselves from Obama by doing something with a bang early on to distinguish and detach themselves from his agenda.

I can not see the next US President allowing Putin to humiliate them as Obama did or the US continuing to flip and flop in the Middle East.

China has moved in replacing the US as an alternative superpower protector of Egypt and Israel .

The Middle East is due for more absurdity until Obama leaves.

Obama thought he could keep the US out of world conflicts and ironically he has done more to expose the US to disasterous conflicts then say the military hawks Bush Sr., Nixon or Reagan ever did.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Rue

[Argus]

There is no need for such a force........What the collective West needs is political capital to expend on such ventures, of course such capital is granted by the citizenry........

If one marine gets kidnapped it becomes a national crisis. The US political elites are terrified of things like that, which restricts them from doing things which really do need to get done. If there was a foreign legion the US could employ it in places like Iraq to take care of business, and not worry too much about domestic political problems when some of them get killed, or even kidnapped.

[Big Guy]

To Derek 2.0 - regarding no need for an external force for the American military. I understand that there were at least 100,000 mercenaries in Iraq and paid by the USA. They were called "military contractors" but were financed on the books as "aid" for Iraq. They were not constrained by any military code and certainly were not counted as "troops" when reporting to the public.

I have no doubt that there are already many "military contractors" back in Northern Iraq doing targeting for the air war. I also have no doubt that the Canadian military has also employed this kind of "work force" and written the cost off as "foreign aid".

It would be interesting to find out how many American, British and Canadian soldiers, having served a few deployments intro the Middle East wars, retire early and come back under the employ of "private military contractors", doing the same thing they did before but with little restriction and a lot, lot more money.

[Derek 2.0]

If one marine gets kidnapped it becomes a national crisis. The US political elites are terrified of things like that, which restricts them from doing things which really do need to get done. If there was a foreign legion the US could employ it in places like Iraq to take care of business, and not worry too much about domestic political problems when some of them get killed, or even kidnapped.

Uncle Sam's Misguided Children have been deploying overseas in times of national crisis for centuries, doing the things that really need doing, and losing members doing it......there is no requirement for another (American) force, but civilian leadership willing to utilize the military when needed.....

[Derek 2.0]

To Derek 2.0 - regarding no need for an external force for the American military. I understand that there were at least 100,000 mercenaries in Iraq and paid by the USA. They were called "military contractors" but were financed on the books as "aid" for Iraq. They were not constrained by any military code and certainly were not counted as "troops" when reporting to the public.

The vast majority of said contractors were little more than armed security guards, trainers/instructors, drivers, engineers and tradesmen.....

I have no doubt that there are already many "military contractors" back in Northern Iraq doing targeting for the air war. I also have no doubt that the Canadian military has also employed this kind of "work force" and written the cost off as "foreign aid".

There are indeed already (several thousand) contractors employed by the Iraqi Government as security guards (for VIPs), instructors for the Iraqi military and providing (technical) support to the Government....."Targeting for the air war" is provided by Allied military special forces, not contractors.

[Rue]

What NATO needs, or even what the US needs, is a foreign legion. Our delicate citizenry gets much less upset when foreigners die in a good cause, as the French have long realized. The US could easily put together a foreign legion, staff it with a few retired US Army types as advisors, and employ it on the ground around the world anyplace where they're afraid to send their own troops for fear they'll be kidnapped and used as pawns.

Uncle Sam's Misguided Children have been deploying overseas in times of national crisis for centuries, doing the things that really need doing, and losing members doing it......there is no requirement for another (American) force, but civilian leadership willing to utilize the military when needed.....

I think Argus and you are both correct. The US is afraid of the political consequences of another ground war because of the past ground wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the strain it has caused to the American economy.

It also reflects Obama's own foreign policy beliefs of pulling the US off the world stage as world leader and his open disdain for the American military establishment.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Rue

[Derek 2.0]

I think Argus and you are both correct. The US is afraid of the political consequences of another ground war because of the past ground wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the strain it has caused to the American economy.

It also reflects Obama's own foreign policy beliefs of pulling the US off the world stage as world leader and his open disdain for the American military establishment.

I don't doubt President Obama, like other Western leaders, will be reluctant for generations to commit to another large scale ground war and counter insurgency........with that said, I don't think that we (as in the West) should, but revert to the method employed to great success by the British: Gunboat diplomacy, combined with providing the locals with more technical support and training, so as to avoid the on the ground footprint...

[Rue]

Derek I agree 100% I may harass you over the F35 but out of respect. . I believe we need a strong US presence in the Middle East.

While I do not think the air war is effective, I agree with it. I think eventually we shall see the 5 eyes, Britain, Aus, NZ, Can and the US send more advisors on the ground (they have already who we kidding) and no doubt the Egyptians, Saudis and Israelis are doing something as well.

Weall agree a conventional army on the ground won't do much.

I would suspect as we speak special forces may be examining ways to take out the leaders of ISIL, etc.

I have stated numerous times you can't defang the terrorist cells with conventional armies. You need very small, fast moving specially trained commando units of no more than 30 men or so moving in and out quickly from the site or people they take out.

The British and Americans alone have SAS and the SEALS and other specialized quick moving units. I am sure their role will be kept invisible for obvious reasons.

ISIL I predict will splinter but reincarnate in other forms.

We have a stalemate between 3 heads of the snake, Sunni extremist, Shiite extremist, and Sunni monarchy. The one common enemy Israel that kept them from each other no longer be relied on.

I also fear the US has made a deal with the Russians to bomb Syria in return for staying silent on Ukraine.

I would not put that past Putin one bit.

[Derek 2.0]

Derek I agree 100% I may harass you over the F35 but out of respect. . I believe we need a strong US presence in the Middle East.

While I do not think the air war is effective, I agree with it.

Its already forced ISIS into a reactionary role, now forcing ISIS to travel and operate in smaller unit sizes and relinquishing the use of heavier weapons.

Weall agree a conventional army on the ground won't do much.

That's not so, a conventional army made-up of effective locals is exactly what is needed.......look no further then the reduction of size of the British Army in Northern Ireland in the latter 80s and early 90s, replaced by a strengthened RUC.

I have stated numerous times you can't defang the terrorist cells with conventional armies. You need very small, fast moving specially trained commando units of no more than 30 men or so moving in and out quickly from the site or people they take out.

Again that is not so, an effective conventional force is required to provide both security and presence, special forces of course compliment such a force.

The British and Americans alone have SAS and the SEALS and other specialized quick moving units. I am sure their role will be kept invisible for obvious reasons.

Elements of CSOR/JTF-2 have been there for approaching several months now........such forces largest contribution though is providing training to the locals.

[GostHacked]

If one marine gets kidnapped it becomes a national crisis. The US political elites are terrified of things like that, which restricts them from doing things which really do need to get done. If there was a foreign legion the US could employ it in places like Iraq to take care of business, and not worry too much about domestic political problems when some of them get killed, or even kidnapped.

They have alreay tried that. Can the Muhajedeen be considered a foreign legion??

[WWWTT]

The war against ISIL to many is part of what is called perpetual war.

http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13930825001416

After all, when the enemy is defeated, war is over.

Got to keep that enemy kicking hard, and what better way to do it than making them strong!

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Lots more links to change the direction of this debate!

Looks like the US could be arming ISIL!

http://falastinews.com/2014/11/16/watch-u-s-giving-weapons-directly-to-isis-hands/

WWWTT

[Derek 2.0]

Lots more links to change the direction of this debate!

Looks like the US could be arming ISIL!

http://falastinews.com/2014/11/16/watch-u-s-giving-weapons-directly-to-isis-hands/

WWWTT

Odd that the video in your link shows a man opening crates of Soviet grenades:

I suppose they could be from the stores of former Soviet client states, now members of NATO, and that (as mentioned in your link) were lost during a supply drop.......If true, I fail to see how this changes the direction of the debate.

[WWWTT]

Nope sorry. Neither of the grenades that are clearly visible looks like the one you have shown.

Furthermore there are other weapons. As well I posted another link, each in support of the other.

WWWTT