War Against ISIL

[Michael Hardner]

Alas, the Americans have not learned from the Canadians...'tis humanitarian aid (e.g. blankets) that will win the day.

Once in awhile, you have to admit that you have failed. This is requirement for both Americans AND Canadians, if they like to live in reality.

[bush_cheney2004]

Once in awhile, you have to admit that you have failed. This is requirement for both Americans AND Canadians, if they like to live in reality.

Failed at what ? Is Saddam still ruling Iraq ? Did Canada "fail" in Afghanistan or Libya ? Please be more specific....

[Michael Hardner]

Failed at what ?

Achieving all of your goals ?

Is Saddam still ruling Iraq ?

No.

Did Canada "fail" in Afghanistan or Libya ?

We're not sure yet.

[bush_cheney2004]

Achieving all of your goals ?

No.

We're not sure yet.

All of whose goals ? Did those Iraq War goals include civil war in Syria ? How would blankets have changed the outcome ?

[Michael Hardner]

All of whose goals ?

Whomever we're talking about at the time.

Did you get 100% of your goals for last week done ? Of course not. No reason to feel bad about it, or feel all defensive unless they're obvious goals, eg. not driving drunk/naked again...

Did those Iraq War goals include civil war in Syria ?

I... don't think so ?

How would blankets have changed the outcome ?

You brought up blankets, not me. If you didn't achieve your goals then you can say so without bringing me into it for some reason.

[bush_cheney2004]

Whomever we're talking about at the time.

Did you get 100% of your goals for last week done ? Of course not. No reason to feel bad about it, or feel all defensive unless they're obvious goals, eg. not driving drunk/naked again...

But I did get 100% of my "goals" done....didn't you ? What seems to be the problem ? As a matter of fact, I exceeded my goals by quite a bit.

....You brought up blankets, not me. If you didn't achieve your goals then you can say so without bringing me into it for some reason.

It's not about you or me....and I have adopted "blankets" as a very efficient way to mock the leader of Canada's natural ruling party on this issue (and others yet to come)*. Wars are won with blankets !

* - noted in case it isn't obvious enough.

Edited October 14, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[dre]

And we know what worked and what didn't........American troops policing Iraqis........Frankly, post invasion, the biggest mistake the Americans made was the disbanding of the Iraqi army.

Nothing worked... the insurgency is still there. The only thing that achieved even superficial success was cutting all these people paychecks. But all that did was delay. As soon as US troops left and the Iraqi government stopped making out checks the insurgency resumed.

And the same thing will happen again... because there is an underlying problem in the region that we simply cannot fix. We will only make it worse.

Dont believe me? Wait and see. But lets at least bookmark some of these posts so we can go back to them when every single thing Im predicting happens.

Iraq seems to be on about an 11/12 year cycle. 1991, then 2003, now 2014. That would put us having this same conversation again in about 2026.. because this idiotic misadventure will fail in just as epic a fassion as the last one.

[Derek 2.0]

Dont believe me? Wait and see. But lets at least bookmark some of these posts so we can go back to them when every single thing Im predicting happens.

Iraq seems to be on about an 11/12 year cycle. 1991, then 2003, now 2014. That would put us having this same conversation again in about 2026.. because this idiotic misadventure will fail in just as epic a fassion as the last one.

Again, what would you predict if a regional war broke out in the Middle East? With that said, ~20 years out, the net effects of such a war could be less on the global economy........

[Michael Hardner]

But I did get 100% of my "goals" done....didn't you ?

I don't put goals in quotation marks so... I'm not sure.

I try to get a certain number of things done in a day, but I set my goals higher. Maybe not as high as establishing a democratic state in the middle east but high enough to fail on a daily basis.

As a matter of fact, I exceeded my goals by quite a bit.

Under promise, over deliver.

It's not about you or me....and I have adopted "blankets" as a very efficient way to mock the leader of Canada's natural ruling party on this issue (and others yet to come)*.

But bringing Canada into it is as obsessive and unnecessary as bringing America into our healthcare discussion.

[bush_cheney2004]

I don't put goals in quotation marks so... I'm not sure.

See...that's where you and I differ...I am very sure. I exceeded professional and personal goals last week. Doing pretty good this week too.

I try to get a certain number of things done in a day, but I set my goals higher. Maybe not as high as establishing a democratic state in the middle east but high enough to fail on a daily basis.

Under promise, over deliver.

I am pretty sure that Iraq has a new type of government that has more democracy than Saddam and his two sons watching porn all day.

But bringing Canada into it is as obsessive and unnecessary as bringing America into our healthcare discussion.

Noted, but you are off base in this instance, as Canada has engaged the ISIL challenge with military force...and blankets. I might reconsider if you could promise that America would not be dragged into Canadian topics, but of course, that is highly unlikely.....no....impossible.

Edited October 14, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[dre]

So, in your mind, leaving ISIS, with the possibility of a much larger regional war between Shia/Sunni/Kurds/Turks etc, is the better option? And what would, in your view such chaos do to Middle East oil exports that the World economy is dependent upon?

A dust-up between shia and sunnis is a forgone conclusion. And our involvement wont make is LESS likely, it will make it MORE likely. If anything, watching Foreign troops try to keep sunnis under the jackboots of an Allawite minority in Syria and an Iranian proxy in Iraq will be the straw that broke the cammels back for the 20+ million Sunnis in Iraq and Syria.

[Derek 2.0]

Has ISIS gotten a hold of some Iraqi Syrian Mustard Gas?

The MERIA Journal report noted that the type of chemical agent used on the Kurdish fighters in Kobane has been verified by its Israeli experts, who after analysing the blisters formed on the bodies on several Kurdish soldiers found that it was caused by mustard gas.

The bodies of three Kurdish fighters showed no signs of damage from bullets. Rather "...burns and white spots on the bodies of the dead indicated the use of chemicals, which led to death without any visible wounds or external bleeding," said Kurdish health minister Nisan Ahmed.

I think, unlike Assad, threats of Western military action (combined with pressure from Putin/Russia) won't deter ISIS from using chemical weapons on other, larger populations.......If they have a largish arsenal of chemical weapons, this could will get very ugly....

[Derek 2.0]

A dust-up between shia and sunnis is a forgone conclusion. And our involvement wont make is LESS likely, it will make it MORE likely. If anything, watching Foreign troops try to keep sunnis under the jackboots of an Allawite minority in Syria and an Iranian proxy in Iraq will be the straw that broke the cammels back for the 20+ million Sunnis in Iraq and Syria.

Our involvement has kept a lid on open warfare (in the Gulf) between varying states a reality since 1990......and has kept the oil flowing.

[dre]

Again, what would you predict if a regional war broke out in the Middle East? With that said, ~20 years out, the net effects of such a war could be less on the global economy........

Those predictions are kind of irrelevant given the fact that we dont have the ability to stop it anyways, and we are likely if anything to make it worse.

[dre]

Has ISIS gotten a hold of some Iraqi Syrian Mustard Gas?

I think, unlike Assad, threats of Western military action (combined with pressure from Putin/Russia) won't deter ISIS from using chemical weapons on other, larger populations.......If they have a largish arsenal of chemical weapons, this could will get very ugly....

Oh jeez.... here we go.

[Big Guy]

Our involvement has kept a lid on open warfare (in the Gulf) between varying states a reality since 1990......and has kept the oil flowing.

I have posted the following in another thread but it may be appropriate here;

I have been critical of Canadian involvement in this latest Crusade into the Middle East but it is easy to criticize without having alternative suggestions. In my research on this topic I have come upon two analysis with which I agree completely, surprisingly they are published in the same paper.

Tony Burman represents most of what I believe on the roles of Canada and Turkey, the failure of US strategy and that the solution will have to be arrived at by Arabs with politics and not bombs;

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2014/10/11/five_lessons_from_the_war_against_islamic_state_burman.html

Lawrence Wilson was US Secretary of State Colin Powells chief of staff. I believe that he has a permanent solution to the complicated conflicts in the Area. He supports the controversial theory that the key is Iran and that the attitude of the West to Iran will have to change drastically;

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2014/10/11/the_right_way_to_fight_islamic_state_radicals.html

The current approach to the Middle East has been a series of faulty tactics based on a tactical approach by the West. If we are to assist in any solutions, we must now develop a strategy and not tactics. Bombs and killings are tactics; cooperation, diplomacy and alliances are politics.

Politics, not tactics are the solution.

[Derek 2.0]

Those predictions are kind of irrelevant given the fact that we dont have the ability to stop it anyways, and we are likely if anything to make it worse.

As I said above, it has been nearly 25 years since the last time a Gulf State has invaded another Gulf State to a degree that threatens Middle Eastern oil exports...

[Derek 2.0]

Politics, not tactics are the solution.

Has ISIS shown a willingness to sit at a table and talk this out?

[bush_cheney2004]

Confronting ISIL and preserving "western" interests is not an either/or proposition. As in many wars past, bombs can work in unison with blankets.

[dre]

As I said above, it has been nearly 25 years since the last time a Gulf State has invaded another Gulf State to a degree that threatens Middle Eastern oil exports...

What wars did we stop?

[dre]

As I said above, it has been nearly 25 years since the last time a Gulf State has invaded another Gulf State to a degree that threatens Middle Eastern oil exports...

What wars did we stop?

Like I said... we have been a CAUSE of instability in the region, and we have gotten hundreds of thousands of people killed, and our gross miscalculations are the reason ISIS is taking over part of Iraq in the first place.

[Michael Hardner]

See...that's where you and I differ...I am very sure. I exceeded professional and personal goals last week. Doing pretty good this week too.

If you never fail, then you're setting goals that are too easy for yourself.

Either that or... my God you're just a perfect human being...

I am pretty sure that Iraq has a new type of government that has more democracy than Saddam and his two sons watching porn all day.

Sure, but we were talking about my goals.

I might reconsider if you could promise that America would not be dragged into Canadian topics, but of course, that is highly unlikely.....no....impossible.

So you can either ridicule it and not take part in that practice, or jump right in. As it is, you're both ridiculing it and doing it.

[GostHacked]

Anyone who comes on this forum and thinks fanatical suicide bombers are an effective method shows blatantly

his lack of appreciation for what he talks about and presumes to lecture Israe about.

Actually they are effective. But don't mistake this for being supportive of these actions.

1 - They kill people.

2 - Instills fear in local populations where these events take place.

3 - Politicians use the events for more fear mongering.

4 - Rights and privileges are eroding in the name of security.

Take Iraq and the many car/suicide bombings that has been going on for several years that led up to this whole ISIS thing. Something I have been pointing out on this very forum for a couple years now.

In Israel's case the non stop attacks by terrorists simply achieved on thing-its creating one of the most powerful militaries in the world.

And you say it's not effective? Because if it is NOT effective, then why does Israel have a military that is one of the most powerful on the planet? Why was the 'security barrier' put up? Why do the many checkpoints exist on the border and within the West Bank and Gaza?

After 9/11, you get the PATRIOT Act, extra screening at airports, warrant-less wiretapping, more fear, more police state activities, and on and on. It's VERY effective.

[Derek 2.0]

What wars did we stop?

What wars between nations in the region did we cause? The vacuum of US influence is what allowed ISIS to expand to the point that the Iraqi government was overwhelmed.........

[GostHacked]

What wars did we stop?

I think it has just been one perpetual war since WWI, perhaps long before that. We should have a war on war, but that would only bring us .. more war.