Mulroney on Harper

[Bryan]

Oh yeah? go check what healthcare costs on average in the US compared to Canada. Not even close. And of course God help you if they can prove it was a pre-existing condition as a way to leave you high and dry, as you die. No thanks.

None of that has anything to do with what I wrote.

[On Guard for Thee]

None of that has anything to do with what I wrote.

slippery slope to a US style system. Once again, no thanks.

[bush_cheney2004]

None of that has anything to do with what I wrote.

Can't help it... it is a reflex action when it comes to health care. Birds gotta fly...fish gotta swim....

[On Guard for Thee]

Can't help it... it is a reflex action when it comes to health care. Birds gotta fly...fish gotta swim....

Ostriches gotta stick their heads in the sand.

[eyeball]

More choices at home benefits everyone. The cost of choosing private delivery is lower because we don't have to factor in travel costs, and the quality of care for the public system improves because with less people using it, there is more to go around for those who do.

If fewer people are using it there will be calls to spend less on it - probably from people who want more money spent on fighter jets and icebreakers and stuff. It'll be more like a death spiral than a slippery slope.

Edited September 9, 2014 by eyeball

[waldo]

Each year they are paying more money than the last. It's an increase by any definition.

you've been shown what additional health care costs the provinces are faced with due to Harper Conservative changes... and yet you persist in repeatedly claiming there will be a federal increase in payments to the provinces. Step up and substantiate your repeated claim.

[waldo]

More choices at home benefits everyone. The cost of choosing private delivery is lower because we don't have to factor in travel costs, and the quality of care for the public system improves because with less people using it, there is more to go around for those who do.

nonsense! The public system erodes as more health care professionals leave it to work (exclusively) within the private system... erodes both in terms of quantity and quality of health care professionals leaving the public system. Every time a comment like yours comes forward I challenge the originator to strike up a thread to showcase their claimed advantages of private health care... I believe it was Simple last go around (as he presumed to tout the "best of" claims of European 2-tier health care). For some reason that challenge never gets taken up - how about you? How about you start up a thread to support your statements concerning the "private delivery benefits everyone" claim you've just made, hey!

[waldo]

None of that has anything to do with what I wrote.

comparative private system costs/service levels/insurance implications/etc., have everything to do with your "private system benefits everyone" related statements/claims... and, most certainly, most definitely, most absolutely, targeting the U.S. health care "dead last or near the bottom" system for comparative reference is most apropos!

[bush_cheney2004]

Now it comes in waves from the usual suspects.....whining comparisons about "U.S. healthcare" in the (Canada) Federal Politics area. It's the gift that keeps on giving. Whatever happened to the shuck and jive about health care delivery being private but funded by a single payer ? Try and keep the whining straight please.

Must be an election coming....

Edited September 9, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[On Guard for Thee]

Now it comes in waves from the usual suspects.....whining comparisons about "U.S. healthcare" in the (Canada) Federal Politics area. It's the gift that keeps on giving. Whatever happened to the shuck and jive about health care delivery being private but funded by a single payer ? Try and keep the whining straight please.

Must be an election coming....

Pointing out facts that serve to endorse a superior system isn't really "whining". But calling it whining might just be described as...whining.

[waldo]

Now it comes in waves from the usual suspects.....whining comparisons about "U.S. healthcare" in the (Canada) Federal Politics area. It's the gift that keeps on giving. Whatever happened to the shuck and jive about health care delivery being private but funded by a single payer ? Try and keep the whining straight please.

Must be an election coming....

hey now! I thought you had me/us on ignore. A comparative reference to the costs/service levels/insurance implications/etc., of the 'dead last or near the bottom' U.S. health care system is not your claimed "whining"... rather, that comparative reference is, as you say, the "U.S. gift that keeps on giving"! If you're really going to venture into the Canadian Federal Politics forum, you really need to better understand what public vs. private actually means in a Canadian focused context.

[waldo]

Pointing out facts that serve to endorse a superior system isn't really "whining". But calling it whining might just be described as...whining.

how does it feel to be off the guy's ignore list?

[bush_cheney2004]

Canada remains dead last in several key health care metrics precisely because of this stubborn intransigence that is obsessed with comparisons to the United States instead of other public/private pay systems. The politicians use this to shake up the ant farm come election time and deflect growing wait time and access shortfalls.

[On Guard for Thee]

Canada remains dead last in several key health care metrics precisely because of this stubborn intransigence that is obsessed with comparisons to the United States instead of other public/private pay systems. The politicians use this to shake up the ant farm come election time and deflect growing wait time and access shortfalls.

Hard not to be a bit obsessed with something as important as health care when we have a PM who want's to sell us out to an insurance company so's we get less care for more money. One has to be vigilant about such things. JT's haircut? We'll leave that one to Harper and his attack ads. That's a much smaller way Harper can piss away tax dollars.

[waldo]

Canada remains dead last in several key health care metrics precisely because of this stubborn intransigence that is obsessed with comparisons to the United States instead of other public/private pay systems. The politicians use this to shake up the ant farm come election time and deflect growing wait time and access shortfalls.

is there a difference between your claimed "Canadian dead last in several key health care metrics" and the "U.S. health care system being dead last or near the bottom in overall comparative ratings"? Well... is there?

are you feeling a lil' left out... should we strike up the US dead last in health care thread for ya?

[On Guard for Thee]

how does it feel to be off the guy's ignore list?

Apparently that "dead last" evaluation has ruffled a few feathers so an attempt (flimsy as it is) to try to reverse that. In answer to yor question though, I kind of like being ignored. I guess I'm not cut out to be a politician.

[Bryan]

If fewer people are using it there will be calls to spend less on it - probably from people who want more money spent on fighter jets and icebreakers and stuff. It'll be more like a death spiral than a slippery slope.

No one is calling for less funding for public healthcare. The only thing they want is to get control over the rate of the increase in the costs.

[waldo]

No one is calling for less funding for public healthcare. The only thing they want is to get control over the rate of the increase in the costs.

if no one is calling for less funding... why are Harper Conservatives funding less... by shifting costs (via funding shortfalls) onto the provinces?

does saving a measely $6 million dollars support the move of Harper Conservatives to shut down the Health Council of Canada... to not extend the now expired (2004-2014) Canada Health Accord ... to, as Harper Conservatives say alternatively, "let the provinces experiment"?

By closing the Health Council of Canada, Stephen Harper is abandoning national medicare --- Stephen Harper’s Conservative government is abandoning the essential federal role in Canadian health care.

The Health Council of Canada was formed in 2003, following the Romanow Commission on the Future of Health Care in Canada, to provide accountability, oversight, planning and national coordination for our health care system. Its achievements to date include lowering wait times and encouraging innovation in the public health care system to ensure access to a continuum of services, in and out of hospital.

The federal role is to facilitate national approaches to health system issues and promote the pan-Canadian adoption of best practices and innovation. This is the glue that holds medicare together and keeps it responsive to the evolving needs of the Canadian people. Provinces and territories cannot perform this role. The vacuum in federal leadership will fragment the health care system into 14 separate systems operating independently from each other. This fragmentation undermines the core principles of the Canada Health Act, especially comprehensive coverage and portability between provinces and territories.

Lack of federal coordination and guardianship means that more and more Canadians will lack access to comparable health services in primary care, prescription drugs, home care, rehabilitation and longer-term care.

The Harper government’s decision to terminate the Health Council will put an end to pan-Canadian health outcomes, common standards across the country and comparable indicators. It also strikes a blow to accountability, transparency and evidence-based health care policy.

.

[Bryan]

if no one is calling for less funding... why are Harper Conservatives funding less...

They aren't. Health care funding has increased, period.

[scribblet]

Hard not to be a bit obsessed with something as important as health care when we have a PM who want's to sell us out to an insurance company so's we get less care for more money.

Which PM wants to sell out health care to private insurance, do you have proof ? So far the only people selling us out are (my province) Ontario Liberals with their slow but sure defunding of services, even as they receive more money then ever. ( even if it is less then what they want).

[waldo]

They aren't. Health care funding has increased, period.

you keep making the same claim in spite of references provided to you stating otherwise. You were challenged to support your claim - you refuse. Your (incorrect) unsubstantiated personal opinion is noted.

again, another source for you to ignore: this time from the 'Council of the Federation Working Group'... the group mandated by Provincial Premiers to provide an analysis of how Harper Conservative health care changes will impact the provinces; one example, the $36 Billion dollar cost impact to the provinces example provided to you several times now... period!

Although Canada Health Transfer (CHT) base funding will not increase as a result of the move to per capita CHT cash in 2014/15 (i.e. there will be no cost to the federal government beyond the limited protection), the distribution of the CHT will be altered and the impact will not be shared evenly across provinces and territories.

In the medium-term, the provinces and territories will (collectively) receive $5.9 billion less in federal funding in 2018/19, due to the December 19th announcement, compared to what they would have received that year under the alternative scenarios considered by the working group. While the CHT and Canada Social Transfer (CST) renewal will be in effect for ten years, 2018/19 is the last year that a plan is in place for Equalization and Teritorial Formula Financing (TFF).

In the longer-term, the lower CHT growth rate and limited CHT protection will continue to reduce federal transfers compared to the alternative scenarios. Over the ten-year CHT renewal period, the provinces and territories will receive $36 billion less in federal CHT cash than they would have under the 2007 budget plan with a 6 per cent escalator.

The change in the CHT escalator in 2017/18, from 6 per cent to nominal GDP growth (expected to be approximately 4% on average), will reduce transfers by $25 billion, cumulatively, over the CHT renewal period. By 2023/24, the annual reduction in CHT transfers due to the lower escalator will grow to over $7 billion.

[waldo]

Which PM wants to sell out health care to private insurance, do you have proof ? So far the only people selling us out are (my province) Ontario Liberals with their slow but sure defunding of services, even as they receive more money then ever. ( even if it is less then what they want).

the Harper Conservative 'sell out' to private health care/insurance comes, in part, by eliminating the Health Council of Canada... by not renewing/extending the Canada Health Accord..... both fundamental cornerstones of what had been the federal role in Canadian Health Care. As detailed in this prior post:

[Bryan]

The Canada Health Council's mandate was specifically tied to the old health accord that has expired. The job is over, accordingly so is their funding. Its functions have been merged with the Canadian Institute for Health Information which was already doing much of the same work anyway. That is a perfect example of the sorts of cuts that governments SHOULD be doing -- reducing redundancy. A government job should not be a lifelong make-work project.

Cutting those types of expenditures allows for the continued increase in the provincial health transfers -- which continue to be increased year over year.

[On Guard for Thee]

Which PM wants to sell out health care to private insurance, do you have proof ? So far the only people selling us out are (my province) Ontario Liberals with their slow but sure defunding of services, even as they receive more money then ever. ( even if it is less then what they want).

That would be the PM that now sit's in Ottawa, His name is Stephen Harper and his 2014 budget that will defund virtually all provinces except Alberta over the next 10 years (if it's allowed to stay) once the per capita funding kicks in. If you reckon Ontario is messing up with their responsibility to healthcare, you'll have to take it up with them. What do you reckon was a top of the agenda when the provinces met last week in PEI? More money for healthcare is what. Of course Harper wouldn't have heard that, he's too gutless/arrogant to attend.

[waldo]

The Canada Health Council's mandate was specifically tied to the old health accord that has expired. The job is over, accordingly so is their funding. Its functions have been merged with the Canadian Institute for Health Information which was already doing much of the same work anyway. That is a perfect example of the sorts of cuts that governments SHOULD be doing -- reducing redundancy. A government job should not be a lifelong make-work project.

Cutting those types of expenditures allows for the continued increase in the provincial health transfers -- which continue to be increased year over year.

yes the Accord has expired... because Harper Conservatives refused to meet with the Premiers to negotiate an extended (or new) accord. Let the accord expire... shutter the Canada Health Council. Both in keeping with the Harper Conservative intent/actions to abrogate a federal role for health care. The absence of the accord is the only reason Harper Conservatives are getting away with the forced health care changes they're implementing... the costs to provinces you refused to accept/acknowledge. Perhaps given your reply absence to my last post in that regard you are FINALLY going to accept the costs being forced upon provinces by Harper Conservative changes.

you say the job of the Canada Health Council "is over"... care to elaborate on that statement? Care to speak to the functions/role of the council you claim has been merged into the CIHI. No... more pointedly - provide something other than your say so, that supports your claims of the "merge" of functions/roles. You speak of redundancy occurring between the (former) CHC and the CIHI - citation request.

will you ever step-up and provide cite/support for anything you state?