Mulroney on Harper

[Bryan]

you say the job of the Canada Health Council "is over"... care to elaborate on that statement?

It's job was tracking the progress and outcomes with respect to the the Health Accord. The accord has expired, the job is over. The job of tracking and reporting ALL data related to ALL aspects of Canadian Healthcare is already being done by the Canadian Institute for Health Information.

Health Council's demise 'just made sense,' spokesman says

As the 2004 federal-provincial health accord expires, so will the independent body monitoring it

Health Canada is winding down the funding for the Health Council of Canada, the independent body responsible for monitoring the results of the federal-provincial health accord struck in 2004.

But with the $41 billion deal set to expire in 2014, a spokesman for Health Minister Leona Aglukkaq says wrapping up the council's work "just made sense."

Steve Outhouse says the Health Council measured results in the health care system across Canada, work already being done by the Canadian Institute for Health Information (CIHI.)

He says Aglukkaq has already announced it will be renewing and expanding funding for CIHI.

The minister's spokesman said it is possible for the provinces to take over the council and "keep it going." But although the offer has been made, so far there has been no interest from them, and no complaints, says Outhouse.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/health-council-s-demise-just-made-sense-spokesman-says-1.1309302

We have CIHI, and reducing redundancy is the right thing to do. Healthcare is tough enough to fully fund, the last thing we need to to be wasting money on things that are already being done elsewhere that don't even contribute directly to frontline care.

What we really need now, are MORE of these duplicate services to be either shut down or amalgamated.

Edited September 10, 2014 by Bryan

[Bryan]

Was the Health Council of Canada even doing much with respect to the delivery of health care in Canada? Not so much.

Uproar over Health Council’s demise isn’t worth it

When it was created in 2003, the mandate was to monitor the implementation of the $24-billion first ministers’ accord on health-care renewal. When a new health accord worth $41-billion was signed the next year and deemed to be the “fix for a generation,” the health council was, once again, assigned to monitor progress. In addition, the new independent body – funded by the federal government but administered by the provinces – was to “report on Canada’s health system, focusing on best practices and innovation.”

Given its vague assignment and modest budget ($6.5-million a year), the health council has done an admirable job. But it’s not exactly a cornerstone of medicare. In fact, it is fairly ineffectual at monitoring: For example, in analyzing whether the provinces had delivered on their promise to cut waiting times using the $5.5-billion set aside in the accord, the conclusion every year was “maybe.” This is not the fault of the council, but of the provinces, who transformed data-tinkering and vague target-setting into an art form. In other words, it was ineffectual by design.

Where the health council really shone, however, was in highlighting innovative health-care projects across the country. But again, there is little evidence provinces actually used the information to improve the delivery of health care, so what’s the point?

Ottawa imposed a new deal, extending the funding provisions of the health accord, including an increase of six per cent a year, until 2016, then three per cent afterwards. It also removed all the conditions, meaning there really isn’t anything for the Health Council of Canada to monitor.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/uproar-over-health-councils-demise-isnt-worth-it/article11361339/

Edited September 10, 2014 by Bryan

[cybercoma]

One of the things we need to do is get seniors out of hospitals and into proper senior care buildings. Every hospital is jammed with them, and it's costing a fortune.

Maybe we can barely regulate them like they do with food processing and railways now too. Seniors packed into for-profit "Granny Mills."

[cybercoma]

you've been shown what additional health care costs the provinces are faced with due to Harper Conservative changes... and yet you persist in repeatedly claiming there will be a federal increase in payments to the provinces. Step up and substantiate your repeated claim.

The problem these conservatives fail to realize is that the money is going to come from somewhere. If the federal government is not spreading federal revenues, then it will be provincial governments who have to raise their revenues. They will be taxed to care for the aging population one way or the other.

[scribblet]

That would be the PM that now sit's in Ottawa, His name is Stephen Harper and his 2014 budget that will defund virtually all provinces except Alberta over the next 10 years (if it's allowed to stay) once the per capita funding kicks in. If you reckon Ontario is messing up with their responsibility to healthcare, you'll have to take it up with them. What do you reckon was a top of the agenda when the provinces met last week in PEI? More money for healthcare is what. Of course Harper wouldn't have heard that, he's too gutless/arrogant to attend.

He is not 'defunding' health care, that's a lie. Health care transfers are going up, just not as much as they want, this year it's up by y $1.8 billion Provinces are always asking for more, always will, nothing new.

[scribblet]

I wish.

Exactly, it's the red Tories who took over the party and destroyed any remnants of the Canadian Alliance, Reform was gone when it morphed into the CA.

Mulroney was interviewed again on CBC and has come out saying Harper should be re-elected based on his economic record alone, he also noted “It’s interesting, when I make those complimentary references no attention is paid by the media, but anytime there’s a disagreement we get headlines"

http://www.ipolitics.ca/2014/09/09/mulroney-retunes-the-harper-critique/

He also noted in the CBC interview that the cool relationship with the U.S. was pretty much the fault of Pres. Obama.

[waldo]

It's job was tracking the progress and outcomes with respect to the the Health Accord. The accord has expired, the job is over. The job of tracking and reporting ALL data related to ALL aspects of Canadian Healthcare is already being done by the Canadian Institute for Health Information.

yes, again... it expired. But, again, as I stated, the Premiers wanted it extended/renewed. Harper refused to meet with them... repeatedly refused. Are you going to deny/counter this? This began 2+ years ago as concerns began to come forward about the accord expiring. The suggestion that the Premier's said nothing about the eventual shutter of the Canada Health Council is disengenuous, at best... a bold faced lie, at worst. When you've got a federal government that for 2+ years refused to meet, to engage, on renewing that accord, the direction was obviously clear on what Harper's intention was - to shutter the Health Council. The end result? In the absence of a jointly negotiated federal-provincial accord, Harper gets to impose (as he did impose) the cuts and changes now in place... imposed ala the King's proclamation! Changes that erode the federal role... changes that shift costs onto the provinces. Up next, of course, Harper's designs on the Canada Health Act. Per the 2002 Harper leadership campaign:

"Harper also believes that our health care will continue to deteriorate unless Ottawa overhauls the Canada Health Act to allow the provinces to experiment with market reforms and private health care delivery options. He is prepared to take tough positions including experimenting with private delivery in the public system."

I challenged you to support your claim that the mandate/role of the Health Council was "merged" into the private operated (not independent) CIHI. And that's what you come back with... "tracking and reporting data"! That's what you equate to the mandate/role of the former Canada Health Council? But yes, on that rather narrow facet you highlight, that's exactly what CIHI does - with no attention to policy analysis, to health care trend analysis at a national level, to standards impact and oversight on those standards, to oversight at large, etc.. Of course, this fits swimmingly with what Harper really detests - independent oversight of his actions!

Health Council's demise 'just made sense,' spokesman says

of course, it "made sense" to the communications director of the former Harper Conservative Health Minister... the fumbling-bumbling Aglukkaq. You know, "Steve Outhouse" (yes! That's his real name... this is no slight on Harper)... Steve Outhouse, the guy who became the effective face of the Harper Conservative Health Ministry... and got trotted out for each of the profile problems that faced Aglukkaq. Of course, you'll read different "makes no sense" commentary from health professional organizations... like the Canadian Medical Association, like the Canadian Doctors for Medicare, like an assortment of provincial nursing organizations, like a multitude of organizations that advocate for universal healthcare, like those who want a federal government to protect, strengthen and expand universal health care... not a Harper Conservative federal government that wants to abrogate a federal role in health care, a Harper Conservative governent that wants to introduce market focused 2-tier healthcare while at the same time cutting public health care funding resources for provinces.

I guess when I asked you for cite/support, it was too much of me to expect you'd actually provide anything other than a Harper Conservative government mouthpiece! Your second link provides a journalist's interpretation that even if you accept any/all of his criticism of the Health Council, it's criticism in the form of presumed ineffectiveness... which he does at the same time reinforcing the need for a 'health council like' organization - but an effective one. Do you not find it somewhat unusual that in so doing, your linked journalist doesn't offer a single comment/reference to the CIHI? Go figure, hey!

.

[waldo]

He is not 'defunding' health care, that's a lie. Health care transfers are going up, just not as much as they want, this year it's up by y $1.8 billion Provinces are always asking for more, always will, nothing new.

do some research, read the thread - you don't know what you're talking about!

[Bryan]

yes, again... it expired. But, again, as I stated, the Premiers wanted it extended/renewed. Harper refused to meet with them... repeatedly refused. Are you going to deny/counter this? This began 2+ years ago as concerns began to come forward about the accord expiring. The suggestion that the Premier's said nothing about the eventual shutter of the Canada Health Council is disengenuous, at best... a bold faced lie, at worst. When you've got a federal government that for 2+ years refused to meet, to engage, on renewing that accord, the direction was obviously clear on what Harper's intention was - to shutter the Health Council. The end result? In the absence of a jointly negotiated federal-provincial accord, Harper gets to impose (as he did impose) the cuts and changes now in place... imposed ala the King's proclamation! Changes that erode the federal role... changes that shift costs onto the provinces. Up next, of course, Harper's designs on the Canada Health Act. Per the 2002 Harper leadership campaign:

I challenged you to support your claim that the mandate/role of the Health Council was "merged" into the private operated (not independent) CIHI. And that's what you come back with... "tracking and reporting data"! That's what you equate to the mandate/role of the former Canada Health Council? But yes, on that rather narrow facet you highlight, that's exactly what CIHI does - with no attention to policy analysis, to health care trend analysis at a national level, to standards impact and oversight on those standards, to oversight at large, etc.. Of course, this fits swimmingly with what Harper really detests - independent oversight of his actions!

of course, it "made sense" to the communications director of the former Harper Conservative Health Minister... the fumbling-bumbling Aglukkaq. You know, "Steve Outhouse" (yes! That's his real name... this is no slight on Harper)... Steve Outhouse, the guy who became the effective face of the Harper Conservative Health Ministry... and got trotted out for each of the profile problems that faced Aglukkaq. Of course, you'll read different "makes no sense" commentary from health professional organizations... like the Canadian Medical Association, like the Canadian Doctors for Medicare, like an assortment of provincial nursing organizations, like a multitude of organizations that advocate for universal healthcare, like those who want a federal government to protect, strengthen and expand universal health care... not a Harper Conservative federal government that wants to abrogate a federal role in health care, a Harper Conservative governent that wants to introduce market focused 2-tier healthcare while at the same time cutting public health care funding resources for provinces.

I guess when I asked you for cite/support, it was too much of me to expect you'd actually provide anything other than a Harper Conservative government mouthpiece! Your second link provides a journalist's interpretation that even if you accept any/all of his criticism of the Health Council, it's criticism in the form of presumed ineffectiveness... which he does at the same time reinforcing the need for a 'health council like' organization - but an effective one. Do you not find it somewhat unusual that in so doing, your linked journalist doesn't offer a single comment/reference to the CIHI? Go figure, hey!

.

Translation: Waldo got caught lying as usual, but thinks that as long as he doesn't stop typing, nobody will notice.

[On Guard for Thee]

Harper has killed the 6% annual increase and tied it to something about provincial GDP after 2017, which is currently about 4% but it will not go less than 3%.

Actual Translation: Harper is cutting funding to healthcare and dumping it on the provinces.

[Bryan]

A 3% increase is still an increase. It's more money than they got before, just not as much as they wanted.

[On Guard for Thee]

If I have my math right, 3% is roughly half of 6%. Correct me if I'm wrong. Which is what the current system provides until 2017. Then we head down that road toward the US/ Acme corp. style of healthcare. Well assuming Harper is still there, which I reckon/hope he won't be.

Granted funding our system in the face of an ageing population has it's challenges, but private for profit is probably the worst way to approach it.

[waldo]

Translation: Waldo got caught lying as usual, but thinks that as long as he doesn't stop typing, nobody will notice.

no lies on my part - don't hesitate to step up and support this quoted statement of yours. Your inability to support your statements/claims is noted. Clearly, you're not one of we gentlemen of MLW... this is MLW, where you don't hide from your statements/claims, where you don't liar label and where you don't run away like a little child.

[Bryan]

If I have my math right, 3% is roughly half of 6%. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You are wrong. It's 3% in addition to previous 6. It's More, not less.

[waldo]

Harper did not gut provincial healthcare funding.

They aren't. Health care funding has increased, period.

It's More, not less.

you can run... but you can't hide!

[On Guard for Thee]

Bryan, on 10 Sept 2014 - 11:47 PM, said:

You are wrong. It's 3% in addition to previous 6. It's More, not less.

Nope. The 3% is the minimum the feds will xfer in the case where a provincial GDP goes below that.

[waldo]

requesting a legitimate accounting of cost impacts on provinces relative to Harper Conservative health care changes... changes imposed upon the provinces relative to Harper Conservatives refusing to negotiate a new/extended Health Accord with the provincial Premiers:

per status updates:

Health transfers are actually going up massively, from 20 billion in 2005 to $32B now and to $38B in 2018]

try and support your claim in the appropriate thread where its being discussed. Is there a problem... for you

[Bryan]

Bryan, on 10 Sept 2014 - 11:47 PM, said:

You are wrong. It's 3% in addition to previous 6. It's More, not less.

Nope. The 3% is the minimum the feds will xfer in the case where a provincial GDP goes below that.

The minimum INCREASE over the other previous increases. No cuts whatsoever.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Bryan

[waldo]

The minimum INCREASE over the other previous increases. No cuts whatsoever.

so Bry... no cost impacts/increases on the provinces due to Harper Conservative health care changes, hey? None at all, hey?

.

[On Guard for Thee]

I think 3% is less than 6% but let me think about it a bit and I'll get back.

[scribblet]

I think 3% is less than 6% but let me think about it a bit and I'll get back.

Lemmee see - clearly it is increasing the payments but just not as much as Ontario would like

[On Guard for Thee]

The only people who will like are Albertan's due to population. If Harper's plan were actually in place today, every other province would see cuts.

"Guess I'll go out to Alberta, healthcare's good there in the fall"

[Bryan]

I think 3% is less than 6% but let me think about it a bit and I'll get back.

You're starting to get it. The rate of increase is being reduced.

Think of it this way. If last year you got a $1/hr raise, then this year you got a 50 cent raise, your pay is still going up in both circumstances. It's still $1.50 more than it was two years ago.

Understand now?

[On Guard for Thee]

Apparently you are NOT starting to get it. Under Harper the 1$ regular raise goes away. But you are right in one sense, if your provincial gdp is happens to drop below 3%, then you will still get 50 cents. But that's not a raise, its a reduction. I know numbers are a bit difficult.

[Bryan]

Apparently you are NOT starting to get it. Under Harper the 1$ regular raise goes away.

You still keep the previous increase, and you get more on top of that.