Mulroney on Harper

[cybercoma]

And thoroughly destroyed anything conservative about the party, too.

The Conservatives today are a party without ideology existing merely to be in power, making decisions, when they make any, by public opinion poll. They're much like the Chretien Liberals in that respect.

They're not necessarily that pragmatic. At least Chretien's Liberals did things, even if people didn't agree with them. The Harper Government is the "do nothing government." Hell, he even campaigned on "staying the course." They're only pragmatic in the sense that they're more concerned with creating an image and running a PR campaign than actually doing anything in practice that panders to the public opinion polls. Chretien's crew governed by the polls. They implemented things based on public opinion. Not so much with Harper. They only things they've done is bribed voters with tax credits, a GST cut, and tax free savings, while removing regulations that hold businesses accountable for their activities. Yet the economy still hasn't grown fast enough to pay for his bribed votes, so he had to sell off federal assets to make it look like the books were balanced.

Anyway, I generally agree. Harper is the kind of Prime Minister that's power hungry. He loves being in charge and will do absolutely anything to stay there, even if it means flipping off his base. That's sometimes good because it means he has some accountability to voters, but when that accountability comes from putting up appearances rather than demonstrating accomplishments or actually doing anything while in power, well, it's simply not good enough.

Edited September 5, 2014 by cybercoma

[overthere]

At least Chretien's Liberals did things,

Revisionist at best, since Chretien himself prided himself on doing as little as possible. Except stealing money from the provinces of course, then pretending he had slain the deficit. Looks like he thoroughly sucked in at least one taxpayer. Have you forgiven him for also stealing $200 million of our money to reward Liberal friendly ad agencies, or are ya sticking with the Rogue Bureaucrat Chuck Guite story line?

[Smallc]

Returning to constitutional responsibilities isn't stealing by any stretch.

[guyser]

Have you forgiven him for also stealing $200 million of our money to reward Liberal friendly ad agencies, or are ya sticking with the Rogue Bureaucrat Chuck Guite story line?

And of course....Steve Harper didnt know a thing....not a thing...about the payoffs to Duffy.

Not a thing....yup, not a thing.

Can we dispense with the idiocy now?

[Smallc]

I'm still not sure he did. It's the job of he COS to protect him from such things.

[overthere]

And of course....Steve Harper didnt know a thing....not a thing...about the payoffs to Duffy.

Not a thing....yup, not a thing.

Can we dispense with the idiocy now?

Chuck Guite lives in Duffys basement suite......

[Hal 9000]

From a purely mathematical viewpoint Mulroney was the guy responsible for taking the Conservatives from a 151 seat majority to 2 seats. 2 seats.

It is arguable that Harper took the Progressive out of PC, but it is indisputable that Mulroney took his Party out of the House of Commons.

GST!

[overthere]

GST!

Nah. The GST replaced the manufacturers tax, which was as goofy as it gets.

What screwed him and all that followed was the relentless cronyism and corruption in the cabinet.

Chretien was at least at bad but was a much more accomplished thief.

On the plus side, Mulroney got er done with free trade, which brought a generation of prosperity to Ontari-ario and further.

[Big Guy]

Yes. I can agree with that. Ultimately it would be nice to have two party choices on the right and two parties on the left. Or is more choices worse?

Three major choices is good for me. I believe that the worst possible situation in a democracy is a two major party system. I see the frustration in the USA with the two parties so far apart and no middle ground available that the government is in a gridlock situation.

[Hal 9000]

Nah. The GST replaced the manufacturers tax, which was as goofy as it gets.

What screwed him and all that followed was the relentless cronyism and corruption in the cabinet.

Chretien was at least at bad but was a much more accomplished thief.

On the plus side, Mulroney got er done with free trade, which brought a generation of prosperity to Ontari-ario and further.

The regular people didn't know too much about cronyism, and if they did...whatever, didn't all politicians do that. I know how the GST was sold and I know the history books talk about the manufacturers tax - but all people knew was that when then do anything....anything at all, the taxes would be doubled. It was very unpopular with every working person and every business, the only people who liked it were those lower income people who thought they'd get a GST rebate every so often - those people would never vote conservative anyway. Small businesses felt they would feel the hurt too. Add to it, that people were outraged that we were actually paying GST before it became law.

I don't know how old you were when GST rolled around, but it was so unpopular that it would've killed any politicians career.

[overthere]

The regular people didn't know too much about cronyism, and if they did...whatever, didn't all politicians do that. I know how the GST was sold and I know the history books talk about the manufacturers tax - but all people knew was that when then do anything....anything at all, the taxes would be doubled. It was very unpopular with every working person and every business, the only people who liked it were those lower income people who thought they'd get a GST rebate every so often - those people would never vote conservative anyway. Small businesses felt they would feel the hurt too. Add to it, that people were outraged that we were actually paying GST before it became law.

I don't know how old you were when GST rolled around, but it was so unpopular that it would've killed any politicians career.

I was around and paying taxes, as always.

Mulroney had an endless stream of scandals and they certainly hurt him, and deservedly so. His personal popularity was pretty close to single digit when he quit before the humiliation that came with the 1993 election.

It is pretty hilarious to see Chretien do the same or worse and people think he was a great Prime Minister.

[Big Guy]

I'm hoping Harper is replaced with a better option. After watching this interview I miss having a PC option. Wouldn't it be nice if the CPC were more progressive socially and more conservative financially?

I agree wholeheartedly. As Mulroney said, ten years is about the life span of any federal party and the next winner usually runs on "change". It is very difficult to run against change.

I still blame the current Reform position of the federal party on Peter MacKay. He lied to get the leadership of the old party, getting the position only when he promised no alliance with the farther right wing Reform/Alliance. He showed his true colours when he led the merger of the parties with the assumption that he would be crowned as the new leader. Stephen Harper elbowed him off the stage and we have what we have to-day. I also think Peter has been a screw-up in every portfolio that he was given. Old Elmer would not have been pleased.

It does look like popular opinion will elect Trudeau and the Liberals as the next government so the Progressive Conservatives have a few years to wait. I hope that by that time the moderates have taken back the PC party and take their turn when the time comes.

Mulroney did and does have his crosses to bear but he still is one of the sharpest and knowledgeable Canadian politicians alive. The Harper PMO should take his advice.

[Hal 9000]

I was around and paying taxes, as always.

Mulroney had an endless stream of scandals and they certainly hurt him, and deservedly so. His personal popularity was pretty close to single digit when he quit before the humiliation that came with the 1993 election.

It is pretty hilarious to see Chretien do the same or worse and people think he was a great Prime Minister.

Exactly, people don't know or don't care enough about scandals as you think. This is a voting public that provincially kept voting in NDP no matter how corrupt they showed themselves to be. The single thing that brought Canadians together was the outright hatred for GST.

The GST might've been something the country needed, but no politician was ever gonna survive it.

[Argus]

They're not necessarily that pragmatic. At least Chretien's Liberals did things, even if people didn't agree with them.

Like? I remember near the end of his last term how his loyalists were deseprately searching around for a 'legacy'. There was even talk of building some sort of grand avenue in Ottawa, something at least, to remind the world he'd ever been prime minister. That never came about.

So after so many years of office, years when, like the Tories, they ignored all major problems, such as health care, what is it you believe they did?

They're only pragmatic in the sense that they're more concerned with creating an image and running a PR campaign than actually doing anything in practice that panders to the public opinion polls. Chretien's crew governed by the polls. They implemented things based on public opinion. Not so much with Harper.

Harper has done stuff, just as unimportant, in large measure, as Chretien. But it's all tinkering where he doesn't think it will cause controversy or cost him votes. I've seen nothing bold out of this government after eight years, any more than I saw anything bold out of Chretien. Chretien was content as long as the polls showed him ahead, to do nothing. Harper is also fixated on the polls, and, as you say, on PR and image. Reality doesn't matter so much.

I'm an eternal optimist with every new hockey season. Who knows? But I have my doubts Trudeau, from what we've seen of him thus far and who he's taking advice from, is going to be any less of a disappointment than Harper. In fact, I believe he'll be more energetic, but I believe he'll eagerly seize at ideas which, like McGuinty, are poorly thought out, and will ultimately weaken the country. We'll get higher spending, higher taxes, higher unemployment, and bigger deficits.

[Argus]

I don't know how old you were when GST rolled around, but it was so unpopular that it would've killed any politicians career.

It wasn't THAT unpopular. Most people did understand it was a replacement for a hidden tax. I certainly did. No, it was the atmosphere of constant corruption and scandal which plagued Mulroney, along with, outside of Quebec, him being seen as sucking up to Quebec too much. Not that that helped since Quebec left them high and dry when they jumped to the BQ.

[Hal 9000]

I know it's just a wikipedia article, but....

A strong Liberal Party majority was elected under the leadership of Jean Chrétien in the 1993 election. The Progressive Conservative Party fared very poorly in that election, winning only two seats. Although the party recovered somewhat in subsequent elections, it remained the smallest party in the House of Commons until it disbanded itself permanently in 2004, and merged with the Canadian Alliance to form the Conservative Party of Canada.

During the election campaign, Chrétien promised to repeal the GST, which the Liberals had denounced so vociferously while they were the Official Opposition, and replace it with a different tax.....

The decision not to abolish or replace the GST caused great controversy, both within the Liberal party and out.

The way I read this; is that the decline of Mulroney and the overwhelming win for Cretien was all about the GST.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Hal 9000

[Argus]

The way I read this; is that the decline of Mulroney and the overwhelming win for Cretien was all about the GST.

Nope. Oh I'm sure it had an affect, but it didn't destroy them. In fact, at one point in the election the conservatives under Kim Campbell were ahead in the polls, believe it or not. But Kim Campbell, to put it charitably, was a horrible campaigner, put her foot in her mouth, and from some of the thing I've read since, was too busy romancing her new boyfriend. I think the public saw her as a fresh new face, but after a series of gaffes they looked less fondly at her and the residual unhappiness with the "Mulroney Tories" swamped them.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Argus

[Hal 9000]

Nope. Oh I'm sure it had an affect, but it didn't destroy them. In fact, at one point in the election the conservatives under Kim Campbell were ahead in the polls, believe it or not. But Kim Campbell, to put it charitably, was a horrible campaigner, put her foot in her mouth, and from some of the thing I've read since, was too busy romancing her new boyfriend. I think the public saw her as a fresh new face, but after a series of gaffes they looked less fondly at her and the residual unhappiness with the "Mulroney Tories" swamped them.

Personally, I don't think you get that big of swing in popularity over something like like.

I'll stick to my views as I'm sure you'll stick to yours.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Hal 9000

[Argus]

Personally, I don't think you get that big of swing in popularity over something like like.

I'll stick to my views as I'm sure you'll stick to yours.

That's usually how these things work out.

Btw, I was here at the time and very much involved in politics. Were you?

[overthere]

The GST might've been something the country needed, but no politician was ever gonna survive it.

Chretien survived his oft and strenuously repeated campaign lie promising to repeal it..... I really think it was the cumulative weight of all the scandals of the previous ten years that did Mulroney in.

Of course, who can forget Sheila Copps promising to resign if the Liberals did not repeal the GST? She did quit, kicking screaming and whining, and was re-elected in a byelection. It probably cost her her job as deputy PM.

[overthere]

But Kim Campbell, to put it charitably, was a horrible campaigner

The Tories could have run Jesus Christ as their leader with Mother Teresa as campaign manager and they'd have still been destroyed in 1993. Actually, they were destroyed and never recovered.

[Hal 9000]

The Tories could have run Jesus Christ as their leader with Mother Teresa as campaign manager and they'd have still been destroyed in 1993. Actually, they were destroyed and never recovered.

I think Jesus was a Socialist.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Hal 9000

[jbg]

This morning's National Post brings us this "must read" article (link) on the former PM's activities and Mulroney's apparent vitriol towards Harper. Mulroney, in my view, tried to weight the country towards Quebec with both Meech and Charlottetown to an extent even Trudeau the Smarter couldn't tolerate.

[PIK]

And thoroughly destroyed anything conservative about the party, too.

The Conservatives today are a party without ideology existing merely to be in power, making decisions, when they make any, by public opinion poll. They're much like the Chretien Liberals in that respect.

In a country as diverse as this, it is pretty well impossible to be completely conservative or liberal. You have to bend ,which harper has done well.

[Argus]

In a country as diverse as this, it is pretty well impossible to be completely conservative or liberal. You have to bend ,which harper has done well.

I completely agree with your first sentence. But bending is one thing, bending into a pretzel is another. Harper has abandoned every principal he once spoke for. Open government, smaller government, efficiency, self-reliance, a strong military, none of those are important any more. Let's not even get into how he's given the back of his hand to social policies he himself once stated he supported, like laws on abortion, and capital punishment.

He rules by public opinion poll, targeting specific voter segments, finding out what they want or what will please them, then trying to put in policies to do that. A strong leader does what's needed, not what will win more votes. He and Chretien before him ignored health care because they don't want to deal with the complications and fallout. Same thing on native affairs. I've seen nothing big or bold from Harper, nothing to indicate he has any particular ambition to implement anything.

Unfortunately, I think Trudeau will do even worse.