Holocaust survivors condemn Israel for 'Gaza massacre,'

[Rue]

What they really seem to misunderstand is how their BS only serves to drive people even farther away from ever paying them much attention.

"They"

Who is they?

Surely to Christ you don't mean "Jews" do you?

[Rue]

Most people do... the thing is even critisizm of the nation state of Israel and its government is immediately declared anti-semetism because thats just how these people operate.

That was deep. Thanks.

Who immediately declares criticism of Israeli state policy anti-semitism?

Who are "these people".

Oh say now, do you mean Jews?

No no you mean just the bad Jews, not the good ones right?

Oopsy the bigotry is just oozing out.

[dre]

That was deep. Thanks.

Who immediately declares criticism of Israeli state policy anti-semitism?

Who are "these people".

Oh say now, do you mean Jews?

No no you mean just the bad Jews, not the good ones right?

Oopsy the bigotry is just oozing out.

I was talking about people like you... militant minded zealots... not jews. I dont even know if you ARE a jew or not, I just know youre a loudmouth.

And you illustrated my point for me perfectly. Your posts are literally jam-packed with accusations of racism and antisemetism. Its pretty much your entire schtick. You replied to my post with a post doing EXACTLY what I accused you of... Bleating and wretching, and calling people bigots and racists.

[Rue]

I was talking about people like you... militant minded zealots... not jews. I dont even know if you ARE a jew or not, I just know youre a loudmouth.

And you illustrated my point for me perfectly. Your posts are literally jam-packed with accusations of racism and antisemetism. Its pretty much your entire schtick. You replied to my post with a post doing EXACTLY what I accused you of... Bleating and wretching, and calling people bigots and racists.

You Dre come on this forum with words I believe are clear indication of someone apologizing for Hamas. Then you deny it. That to me is bleating then wretching. By the way Dre, the attempt to claim you did not know I was a Jew, that's as good as the denial you are not pro Hamas.

If you don't like what I write don't respond. Put words on this forum that apologize for Hamas and I will challenge you. Call me names and I smile.

Get this clear as well, you bet my posts are as you say jam packed with accusations of anti-semitism. When the posts are anti-semitic I call them exactly what they are and challenge them. Don't give me this two bit crap anout "calling people" bigots. I am very specific as to who my posts are directed at and why.

I don't hide what my agenda is. I don't play games as to who I am and what I stand for. Don't mix me up with you Dre. Thank you but I don't apologize for terrorism or try dance my way out of what I say.

Poof.

[eyeball]

"They"

Who is they?

Surely to Christ you don't mean "Jews" do you?

I mean anti-Semites like you.

[Rue]

I mean anti-Semites like you.

Oh look who's gonna engage in inversion with moi. Lol. Bring it on. Bring on the name calling.

source:http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-wistrich-f04.htm

"Anti-Zionism has become the most dangerous and effective form of anti- Semitism in our time, through its systematic delegitimization, defamation, and demonization of Israel. Although not a priori anti-Semitic, the calls to dismantle the Jewish state, whether they come from Muslims, the Left, or the radical Right, increasingly rely on an anti-Semitic stereotypization of classic themes, such as the manipulative "Jewish lobby," the Jewish/Zionist "world conspiracy," and Jewish/Israeli "warmongers." One major driving force of this anti-Zionism/anti-Semitism is the transformation of the Palestinian cause into a "holy war"; another source is anti-Americanism linked with fundamentalist Islamism. In the current context, classic conspiracy theories, such as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, are enjoying a spectacular revival. The common denominator of the new anti-Zionism has been the systematic effort to criminalize Israeli and Jewish behavior, so as to place it beyond the pale of civilized and acceptable conduct."

Go on Eye you and Dre can attack me all you want. Lol. Wuttza mattuh Eye dis Joo won't agree with you?

[dre]

You Dre come on this forum with words I believe are clear indication of someone apologizing for Hamas. Then you deny it. That to me is bleating then wretching. By the way Dre, the attempt to claim you did not know I was a Jew, that's as good as the denial you are not pro Hamas.

If you don't like what I write don't respond. Put words on this forum that apologize for Hamas and I will challenge you. Call me names and I smile.

Get this clear as well, you bet my posts are as you say jam packed with accusations of anti-semitism. When the posts are anti-semitic I call them exactly what they are and challenge them. Don't give me this two bit crap anout "calling people" bigots. I am very specific as to who my posts are directed at and why.

I don't hide what my agenda is. I don't play games as to who I am and what I stand for. Don't mix me up with you Dre. Thank you but I don't apologize for terrorism or try dance my way out of what I say.

Poof.

More bleating and wretching! What a suprise

Get this clear as well, you bet my posts are as you say jam packed with accusations of anti-semitism. When the posts are anti-semitic I call them exactly what they are and challenge them.

The problem is you seem to see anti-semetism pretty much everyone... in heart of every child and on the face of every smiling baby.

You continued nonsense about me apologizing for hamas is what it is... more bleating and wretching. If you could back it up you would, but you cant. Just like you cant back up any of your hundreds of knee-jerk allegations of racism.

Bleat bleat! Wretch wretch! Anti-Semite!!!! Anti-semite!!!

[Rue]

What is funny Dre is you and Eye can not debate. I am spoon-feeding you the position I am making and the best you can do is cluck.

Trying to attack me for the position I have stated is not focusing away from what you have stated on this forum.

The anti-semitism I have challenged is specific to the words stated on this board on this thread and other threads where the criticism of Israeli state policies is not the agenda but denying the right of Israelis to be Jews in a jewish state is.

The anti-semitism I have challenged is specific to the words on this board that attack any Jew for wishing to live in a Jewish state under the pretext of defending Palestinians from IDF responses.

What's the matter Dre tongue tied? Is that the best you can do?

Interesting but the only one using !!!! marks is not moi. Lol. More Dre.

Oh by the way here is the point I am making:

"But the argument that Israel is illegitimate because its founding led to 600,000 to 700,000 Arab refugees is as anti-Jewish as is anti-Zionism. Virtually every country in the world was founded by displacing some of the people who had lived there, and many of those countries did far worse to far more people than Israel did. Therefore, anyone who calls only for Israel’s destruction had better explain why, of all the states on earth whose founding was accompanied by the displacement of others, only the Jewish state is illegitimate.

Take Pakistan, for example. Unlike the Jewish state of Israel, which had existed twice before in history, there was never a country called Pakistan, nor was there ever any other independent Muslim country in the part of India that was carved out to create Pakistan. Moreover, if the Jewish state of Israel is illegitimate because it created 700,000 Arab refugees, why isn’t the Muslim state of Pakistan, which created more than eight million Hindu refugees, illegitimate?

The answer is obvious. When people isolate the one Jewish state in the world for sanctions, opprobrium and delegitimizing, they are doing so because it is the Jewish state. And that, quite simply, is why anti-Zionism is simply another form of Jew-hatred.

You can criticize Israel all you want. That does not make you an anti-semite. But if you are an anti-Zionist or advocate the destruction of the Jewish state, then let’s be clear: You are an enemy of the Jews and of Judaism, and the word for such a person is and will aways be: Anti-Semite."

source:http://jdlsl.wordpress.com/2008/07/08/anti-zionism-is-anti-semitism/

Down Joo Joo. Sit. Stay. Heel. Uh no not quite Dre. This one reads and writes.

[Rue]

Oh guess what Martin Luther King said:

“And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is anti-Semitism…The anti-Semite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the anti-Semite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just ‘anti-Zionist’!”

Golly.

[Rue]

site: http://sultanknish.blogspot.ca/2014/08/there-are-no-self-hating-jews.html#sthash.qLjJz6je.dpuf

"Jewish anti-Semites hate Jews for most of the same reasons that his fellow non-Jewish anti-Semites do. He may focus in on certain perceived Jewish traits that he despises, he may feel injured in some way by Jews as a group, but these and other examples are instances of viewing Jews as an "Other". By viewing Jews as an "Other", the Jewish anti-Semite concedes that he is no longer a Jew, no matter how much Brooklyn there is in his voice or how many Jewish authors line his bookshelf. The most common anti-Semitism is the explicit perception of Jews as an "Other" who are seperatists and disrupt the larger society by clannishly holding themselves apart from it for their own agenda. The left's expressions of anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism have always consisted of this same critique. And the most common Jewish anti-Semites today are those of the left. The Jews who publicly beat their breasts in the pages of the New York Times or on Twitter about how "conflicted" they feel because of what Israel is doing in Gaza are torn between two identities. One is a subordinate Jewish identity and the other is the dominant identity of the left. The left views Jews and the Jewish State as an "Other" and they see the scraps of their Jewish identity as an "Other". A cruel murderous Nazi-like "Other" who senselessly kills children out of fanatical nationalism.

...

The so-called "Self-Hating Jew" has stepped out of Jewish history. He remains behind only as an antagonist in the dim recollections of the descendants of the people he has tried to destroy. He may protest that his hatred is founded on some pure source of what Jewish ethics ought to be, but it is not possible for an individual to define Jewishness on his own terms in a way that will last across time.

The self-hating Jew is not a Jew. He is not part of the Jewish civilization moving through time. He may have a Jewish past, but he has no Jewish future.

His malice causes damage in the present, but it is the frustrated act of a mortal man who knows that he has no future, that he will leave behind no legacy that a century of time will not wash away as thoroughly as the debris in the gutter.

There are no self-hating Jews. There are Jews who hate the Jewish People. Their hatred excludes them from the thing that they hate. By Othering Jews, they only Other themselves. Their books, their petitions, their jokes and their protests, their boat trips to Gaza and their letters from 199 Rabbis Against the Occupation and all the other symptoms of their hatred exist in the present, but not the past or the future. In the totality of Jewish civilization across time, they are already gone. "

[jbg]

More bleating and wretching! What a suprise

The problem is you seem to see anti-semetism pretty much everyone... in heart of every child and on the face of every smiling baby.

You continued nonsense about me apologizing for hamas is what it is... more bleating and wretching. If you could back it up you would, but you cant. Just like you cant back up any of your hundreds of knee-jerk allegations of racism.

Bleat bleat! Wretch wretch! Anti-Semite!!!! Anti-semite!!!

The problem is that the world sees Israel as the worst human rights offender, and virtually ignores Hamas, ISIS, Russia, China, Burundi, Sudan, and, and, and.... The list goes on.

[eyeball]

Oh look who's gonna engage in inversion with moi.

So you support Palestinians?

Edited August 27, 2014 by eyeball

[Moonlight Graham]

At the pith and substance of understanding why certain Jews and in particular even holocaust surviving Jews would express anti Zionist opinions is a behavioural phenomena known in all minority groups. Its called self hatred and I would argue it fuels the Not in Our Name Group and Jewish anti-semites such as Norm Finklestein.

...

I would argue the difference betwen Jewish people who are genuine critics of Israeli state poliocy and self hating Jews, is that the former have no desire to harm the state of Israel, the latter do. I would argue a self-hating Jew does not distinguish their criticism of Israeli state policies from Jews as a people. At the pith and substance of the self-hating Jew's arguement is a rejection of his or her Jewish identity.

Maybe this is true for some anti-Zionist Jews, but it takes a lot of nerve to say that any Jew who does not believe in Zionism is automatically "self-hating". I think a Jew being either a zionist or anit-zionist is a perfectly legitimate opinion if it's backed up with legitimate arguments. Here's the self-description for IJAN (international jewish anti-zionist network):

IJAN is an international network of Jews who are uncompromisingly committed to struggles for human emancipation, of which the liberation of the Palestinian people and land is an indispensable part. Our commitment is to the right of return for Palestinian refugees, the ending of the Israeli colonization of historic Palestine and an end to US economic and military dominance in the region, in which Israel plays a crucial part.

The State of Israel’s historic and ongoing ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people from their land contradicts and betrays the long histories of Jewish participation in our own and collective struggles for liberation. We object to Zionism’s exploitation of histories of Jewish persecution and genocide to justify the colonization of Palestine and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians and its debasement of these histories.

Legitimate viewpoint. They don't believe Jews have a rightful claim to the area, an arguable point.

If you care about another peoples as much or more than your interests does that make you "self-hating"? Maybe some are "Palestinian-lovers" or "humanity-lovers" rather than self-haters? The opinion that if you care about other people in a way that may harm your own self-interests means that you're self-hating is BS. That goes for a lot of things. I'd like to live in a world with a lot more people like that. Not to say that I think IJAN's views are any more right than Zionists views, but I do admire the fact that they care about the interests of Palestinians (if it's coming from a good place). If both Palestinians/Arabs and Zionists/Israelis cared as much about the other as they do themselves then this conflict would be over. It's these selfish, self-centered victim narratives (to the exclusion of understanding the others' narratives) from both sides that destroy prospects for peace.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Moonlight Graham

[TimG]

---

Edited August 27, 2014 by TimG

[marcus]

Its called self hatred

Yes. These holocaust survivors' opinions have no validity because they are self-hating Jews.

[Bob Macadoo]

Do you have ANYTHING to say that's of any use to anyone?

Surely to Christ you don't imagine you're doing anything at all to win hearts and minds around here. I honestly don't know why you'd think you're doing Israel any favors

I treat Rue posts like annoying adverts for boner pills, ginsu knives, etc. The price of a free app. Just scroll through the flotsam to get to the content. Things you endure to save 99 cents

[marcus]

Any ideology like Wahhabism/Salafism and Zionism which violate another group of people's basic human rights in order to achieve its own selfish agenda is wrong and should be eradicated.

[bush_cheney2004]

Sure...just like...Imperialism. So when are we leaving North America ?

[dre]

Oh look who's gonna engage in inversion with moi. Lol. Bring it on. Bring on the name calling.

source:http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-wistrich-f04.htm

"Anti-Zionism has become the most dangerous and effective form of anti- Semitism in our time, through its systematic delegitimization, defamation, and demonization of Israel. Although not a priori anti-Semitic, the calls to dismantle the Jewish state, whether they come from Muslims, the Left, or the radical Right, increasingly rely on an anti-Semitic stereotypization of classic themes, such as the manipulative "Jewish lobby," the Jewish/Zionist "world conspiracy," and Jewish/Israeli "warmongers." One major driving force of this anti-Zionism/anti-Semitism is the transformation of the Palestinian cause into a "holy war"; another source is anti-Americanism linked with fundamentalist Islamism. In the current context, classic conspiracy theories, such as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, are enjoying a spectacular revival. The common denominator of the new anti-Zionism has been the systematic effort to criminalize Israeli and Jewish behavior, so as to place it beyond the pale of civilized and acceptable conduct."

Go on Eye you and Dre can attack me all you want. Lol. Wuttza mattuh Eye dis Joo won't agree with you?

Just another zealot doing intellectual gymnastics to label opponents of a political movement as racist.

How convenient huh?

[Bryan]

Just another zealot doing intellectual gymnastics to label opponents of a political movement as racist.

How convenient huh?

It's a deliberate tactic to shut down debate. They know damn well that anti-semitism has nothing to do with it. Evil is evil, regardless of who is doing it. Pointing out the fact that Israel is actively engaging in war crimes has no bearing on the religion or ethnicity of their citizens. It's about the actions of the leaders and the military of that nation.

[TimG]

Evil is evil, regardless of who is doing it.

Except self defense is not evil. Hiding rockets in schools and hospitals: pure evil.

[waldo]

Except self defense is not evil. Hiding rockets in schools and hospitals: pure evil.

one can be thankful that Israel has the wherewithal, capability and support to facilitate its 'Iron Dome' defense... that, accordingly, very few innocent Israeli citizens were killed from Hamas launched rockets. Meanwhile, Israel's rather indiscriminate "precision" bombing... ain't so precise; hence, the more than 2000 innocent Palestinian citizens killed. Is that the measure of your claimed "self defense <> evil"?

[Keepitsimple]

one can be thankful that Israel has the wherewithal, capability and support to facilitate its 'Iron Dome' defense... that, accordingly, very few innocent Israeli citizens were killed from Hamas launched rockets. Meanwhile, Israel's rather indiscriminate "precision" bombing... ain't so precise; hence, the more than 2000 innocent Palestinian citizens killed. Is that the measure of your claimed "self defense <> evil"?

The MSM reports that "the majority" of the Gaza dead are innocent civilians. Try and find the number of Hamas that are included in that toll - it's almost impossible. A week or two ago, I remember reading that the Israeli military estimated over 700 militants had been killed. So.....as sad as the loss of any innocent life is - the bombing is certainly nowhere near being indiscriminate.

After a variety of search attempts, here's a recent article that lends support to the dubious nature of the number of militant deaths:

A number of other news organisations have been considering the civilian-to-fighter ratio.

An analysis by the New York Times looked at the names of 1,431 casualties and found that "the population most likely to be militants, men ages 20 to 29, is also the most overrepresented in the death toll. They are 9% of Gaza's 1.7 million residents, but 34% of those killed whose ages were provided."

"At the same time, women and children under 15, the least likely to be legitimate targets, were the most underrepresented, making up 71% of the population and 33% of the known-age casualties."

Link: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28688179

Edited August 27, 2014 by Keepitsimple

[waldo]

Simple, are you seeking cover for the 'less than precise bombing' within the number of innocent Palestinians killed? Since you've chosen a bean-counting statistical measure of accountability, using your figure of ~25%, that's still ~1500 innocents among the total ~2000 said to have been killed by the Israeli bombing. Of course, there is no absolute determination that "those of militant age" constitute the full ~25% that you're, apparently, reaching for here. In any case, do these statistical numbers you seek to highlight better represent the 'less than precise bombing' results?

[GostHacked]

If you don't like it don't read it.

I tend to skip over 90% of what you type.