How Trudeau is winning my vote

[PrimeNumber]

So what? Theres no risk for Trudeau here. What do you think that Canadians who favor some restrictions are going to do when they follow their conscience? Vote for Harper? Of course not... hes not compaigning on restricting abortion either. Trudeau was smart to suppress the womb-goons in his party for the same reason that harper has done it for 8 years.

Even if a majority believes there should be some restrictions on abortion most people realize those restrictions are already there and theres almost no late term elective abortions in this country.

So if you ask a different question?

So tell me... are those the "loud left"? Or are they the "Canadians following their conscience?"

You beat me too it!

[cybercoma]

NOBODY in any position of authority is arguing for eliminating "choice". This was never an issue. The Conservatives have been in power for 8 years, a majority for almost four, and haven't even touched the issue.

Except they canned the dispute process that the Liberals had initiated with New Brunswick over the Canada Health Act and access to abortions. So you're right they've done nothing and in the process ended up severely restricting access in NB, which was also where women in PEI were getting help.

[cybercoma]

Well... parties are supposed to reflect certain political views and stand for certain things. The old guard ran the liberal party into the ground, and they were losing elections. JT is expected to change that, and thats going to mean taking positions on certain things, and its going to mean some ideas and people are not going to fit in anymore. Some people will see this the way that you do (lets face it you would hate him no matter WHAT he did) and some people will see his willingness to take on some in his own party as a positive thing.

So far... polls seem to suggest that hes helping the party.

It's an important point you make. The old Liberals were crushed. Having a bunch of the old club speak out against Trudeau is nothing but good press for him. He's going to steal the socially progressive ideas from the NDP and the fiscally conservative ideas from the Conservatives and brand the Liberals as the best of the other parties without their faults. That's exactly the road he's headed down.

Edited September 20, 2014 by cybercoma

[On Guard for Thee]

And I neglected to add in my previous post, I doubt we really want to re-visit out history were women are forced into back alleys with coat hangar "doctors"

[WestCoastRunner]

Interestingly enough, one of the ex-mps who wrote this letter is an advisor to the anti-abortion group Campaign Life Coalition and has publicly opposed same-sex marriage.

[cybercoma]

Interestingly enough, one of the ex-mps who wrote this letter is an advisor to the anti-abortion group Campaign Life Coalition and has publicly opposed same-sex marriage.

Oh. You mean the same group that was leaving these in people's mailboxes all over Fredericton this week?

Instead of directly posting the image here, I'm going to post the link. It's graphic so be prepared.

http://www.unmaskingchoice.ca/sites/default/files/gallant_web_large.jpg

[On Guard for Thee]

I guess when they fail at inspiration they move on to desperation.

[Peter F]

So you're okay with authoritarian PMs who act like nasty bastards as long as you agree with their political views. Got it.

What part of "I hate that f****er" eluded your grasp?

I'm pretty sure your just fine with nasty bastards as long as your political views align. So save the holier-than-thou shit for someone who cares. Hint: I don't really give a shit about you or trudeau or harper. I aint voting for anyone of them - even though I agree with how they handle the abortion so-called issue.

[Keepitsimple]

You really should read your own link.

60% support what? What are they supporting? There are but a mere hanful of third term abortions, no one gets on just because.

60% do not want Abortion on Demand. They want SOME form of restriction. It could be as minor as mandatory counselling - or like New Brunswick - getting two doctors' opinions. Point is, we're not ALLOWED to have that discussion - and certainly not within the Liberal Party.

[Keepitsimple]

So what? Theres no risk for Trudeau here. What do you think that Canadians who favor some restrictions are going to do when they follow their conscience? Vote for Harper? Of course not... hes not compaigning on restricting abortion either. Trudeau was smart to suppress the womb-goons in his party for the same reason that harper has done it for 8 years.

Even if a majority believes there should be some restrictions on abortion most people realize those restrictions are already there and theres almost no late term elective abortions in this country.

So if you ask a different question?

So tell me... are those the "loud left"? Or are they the "Canadians following their conscience?"

Exactly the point that people are trying to make. There was no need for Trudeau to exclude that 60% from the Party and saying that these "people of conscience" are no longer welcome. It was for crass political reasons. Talk about politics of division. Harper's been smart enough to leave it alone.

[cybercoma]

60% do not want Abortion on Demand. They want SOME form of restriction. It could be as minor as mandatory counselling - or like New Brunswick - getting two doctors' opinions. Point is, we're not ALLOWED to have that discussion - and certainly not within the Liberal Party.

So what? NB's law was already overturned by the Supreme Court when it was written that way in the Criminal Code of Canada by the federal government. 60% don't get to decide what individuals do with their bodies. If 60% of Canadians wanted to harvest kidneys from healthy people against their wills, would you be standing on your soapbox suggesting we should do that? The entire reason we have a Charter of Rights and Freedoms is to protect individual freedoms from the tyranny of the majority.

[cybercoma]

Exactly the point that people are trying to make. There was no need for Trudeau to exclude that 60% from the Party and saying that these "people of conscience" are no longer welcome. It was for crass political reasons. Talk about politics of division. Harper's been smart enough to leave it alone.

He didn't say that either. You can be against abortion and still be pro-choice, you know, like Trudeau's father was. This isn't about MP's personal views. It's about being a government for everyone and that allows letting people make their own moral decisions about what to do with their own bodies. The government doesn't get to determine that you have to be hooked into another human being for 9 months against your will. The SCC already decided this, so all of your public opinion polls be damned, people have rights.

Don't like abortion? Then don't get one. But f'ck you if you're going to tell others what they should do with their bodies.

Edited September 20, 2014 by cybercoma

[Keepitsimple]

He didn't say that either. You can be against abortion and still be pro-choice, you know, like Trudeau's father was. This isn't about MP's personal views. It's about being a government for everyone and that allows letting people make their own moral decisions about what to do with their own bodies. The government doesn't get to determine that you have to be hooked into another human being for 9 months against your will. The SCC already decided this, so all of your public opinion polls be damned, people have rights.

Don't like abortion? Then don't get one. But f'ck you if you're going to tell others what they should do with their bodies.

So Trudeau is supporting "A woman's right to choose"......but if you are a woman who chooses to take the view that some restriction is required ( as with the majority of Canadian women who hold that view) - they are not welcome in the Liberal Party......or am I missing something?

[Keepitsimple]

So Trudeau is supporting "A woman's right to choose"......but if you are a woman who chooses to take the view that some restriction is required ( as with the majority of Canadian women who hold that view) - they are not welcome in the Liberal Party......or am I missing something?

So you think the governments of virtually every Western countries - many of whom are touted as being more progressive than Canada - you think they are living in Tyranny? Countries that have had mature debates and balanced the issues of the Right to Choose with protection of the fetus and health of the Mother.....you think their democratically arrived at legislation is a form of tyranny? Is that your position? Can you not see that here in Canada - it's not a question of a Woman's right to choose - it's a question of whether 100% Abortion on Demand - no questions asked - is the best course for our society. Trudeau thinks it is - the rest of the world disagrees.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Keepitsimple

[waldo]

it's not a question of a Woman's right to choose - it's a question of whether 100% Abortion on Demand - no questions asked - is the best course for our society. Trudeau thinks it is - the rest of the world disagrees.

bogus man! You've repeatedly tried this same ploy many times over. Step-up and categorically outline the so-called restrictions you want put into law... name it/them... specifically name the restriction(s).

[cybercoma]

So Trudeau is supporting "A woman's right to choose"......but if you are a woman who chooses to take the view that some restriction is required ( as with the majority of Canadian women who hold that view) - they are not welcome in the Liberal Party......or am I missing something?

Yeah. You're missing the fact that those women have a right to choose for themselves not others.

[Big Guy]

I do not know of anybody who embraces every policy of any political party. There may be a major issue which chooses one to vote a particular way or it could be a combination or it could be the personality of the local candidate.

On this right to choose issue, what I think the Liberal leader is saying is that if you want to run under the banner that you have to vote a particular way if you want the advantage of having Liberal party support. It is not as if he was promising that if/when they come into power they will make having children illegal.

What I like about this latest pronouncement is that it is an unequivocal announcement on the party policy. It may hurt or help the party but I wish the other parties were as up front on where they stand.

[Keepitsimple]

I do not know of anybody who embraces every policy of any political party. There may be a major issue which chooses one to vote a particular way or it could be a combination or it could be the personality of the local candidate.

On this right to choose issue, what I think the Liberal leader is saying is that........

If that's what you think he's saying.....then it's not very clear, is it?

[Argus]

Do you think Stephen Harper would allow open anti-Semites or racists to represent the CPC? I doubt it. I see choice on abortion as an ethical issue on par with racism.

That's a bullshit argument. Half the people in this country would like to see some regulations and laws on abortion. It's not extremist or offensive to hold that view, and equating it with racism or antisemitism is nonsense.

[Argus]

And I neglected to add in my previous post, I doubt we really want to re-visit out history were women are forced into back alleys with coat hangar "doctors"

Please do. Did that happen a lot in Canada? When?

[waldo]

If that's what you think he's saying.....then it's not very clear, is it?

Simple... do you think, or do you know, whether Harper "being very clear" on abortion means that your targeted focus on introducing 'restricted abortion law' will occur, or not, under Harper Conservative governance? Cause, like... I think not; accordingly, shouldn't your attention in this regard be directed at the leader of your favoured Conservative Party, one Stephen Harper? Yes?

[Argus]

Yeah. You're missing the fact that those women have a right to choose for themselves not others.

Well they get to choose for the fathers of their children...

[Keepitsimple]

Yeah. You're missing the fact that those women have a right to choose for themselves not others.

And you completely ignored your accusation that all those progressive Western nations are being governed under "tyranny" because of their democratic debate and acceptance of a reasonable balance between a Woman's right to choose and some minor restraint on Abortion. That is what you are saying, isn't it?

[eyeball]

It's not extremist or offensive to hold that view, and equating it with racism or antisemitism is nonsense.

Imposing that view and even threatening to impose it by forever keeping the issue simmering on a back burner somewhere is offensive. It reminds women that they'll never be free of the possibility they'll have to submit to someone else's will.

[Argus]

Imposing that view and even threatening to impose it by forever keeping the issue simmering on a back burner somewhere is offensive. It reminds women that they'll never be free of the possibility they'll have to submit to someone else's will.

Ah, yes, every woman I know of lives in terror that some day we might impose some sort of Swedish or French inspired anti-woman pogrom on them.