-TSS- Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 I think the conspiracy- theory was that the Ukrainian government shoot down the plane because they thought it was Putin's plane but after having realized their mistake placed the blame on the rebels. Very very implausible even for a conspiracy- theory but millions of people in Russia take it seriously. Quote
Argus Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 IT would be the colours of Red and Blue and White. Like the Russian flag. And you tell me if the can spot the difference at 30,000 feet. Up close it's obvious they are different. You can't see any colours if the plane is at 30,00 feet. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 Wow, they cant be professional now can they? That's not a word normally applied much to the Russian military anyway. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 I don't think it was the Russian rebels or Ukrainian forces. If Putin's plane was the intended target That is nothing but fantasy. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
cybercoma Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 I haven't read anything about this story. Do we know why this happened yet? Or is the internet still speculating? Quote
Argus Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 (edited) I haven't read anything about this story. Do we know why this happened yet? Or is the internet still speculating? Multiple conspiracy theories being floated by the Russians to try and show that it might somehow or other, if you really let your imagination run wild, be someone else's fault, rather than them. http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/russian-rebel-conspiracy-theory-passengers-already-dead.html Edited July 19, 2014 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
GostHacked Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 That is nothing but fantasy. Actually it's called speculation. Quote
-TSS- Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 The propaganda-mill is spinning around at full gear. The latest news is that the bodies of the accident have been looted. True or false, difficult to tell, but I wonder is it some thing about cultural differences as in western countries looting bodies is considered as extremely disgraceful when as the mindset in the former Soviet republics is that it is just stupid to leave good stuff lying around especially when the owners wont need it any more. Quote
Argus Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 Actually it's called speculation. Speculation without facts is fantasy. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 The propaganda-mill is spinning around at full gear. The latest news is that the bodies of the accident have been looted. True or false, difficult to tell, but I wonder is it some thing about cultural differences as in western countries looting bodies is considered as extremely disgraceful when as the mindset in the former Soviet republics is that it is just stupid to leave good stuff lying around especially when the owners wont need it any more. You mean Russians have no sense of morality? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
GostHacked Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 Speculation without facts is fantasy. Nah, it's still called speculation. The fantasy is that Ukraine or the rebels would have an advantage of taking down a commercial airliner. In fact it works against them. But my questions remains.... What is the advantage for Ukraine in shooting a passenger plane down? What is the advantage for the rebels in shooting a passenger plane down? What is the advantage for Russia in shooting a passenger plane down? Now what would be the advantage for each group in terms of shooting down Putin's plane and killing him? Quote
GostHacked Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 You mean Russians have no sense of morality? All Russians have no sense of morality? I thought we got beyond making broad generalizations. Quote
-1=e^ipi Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 (edited) Nah, it's still called speculation. The fantasy is that Ukraine or the rebels would have an advantage of taking down a commercial airliner. In fact it works against them. But my questions remains.... What is the advantage for Ukraine in shooting a passenger plane down? What is the advantage for the rebels in shooting a passenger plane down? What is the advantage for Russia in shooting a passenger plane down? Now what would be the advantage for each group in terms of shooting down Putin's plane and killing him? People make mistakes. The Pro-Russian rebels made a mistake and accidentally shot down a civilian airplane. How hard is that to understand? No motive is needed. Edited July 19, 2014 by -1=e^ipi Quote
GostHacked Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 People make mistakes. The Pro-Russian rebels made a mistake and accidentally shot down a civilian airplane. How hard is that to understand? No motive is needed. A motive will be created for it. And Russia will pay for it. Some are trying real hard to make Putin look really bad here. But don't mistake that for being apologetic for Putin as some here would believe. So why was this plane flying in a no fly zone? Quote
Smallc Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 (edited) So why was this plane flying in a no fly zone? It wasn't. It was at 33,000 feet. The airspace about 31,000 feet was deemed safe by Ukranian authorities. Obviously they were wrong. Edited July 20, 2014 by Smallc Quote
Signals.Cpl Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 I don't think it was the Russian rebels or Ukrainian forces. If Putin's plane was the intended target, and it were to be shot down, you'd see large things happening very quick. It's like these idiots with power want to start a new war. A new big war. This seems to me as a lame attempt to blame someone else for the actions of the separatists, doubtful anyone knew Putin was flying through the area that is if was real to begin with rather than an after thought to place the blame on Ukraine or their supporters. Ukraine has nothing to gain by shooting down a commercial airliner. They might gain something by shooting down Putin. But then you'd see a huge show of force from Russia. They have nothing to gain from shooting down a commercial liner nor do they have any reason to shoot down Putin, if he dies his successor will have a casus belli against Ukraine and if they were to fail it would also have virtually the same reason. The rebels have nothing to gain by shooting down a commercial airliner OR shooting down Putin.None of this really makes any sense. The separatists thought they were shooting down a big juicy Ukrainian target, shot it down and then realized it was a civilian liner and thus are trying to deflect some of the sh*t storm by blaming anyone and everyone but themselves and Russia. Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
Signals.Cpl Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 Not only. That the missile and crew are Russians was said by rebels in the telephone calls. You answer is wrong. Many military experts, including Russians have explained that the contingent comprising the rebel "army" are not capable to operate this equipment. And where can I see some of the experts? This is all fine but how do you prove that? Besides does it even matter? If it was the separatists operating a captured Ukrainian system with a crew of former conscripts or deserters the blame lies squarely with Russia, if it is a Russian crew and a Russian weapon system being under nominal separatists command puts the blame squarely on Russia. You have no idea about conscripts in Ukrainian army. They cannot be professionals by definition. They serve 9 to 12 months, while basic training requires 6 to 12 months. In AA missile units conscripts perform secondary duty. Qualified job is done by professional officers, who are trained for 5 years and have periodic exercises. Without exercises qualification is lost. In most armies with conscription basic training lasts 2-3 months with trade training lasting a few more months. Now what do we need to operate such a system? What is "qualified job"? I understand an officer is in overall command but ultimately it is likely a number of NCM's in the technician seat. And I am sorry but what is your obsession with exercises? What do you define as an exercise? Your answer is not realistic. Capturing a tank in the battle cannot be compared to stealing a AA missile launcher from a guarded base deep in the Ukrainian territory. Unless it was already in the region. What about from a guarded base inside separatist territory or near said territory? A disable AA missile vehicle can be theoretically repaired, but it requires: spare parts, repair personnel, repair facility including test equipment, time to do the job. Rebels can theoretically get spare parts. All the rest is practically impossible to have. And still, no missiles. 1) Russia has the spare parts. 2) Russia has the equipment. 3) Munitions are usually found near the platform that uses them. 4) Disabled could range from hiding the keys to gutting the system requiring total rebuild and anywhere in between. It is much more easier and practical to bring a vehicle from Russia. And it has been done. Not arguing that, but then it is also more demoralizing for the separatists to keep shooting down ukrainian planes with Ukrainian weapon systems. Again wether it was a Russian system or a captured Ukrainian system there is no doubt the separatists shot it down and Russia is still guilty as hell. Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
Signals.Cpl Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 Watch Ukrainian news about pro-Russian meetings. Per million of population those meeting can attract dozens of people. Watch Russian news about pro-Russian meeting. Per million of population those meeting can attract billions of people... whats your point? Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
Signals.Cpl Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 I think the conspiracy- theory was that the Ukrainian government shoot down the plane because they thought it was Putin's plane but after having realized their mistake placed the blame on the rebels. Very very implausible even for a conspiracy- theory but millions of people in Russia take it seriously. Because thats what they see from the news, and they are already fired up over Ukraine, easier to believe that once you already think Ukraine is the bad guy. Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
Signals.Cpl Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 That's not a word normally applied much to the Russian military anyway. Really? Or is it your sense of superiority making that assumption? Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
Signals.Cpl Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 I haven't read anything about this story. Do we know why this happened yet? Or is the internet still speculating? Most likely theory is that the separatists shot the plane down thinking it is a Ukrainian military plane. Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
On Guard for Thee Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 That’s assuming the Russians did it……..of course there has also been this report: http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/russian-source-claims-putin-was-intended-target-in-plane-disaster/503725.html Various conflicting reports obviously, and I hardly trust Russian state-owned media, but if this was true, it would certainly change the narrative. C'mon now, quoting the Moscow Times? Why not throw in one from RT as well! Quote
Signals.Cpl Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 You mean Russians have no sense of morality? What did you meet all 150 million of them? The same can be said about Americans, Canadians, British etc... Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
Signals.Cpl Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 Nah, it's still called speculation. The fantasy is that Ukraine or the rebels would have an advantage of taking down a commercial airliner. In fact it works against them. But my questions remains.... What is the advantage for Ukraine in shooting a passenger plane down? What is the advantage for the rebels in shooting a passenger plane down? What is the advantage for Russia in shooting a passenger plane down? Now what would be the advantage for each group in terms of shooting down Putin's plane and killing him? There is no advantage, for any of them unless they have set up the situation very carefully but even then if found out the repercussions would be bad. Most likely thing is that the separatists saw a plane, jumped to the conclusion it was a Ukrainian plane and shot it down. Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
Signals.Cpl Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 So why was this plane flying in a no fly zone? Was it a no fly zone? Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
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