jbg Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 The separatists thought they were shooting down a big juicy Ukrainian target, shot it down and then realized it was a civilian liner and thus are trying to deflect some of the sh*t storm by blaming anyone and everyone but themselves and Russia.That seems to be the way Occam's Razor cuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 I guess the problem is that Russia is Europe's energy source. Putin has a trump card to do whatever he wants and Europe can't say bleep. It's looking a lot like the 30's more and more. Europe could do something about that. Frack away. They don't have to make themselves helpless, but choose to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Thus far you have demonstrated the desire for reality of a man who sticks his fingers in his ears, closes his eyes, and goes "Lalalalalalala!" because he doesn't want to admit the harsh truth about reality. I will admit that there are times when I do stick my fingers into my ears - when I am distracted by the cheers of the political cheerleaders. I find that noise gets in the way of concentrating on the reality of what is really happening. Thank you for your comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 Hey in case you hadn't heard it, here's the latest knee slapper from RT. They are trying to convince Russians that the shot down MH 17 777 is actually the missing MH 370 777. Yeah they had it hidden in a US military base (somewhere) and then filled it with corpses and a bomb and then had it blow up over the Ukraine. Now I've heard some brain dead conspiracy theories in my day but this one is a hummer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 (edited) Russians or separatists? My understanding is there is no actual difference. The Russian "separatists" are essentially rabble except for Russian army elements, including advisers, officers, and organizers. However, if you mean territory, then it is Ukrainian territory currently controlled by the Russian government. Edited July 22, 2014 by Argus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 (edited) I will admit that there are times when I do stick my fingers into my ears - when I am distracted by the cheers of the political cheerleaders. I find that noise gets in the way of concentrating on the reality of what is really happening. Making an honest assessment of a situation, and deciding that one side is clearly the aggressor is not being a cheerleader. It's called having judgement. Refusing to make any judgement, regardless of evidence or logic does not make your words more learned or unbiased. It simply means you don't have the moral courage to condemn cruelty and evil. Edited July 22, 2014 by Argus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 (edited) Europe could do something about that. Frack away. They don't have to make themselves helpless, but choose to do so. Decisions made years ago coming back to haunt them. I agree they were morons to trust their energy supply to Russia, as if the Russians had turned in their autocratic mentality and were now going to be a democracy. It was predictable the Russians would once again resort to being a murderous aggressor nation, and they should have known better. Politicians, unfortunately, are not known for foresight. Unfortunately "I told you so" is not going to solve the current situation. Edited July 22, 2014 by Argus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 It makes no difference who pulled the trigger - it was the Russians that gave the rebels missiles capable of downing an aircraft at 10000m. Why? It is not as if that tech was needed in the fight against Ukraine. Actually thats not a given. Both Russia and Ukraine have these AAC missiles in their inventory and Rebel forces have overran a number of military installations in the Ukraine and gotten their hands on a lot of hardware. As for is it needed? Military planes can sometimes do fly at that altitude. Anyways this is war. The Russians know as well as the Americans that you can blow up an airliner, school, embassy, media outlet, and you just need to say "OOPS! COLLATERAL DAMAGE" and everything is ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASIP Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 My understanding is there is no actual difference. The Russian "separatists" are essentially rabble except for Russian army elements, including advisers, officers, and organizers. However, if you mean territory, then it is Ukrainian territory currently controlled by the Russian government. This is a correct description. There are simply no "genuine" separatists left, it's a bloody fighting, people get killed and wounded. Now Putin has to send more and more Russians there as a cannon fodder. All commanders are officers of the Russian Army with a two-star general as a chief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASIP Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 Rebel forces have overran a number of military installations in the Ukraine and gotten their hands on a lot of hardware. This is not true. Or I would like to see a confirmation of these fairy tales. And the most important question is: why would the Ukrainian army shoot on a civilian plane? On this particular plane, there are lots of them flying every day? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xul Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 What a moronic statement. The flight corridor has been in use for many years. Eight hundred aircraft passed through it in the week prior to the Russians shooting down the Malaysian plane. No one knew they had that capability, never having shown it before the Russians gave them the weapons for it. It's weird that Ukrainian government, or exactly its wire-puller Uncle Sam, knew nothing about the missile before the incident. Then all of a sudden, they began to know everything----even without any investigation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 It's weird that Ukrainian government, or exactly its wire-puller Uncle Sam, knew nothing about the missile before the incident. Then all of a sudden, they began to know everything----even without any investigation? Um, they did investigate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 Attempts to investigate have been and continue to be thwarted by the Russian rebels. Luckily the US has the technology to gather evidence on such things without "boots on the ground". Radar traces, satellite imagery etc. And as has been reported, they knew full well about BUK system in the area, they just didn't know it was going to be used on a commercial plane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexmac Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 It's weird that Ukrainian government, or exactly its wire-puller Uncle Sam, knew nothing about the missile before the incident. Then all of a sudden, they began to know everything----even without any investigation? You have undisputible proof of this from exhaustive research into the region I am guessing by your statement. As I said earlier , Russia use's the USA to justify what they are doing. It is always "well look at what the US did so what we do is the same and that makes it correct". Short sighted ignorance is what that is called. Most people buy into it because it is easy and does not take much effort to say or write. Has the USA done bad things , yes they have and it is all over there news , now tune into Russian media and listen . Hard to describe my frustration after living there and coming back here to listen to people who would rather talk alot about things they have no idea about but still try to pass as the expert on the area. Russia is not the USA and is closer to the former USSR . Now before replying please have some real facts to backup theories or accusations. This is going to effect us all in the very close future and I guarentee that if something is not done now to settle the war we will not like the results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xul Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 (edited) Attempts to investigate have been and continue to be thwarted by the Russian rebels. Luckily the US has the technology to gather evidence on such things without "boots on the ground". Radar traces, satellite imagery etc. And as has been reported, they knew full well about BUK system in the area, they just didn't know it was going to be used on a commercial plane. That's what I was trying to say. They just didn't know it was going to be used on a commercial plane. The radar operator of the missile didn't know the little green spot on the radar screen was a commercial plane. Somebody who pulled the trigger didn't know he was shooting a commercial plane.... Maybe those Ukrainian political leaders didn't know that missiles did have shot down passenger planes because they are idiots----any politicians who gets their countries into such mess should be considered as an idiot, but their American wire-puller should know that---because they made such mistake in person in 1988: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 American even has shot down their own military helicopter in Iraq, which was carrying some UN officials and that's why it made the news and we are able to know it. It's true that some experienced radar operators can distinguish plane types by the flickering of the spot on radar screen. Some advanced radar systems even have A.I. software to do the job. But none of these methods is mistake-free. MH17 was flying just 300 meters above restricted airspace. To a SAM, that means it's just 0.2 second to make it. Hardly to blame the pilot. His CEO must have told him to take short cut to save $ or he would be fired, and now he was fired along with his passengers. The fact that the airspace 300 meters beneath plane was restricted is interesting. I wonder any passenger would set foot in that plane if he or she knew that he or she was just 300 meters above the missile's ceiling. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696321/Why-MH17-flying-warzone-European-safety-watchdogs-warned-against-flying-Ukraine-April.html The Boeing 777 was flying just 300 metres above restricted airspace when it was shot down. Ukrainian authorities had barred aircraft from ground level to 32,000 feet but the downed aircraft was cruising at 33,000 feet, still within range of ground-to-air missiles, when it was hit. There was speculation that the doomed Flight MH17 had taken a short-cut across the disputed region of eastern Ukraine to save fuel. Edited July 22, 2014 by xul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 Hey in case you hadn't heard it, here's the latest knee slapper from RT. They are trying to convince Russians that the shot down MH 17 777 is actually the missing MH 370 777. Yeah they had it hidden in a US military base (somewhere) and then filled it with corpses and a bomb and then had it blow up over the Ukraine. Now I've heard some brain dead conspiracy theories in my day but this one is a hummer. It's plausible, mainly because MH370 has yet to be found. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 It's not in any way plausible. It's nothing more than tinfoil hat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 (edited) It's not in any way plausible. It's nothing more than tinfoil hat. If you haven't noticed, gosthacked often likes to try out reflective head coverings... Edited July 22, 2014 by Argus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 I've noticed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 It's not in any way plausible. It's nothing more than tinfoil hat. It's plausible, but may not be probable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 If you haven't noticed, gosthacked often likes to try out reflective head coverings... Why not just say tinfoil hat? Why not just tell me how you really feel about me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 It's plausible, but may not be probable. Not only is it not plausible it's completely improbable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 Not only is it not plausible it's completely improbable How so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 If that was MH370, where is MH17? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 Making an honest assessment of a situation, and deciding that one side is clearly the aggressor is not being a cheerleader. It's called having judgement. Refusing to make any judgement, regardless of evidence or logic does not make your words more learned or unbiased. It simply means you don't have the moral courage to condemn cruelty and evil. Some people need to label antagonists on either side of a conflict as good or bad. That allows them to provide biased blame and simple solutions to very complicated issues. They seem to feel that process to be a valid approach to deciding on a view and then attempting to rationalize and validate that view to others. I am not one of those people. Nor do I strive to ridicule or demean others and their views. My judgement is that there are no good guys or bad guys in most conflicts. Poroshenko is doing what he thinks is right for Ukrainians and remains very popular in the Ukraine. Putin is doing what he thinks is right for Russians and remains very popular in Russia and parts of East and Southern Ukraine. To vehemently support either one of them without considering the history, political nuances and support of both these leaders by their people is cheerleading. It is easy to be a cheerleader under the guise of moral courage but it is difficult, time consuming and a learning process to analyze objectively based on the reality of what transpires on the ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.