Court: Cuts to refugee health care “cruel and unusual” treatment

[Rue]

Cyber you realy do need to get out and find out what is going on in Canada and pull your head out of la la lan. The country and all its provinces face a health care crisis. The Fraser Institute describes are rising health care costs as sustainable and a bubble about to burst. 9 of 10 provinces spend the majority of their source revenues on health care. In the healthiest province Alberta they went up 17% in one year alone while in Nova Scotia 88 cents of the provincial tax goes to health care.

The demographic profile of Canada creates a huge crisis in terms of demand for services of our medical system. People will be aging and dying and living longer with lethal diseases in the next 10 to 20 years in a highly compacted and dense pattern.

When a country creates an immigration policy it has a fiscal obligation to ask who looks after the medical care of new immigrants and refugees and who will pay for it,.It is a question that has to be asked because Canada whether you like it or not has to assure its own citizens have access to

medical services before it can widen the coverage to non Canadians.

As it is you Cyber are quick ignore the problem without knowing any of the actual facts assuming the number 20,000 to 35,000,000 allows you to conclude we can absorb such a number every year with no problems. That's your inference or assumption with zero basis.

So the bottom line is you live in dream land where the government can just expand with no issues and its a limited bottomless pit.

The fact is it is not and taxes are rising because of medical costs both federally and provincially.

We have to ask questions you may not want to acknowledge Cyber such as who will pay?

I love it when someone says corporations and the rich. Right. What naïve thing to say.

If you tax businesses too high, people are put out of work. Some of you sheltered privileged socialists can't grasp that point-that in fact businesses keep people off welfare.

As much as some of you think our governments are not an unlimited bottomless pit.

Government services don't expand without consequences namely higher taxes and we are at the point now your governments are past the point of collecting taxes to pay off actual services. Those taxes are swallowed up by interest.

But hey who cares about fiscal deficits and the reality of government limitations. Not when you live in la la land.

[Rue]

Jacee with due respect if we were really concerned with Refugees we would send aid to refugee camps all over the world.

The refugee system in Canada today is a farse. It is in fact a short cut for people who want medical care immediately without waiting and have been taught by immigration consultants in their home countries how to work our system then return to their countries and bring others back to Canada and do the same.

The refugee system as it stands is bust. Its a source for cheap labour to clean toilets because unemployed Canadians won't.

Most refugees coming here seek free medical care or know any cheap labour job here under the table plus welfare and medical benefits is

compared to where they come from the lottery.

Now your liberal guilt feelings seem catered to as you think we are saving lives, and I am happy for you. The fact is the refugees continue to die int heir camps from cholera, diaheria, dehydration, lack of food.

The refugee system you may think is noble and saves lives but the reality is it does not. It simply facilitates economic migration by people who for the most part are poor but not refugees.

The fact is and you can go look for yourself from the UN stats, the majority of refugees of the world can't travel more then on their feet.

[Boges]

The real refugees are the people who can't afford a plane ticket to Canada.

[jacee]

My reference was to people who were too old to work and would have to depend on government and social services for health costs. I agree that all are entitled to basic life saving health care but I still feel that those who have been paying into our health system for many years should be given priority for non-crucial surgical programs and senior citizen housing.

Nobody gets priority in Canada for money reasons. Only for health reasons.

Love it or leave it!

I do not think it fair that the "non-productive" elderly who are brought into this country by children on the family reunification program be give second priority to certain social programs and elective surgery.

There are people who have not contributed a penny to our health system who are causing problems with waiting times for knee, hip etc, replacement surgeries. BTW - these cost our system about $10,000 a replacement.

Grandparents who provide child care while parents work ARE contributing ... and likely saving us money in child care subsidies.

To all those who denigrate the elderly as 'non-productive' ... pls sign up for your ice floe now.

We know ya wan-na!!

So now ya hafta!!

.

Edited July 7, 2014 by jacee

[Keepitsimple]

Too many emotional platitudes and political bias on this topic. I believe in the principles behind the legislation and hope the government can tweak it to accomplish those goals:

1) I agree that refugees should NOT get preferential healthcare. I don't get vision-care or dental care - why should a refugee? How did that ever end up in the coverage anyway?

2) Refugees that are turned down by the Refugee Tribunal are offered a plane ticket home and up to $2000 is support funding to find a job or start a business. If they choose to stay and appeal - most of their Health coverage stops. It's their choice.

3) "Refugees" that come from countries that are deemed to be safe and thus fail the claim are also denied health coverage after determination. Their hearings are expedited and Canada pays for their flight home. Some people can argue with the DCO list of countries but the reasoning behind it is sound....

And lest we forget - we cannot take everybody in - and for every undeserving refugee that slips through to take advantage of our generosity - a REAL refugee is left out.....and that's the real cruelty.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Keepitsimple

[Big Guy]

...

To all those who denigrate the elderly as 'non-productive' ... pls sign up for your ice floe now. We know ya wan-na!! So now ya hafta!!

.

Sorry, I don't like ice. I already have a cave reserved in the side of a mountain where the government has been told to forward my last pension check.

[jacee]

Too many emotional platitudes and political bias on this topic. I believe in the principles behind the legislation and hope the government can tweak it to accomplish those goals:

1) I agree that refugees should NOT get preferential healthcare. I don't get vision-care or dental care - why should a refugee? How did that ever end up in the coverage anyway?

2) Refugees that are turned down by the Refugee Tribunal are offered a plane ticket home and up to $2000 is support funding to find a job or start a business. If they choose to stay and appeal - most of their Health coverage stops. It's their choice.

3) "Refugees" that come from countries that are deemed to be safe and thus fail the claim are also denied health coverage after determination. Their hearings are expedited and Canada pays for their flight home. Some people can argue with the DCO list of countries but the reasoning behind it is sound....

And lest we forget - we cannot take everybody in - and for every undeserving refugee that slips through to take advantage of our generosity - a REAL refugee is left out.....and that's the real cruelty.

You are avoiding mentioning the ones in detention who failed because they aren't considered at personal risk, but their countries aren't considered safe enough to deport them to.

You haven't mentioned the ones who appealed due to risk of torture, worked here for years and supported themselves, got deported, got tortured, and then were allowed to come back ... only if they paid the cost of their deportation!

Some friggen 'family values' Harper has!!

.

[westguy]

We cannot be the saviour to the entire world. That is totally impractical. Can anyone explain why refugees were getting better and more health care than tax paying Canadians?

[Keepitsimple]

You are avoiding mentioning the ones in detention who failed because they aren't considered at personal risk, but their countries aren't considered safe enough to deport them to.

You haven't mentioned the ones who appealed due to risk of torture, worked here for years and supported themselves, got deported, got tortured, and then were allowed to come back ... only if they paid the cost of their deportation!

Some friggen 'family values' Harper has!!

.

So - back to the intent of the legislation that I laid out - do you agree with the intent of the three pillars? Is it just these types of exceptions that have you so vehement - if in fact they occur in any frequency? Again - can we stick to the substance of the legislation and it's intent? Or do you simply agree that regardless of cost - regardless of our own difficulties in funding healthcare - anyone who lands in Canada should have total healthcare coverage - including coverage that regular Canadians do not receive, right up until their final appeal and they are on the plane home? Is that your position?

Edited July 8, 2014 by Keepitsimple

[jacee]

We cannot be the saviour to the entire world. That is totally impractical. Can anyone explain why refugees were getting better and more health care than tax paying Canadians?

If they could work they'd get the same.

The man who was sent back to be tortured had been working here for 8 years.

But people are being held in detention in violation of international law, not allowed to work ... or go home.

.

Edited July 8, 2014 by jacee

[Michael Hardner]

That's not the question. The question is "how much money does the legislation save?" The court's investigation found that the legislation will save absolutely nothing. Even if it did save money, one needs to ask whether it's more important to save a few bucks in tax dollars or provide healthcare to people that have been through unimaginable stress and danger. There's a moral obligation here that trumps money, imo.

Your argument is sound, but we've heard it before and there are many people who don't buy it. The question they have is about 'costs'. People are asking that question, and basing their arguments on costs. But once you ask the question, you find that the program costs very little.

Talking about costs is important, and we should do it more IMO.

[Michael Hardner]

But hey who cares about fiscal deficits and the reality of government limitations. Not when you live in la la land.

Fair enough, but you yourself probably have a lot of biases about healthcare too.

If we're going to fix the problem, then both sides of the issue have to open their minds to new solutions including higher taxes and two-tier.

As for the subject at hand, $15M a year is almost nothing in the grand scheme of things.

[Michael Hardner]

The refugee system as it stands is bust. Its a source for cheap labour to clean toilets because unemployed Canadians won't.

Sorry ? I thought Refugees did not work in Canada ? Cite please.

[scribblet]

Refugees can apply for an Employment Authorization after about 3 months.

http://www.fraserinstitute.org/uploadedFiles/fraser-ca/Content/research-news/research/publications/immigration-and-the-canadian-welfare-state-2011.pdf

http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/05/17/immigrants-cost-23b-a-year-fraser-institute-report/

Migrants to Canada cost the federal government as much as $23-billion annually and “impose a huge fiscal burden on Canadian taxpayers,” according to a think-tank report released Tuesday that was immediately criticized as telling only part of the story.

The Fraser Institute report (download the PDF here or see it below) says newcomers pay about half as much in income taxes as other Canadians but absorb nearly the same value of government services, costing taxpayers roughly $6,051 per immigrant and amounting to a total annual cost of somewhere between $16.3-billion and $23.6-billion.

[Michael Hardner]

The Fraser Institute report (download the PDF here or see it below) says newcomers pay about half as much in income taxes as other Canadians but absorb nearly the same value of government services, costing taxpayers roughly $6,051 per immigrant and amounting to a total annual cost of somewhere between $16.3-billion and $23.6-billion.

ie. They make 1/2 as much... and the part that they ignored is the economic benefit they provide by supplying labour to their employers, by supplying demand for goods and services.

The implication seems to be that the economy would be better off without this 'cost' but that's not proven.

[Boges]

How come Refugees got Dental and Drug bennies and actual Canadians citizens don't?

Edited July 8, 2014 by Boges

[Michael Hardner]

How come Refugees got Dental and Drug bennies and actual Canadians citizens don't?

That part doesn't make sense to me.

[Big Guy]

That part doesn't make sense to me.

I assume that it works on the theory that if you alleviate the cause of a potential major problem that you save money in the long run. Dental disease allowed to run its course is very expensive once it gets to the surgery stage. Drugs will keep the individual from getting sicker and having to be hospitalized - a very expensive proposition.

That is only my assumption.

[guyser]

How come Refugees got Dental and Drug bennies and actual Canadians citizens don't?

CDN citizens do have access to dental and drug bennies IF ON social assitance. This is the same as refugees ( but no Prov assistance, only Fed). If sponsored refugees they do not have access but do have OHIP

Refugee claimants do not have access to OHIP (or any Prov health plan) but can apply for to IFH for some medical stuff, basically emergency care only.

[jacee]

Read what I said again. I did not claim health care costs billions and billions. I said that the decision of the courts to accord anyone who steps across the border, even illegally, full Charter rights, cost billions and billions of dollars.

Cite pls.

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Edited July 8, 2014 by jacee

[guyser]

Cite pls.

.

Do you really need a cite to know that anyone on Canadian soil is protected by the Charter?

[jacee]

Boges, on 08 Jul 2014 - 09:37 AM, said

How come Refugees got Dental and Drug bennies and actual Canadians citizens don't?

That part doesn't make sense to me.

There have been some myths propagated about vision and dental care for refugee applicants (and welfare recipients too btw).

It was true that refugee applicants got the same prescription, vision and dental benefits as citizens on welfare.

Vision: How the hell can someone get a job and support themselves if they can't see and just need some cheap prescription glasses? Seems like a good investment to me, to get them into the labour force instead of stuck on welfare. They're not getting the expensive, graduated no glare lenses either.

Dental = emergency only, and only when some dentist decides s/he feels like doing a charity appt.

On welfare/refugee benefits, if you have an abcessed tooth IT GETS PULLED.

That's it, that's all. No root canals, no caps,bridges, false teeth ... just cheap (mercury) fillings and extractions only, emergency only, and only when a dentist feels like it.

(Same for prisoners, btw.)

IE these are not at all like the 'dental benefits' we might have through our jobs.

Harper and co. have intentionally snowed people on this, imo. Disgusting, imo.

.

Edited July 8, 2014 by jacee

[Argus]

Cite pls.

.

Don't you just hate it when you publicly flounce off and swear to ignore someone and then can't help reading them anyway and wanting to make demands and arguments?

The Singh decision was the one in which the Supreme Court decided that the Charter applied to anyone who arrived here, illegal immigrant, phoney refugee, or whatever. They all get lawyers, welfare and health care at our expense.

[cybercoma]

That part doesn't make sense to me.

It doesn't? Canada is providing Humanitarian Aid by accepting refugees, but it doesn't make sense that they get drugs and dental when they arrive? These benefits are not in perpetuity.

[Argus]

The real problem with the refugee system is the burden imposed by the courts which allows them lengthy periods of time for legal challengs for any decision. We cannot, in other words, meet them at the airport, have them taken to a hearing, and then either send them on or keep them. The court decided the refugee determination process has to be 'fair', which meant designed by lawyers, which meant lengthy, complicated, and full of forms and paperwork. The court also decided refugees, or would-be refugees, have the rights to appeal any decisions through the courts. All of this can take years, and the courts won't let us keep them in camps during this time either.

Hence the health care, even for refugees who had been turned down, but are in the process of their lengthy and expensive legal appeals process (all paid for by Canada, of course).

Edited July 8, 2014 by Argus