Big Guy Posted June 18, 2014 Report Posted June 18, 2014 Yes i do, very much so.... ....one they never had when under taliban rule... Thank you for your views. I always appreciate a civil and intelligent sharing of an opinion different to mine. My opinion remains that the Taliban and/or ISIS or whatever other group that we are currently fighting are somehow not human. They are fathers, brothers, grandfathers and sons - just like us. They bleed, feel pain, love their children and their wives - just like us. They mourn the deaths of their relatives and get very angry at these deaths when killed by foreign troops - just like us. They resent foreigners on their soil dictating their lives - not like us at all - we are the interlopers. I cannot believe that there is some kind or "evil" chromosome or "bloodthirsty" gene that creates these "monsters. I understand our military concept of never leaving a soldier behind. That is a very proud tradition. I also understand when a persons child, or mother, or father, or brother, or uncle or cousin or ... is killed as "collateral damage" during a drone strike or a poorly targeted missile or bomb. I can understand the rage of seeing family members killed and their tradition of revenging the killing of a family member. In that part of the world the family units are very large and a theory exists that for every "enemy" person killed we create 10 potential suicide bombers. The numbers seem to give credence to that theory. If you are indeed military then I also understand that you do what you are ordered to do and what you think is right. I also think these "suicide bombers, rugheads, scumbags and terrorists" also believe what they are doing is also right and in their case in defence of their country. We will never defeat a population which is ready to die to defend their families and country. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
monty16 Posted June 18, 2014 Report Posted June 18, 2014 I do understand that demeaning, ridiculing and dehumanizing a whole population is an effective means of rationalizing military action against them. This is done consciously in an attempt to convince soldiers to kill their “enemy”. The “slant eyed yellow menace” and the “murdering Huns” of WWII served to sooth the conscience of those who find killing to be distasteful. It made the obliteration of 200,000 old men, women and children in Hiroshima and Nagasaki appear acceptable. The process continues with General Rick Hilliers, “ These are detestable murderers and scumbags, I'll tell you that right up front. They detest our freedoms, they detest our society, they detest our liberties”. These are the same detestable murderers and scumbags who will be part of the Afghanistan government and with whom the Americans are negotiating and trading prisoners. I suggest that lumping everyone in a society as having the same common negative trait is not only inaccurate but also dangerous. We cannot begin to establish relationships with others on this earth if we do not learn to understand them and respect who they are and what caused them to live the way they do. Excellent Big Guy! Here's a little bit of subtlety to go with it. They don't value human life the way we do. Arab mothers don't cry when their babies (some full grown) die. They eat dogs They eat cats They eat rats Many don't even have indoor plumbing! Now who needs a better reason to bomb them than that? The simplistic reaction to actions of a society that we do not understand is to look at them as a homogeneous collection of "ignorants" or “thugs” or “criminals” or “fanatics” or “murderers” or whatever term we can use to dehumanize them. We can then just dismiss them as having some human behavioural aberration and rationalize killing them. As Sun Tzu observed many years ago: “So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss. If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose. If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.” We have been endangering ourselves for many years. Quote
RajanRanjan Posted June 23, 2014 Report Posted June 23, 2014 Terrorism in Pakistan is growing fastly and terroristial attacks are increasing in this nation. I think that pakistan is also responsible for this because Pakistan use terrorist against India as his foreign policy. Firstly he supported terrorist against India but now those terrorist groups are attacking on Pakistan. For this, Pakistan is only responsible. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted June 23, 2014 Report Posted June 23, 2014 Firstly he supported terrorist against India but now those terrorist groups are attacking on Pakistan. Who is 'he' ? Mamnoon Hussain ? Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
monty16 Posted June 23, 2014 Report Posted June 23, 2014 (edited) Watch for those who pretend to throw up their hands in frustration and use the pretence of 'them' not valuing life', not being the same as us, etc. Ignorants, thugs, criminals, fanatics, murderers, or not the same as us. These are some of the descriptions, but no all, that are used by those who have been propagandized into being able to justify murder by the US military that is being carried out all over the world. I'm only trying to keep it front and center in the spotlight of global politics. At least it might embarrass those on this forum who constantly use the tactic. Edited June 23, 2014 by monty16 Quote
The_Squid Posted June 24, 2014 Report Posted June 24, 2014 Who is 'he' ? Mamnoon Hussain ? I think the 'he' is the country of Pakistan. I don't think English is this poster's first language. At least that's how I read it. Quote
Signals.Cpl Posted June 24, 2014 Report Posted June 24, 2014 You may be absolutely correct because it is difficult to compare what actually happened with what could (or would) have happened. I believe the theory that we took thousands of civilian Japanese lives to save more thousands of Japanese lives will continue to be controversial unless more detailed information from the Japanese side during that period becomes available. Read about the civilian casualties in the battles for Saipan and Okinawa during World War Two and tell me what more do you need? Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
Army Guy Posted June 24, 2014 Report Posted June 24, 2014 Thank you for your views. I always appreciate a civil and intelligent sharing of an opinion different to mine. My opinion remains that the Taliban and/or ISIS or whatever other group that we are currently fighting are somehow not human. They are fathers, brothers, grandfathers and sons - just like us. They bleed, feel pain, love their children and their wives - just like us. They mourn the deaths of their relatives and get very angry at these deaths when killed by foreign troops - just like us. They resent foreigners on their soil dictating their lives - not like us at all - we are the interlopers. Al Qaeda was an intergrated part of the Taliban military force, it was used to secure and fight the enemies of Afghanistan.....do you think that the Taliban Chain of command did not know or even sanction Al Qaeda activities...such as 911,.....Al Qaeda brought this war to the US, remember the crashing of those air liners, killing more than 3000.... It was them that took this to another level....they knew the US would react with military force, they knew the US would hunt them down, regardless of where they were. they though they could win some sort of victory, and they knew it would be costly....and yet they were willing to pay that price, just to shed some US blood, with the bonus of killing other westerns soldiers in the process.... You can try and defend them as other human beings, but when it boils down to it, they are murders , scumbags....who also happen to fathers , with feelings for family....but thats where it ends, a normal human does not force a small boy of 5 to strap on a explosive device and peddle his bike towards western soldiers, nor do they force another father to do the same because they have his family, and to ensure their survival he does it....and now his family is without a bread winner, lets not talk about the victims in this war.....most of all Civilian Afghan cas were caused by taliban or terrorists......How does that help out their countrymen Most of the terrorists were foreigners as well from all across the ME, they did not give to shits about the people of Afghan they just wanted to kill US and coalition soldiers..... The intial stages when the US and coalition forces went to war we did invade, we did remove the taliban regime....and forced the Terrorist to find a new home.....but lets not forget, it was the Same US and coalition forces that stuck around to ensure the Afghan people got a chance to vote.....it was the Afghan people that voted in their own government leader.....it was then they asked NATO to stay help them rebuild......It was the elected Government of AFGHAN that decided that the Talban, and terrorist were bad, and needed NATO 's help in providing peace..... The Taliban and the rest of the 16 or more terrorist groups don't want what is best for the Afghan people they want the Afghan population to control, to feed their desire for total control, to them it was sunadys at the soccer games to watch hepless Afghan's be exicuted to them they were nothing more than play things to do with they wanted.....Nice guys and yet some in North America feel sorry for them.....Like i said before i have no regrets.....we were invited , first 9/11, then by the elected government.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Argus Posted June 24, 2014 Report Posted June 24, 2014 What is untrue about his post? Your disgust says nothing about that. Why are you even bothering to reply? You know nothing intelligent will come back at you. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted June 24, 2014 Report Posted June 24, 2014 (edited) I don't have the time or the patience to explain it to you. But if you read the applicable posts and make a try on your own to understand then I will perhaps get involved. Oh now there's a good motivator! Edited June 24, 2014 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted June 24, 2014 Report Posted June 24, 2014 I do understand that demeaning, ridiculing and dehumanizing a whole population is an effective means of rationalizing military action against them. Unfortunately, what you don't seem to understand is basic English. My entire post referenced the elites in Pakistan and India, and their attitude towards the mass of the population who are largely poor, unsophisticated and helpless to do anything about their circumstances. Do you think the people of India would rather have nuclear warships instead of toilets? Do you think they have much of a choice? Do you think the people in Pakistan want to have bombs going off all over the place, and constant assasinations? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted June 24, 2014 Report Posted June 24, 2014 ISIS is a well organized (with an AP) that has collected $millions and understands their people. With their acquisitions (spoils of war) they are collecting as they waltz through Northern Iraq they are estimated to be worth over $2 billion. They provide funding for the families of their soldiers who have been killed and provide a social and financial blanket for their followers. We are still being told that they are "terrorists" and "thugs" and "murderers" but they are being treated as "liberators" by the Sunni population in the North. Uh huhhh. You read that on one of those moonbat web sites? Treated as liberators, eh? Funny how the UN is calling this the greatest flow of refugees in the world since WW2. But what do THEY know compared to some Canadian guy who read something on a nutty web site. Of course, they're liberators! And if they're crucifying Christians and murdering prisoners, well hey, that's just part of the evil western imperialist conspiracy to make them look bad! You know who else is generous with their supporters? The drug cartels. They spend money on buying the loyalty of people around them. And the mafia takes care of the families of their people who get killed or imprisoned. Does that impress you too? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Army Guy Posted June 24, 2014 Report Posted June 24, 2014 I also understand when a persons child, or mother, or father, or brother, or uncle or cousin or ... is killed as "collateral damage" during a drone strike or a poorly targeted missile or bomb. I can understand the rage of seeing family members killed and their tradition of revenging the killing of a family member. In that part of the world the family units are very large and a theory exists that for every "enemy" person killed we create 10 potential suicide bombers. The numbers seem to give credence to that theory. If you are indeed military then I also understand that you do what you are ordered to do and what you think is right. I also think these "suicide bombers, rugheads, scumbags and terrorists" also believe what they are doing is also right and in their case in defence of their country. We will never defeat a population which is ready to die to defend their families and country. If the numbers proved anything, then there should be more anti Taliban people on the ground, as they have killed more afghan civilians than all of NATO put together.... Alot of these scumabgs were not from Afghan, but from around the muslim world....they did not care about Afghan and their problems they just wanted to fight.... We have and we will again....defeat all our enemies..... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Big Guy Posted June 24, 2014 Report Posted June 24, 2014 Unfortunately ... assasinations? When you begin posts with; “Unfortunately, what you don't seem to understand is basic English.” and “Uh huhhh. You read that on one of those moonbat web sites?” Why would you expect a civil response? Because I try to only respond in a civil manner, I am unable to respond to your questions. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Big Guy Posted June 24, 2014 Report Posted June 24, 2014 If the numbers proved anything, ...We have and we will again....defeat all our enemies..... I hope so. I also hope that we are a little more selective as to which enemy and under what conditions. I have always respected General Colin Powell and have read much of his work. I fully agree with his conditions of military confrontation. I also believe in the Powell Doctrine: "The Powell Doctrine states that a list of questions all have to be answered affirmatively before military action is taken by the United States: Is a vital national security interest threatened? Do we have a clear attainable objective? Have the risks and costs been fully and frankly analyzed? Have all other non-violent policy means been fully exhausted? Is there a plausible exit strategy to avoid endless entanglement? Have the consequences of our action been fully considered? Is the action supported by the American people? Do we have genuine broad international support?" If we had followed that policy in regards to Canada in Afghanistan we would have not expended all that blood and treasure. Thank you for your response. I always find it informative discussing an issue with someone opposed to my point of view. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Argus Posted June 24, 2014 Report Posted June 24, 2014 Do you still believe that the Talban are diabolical fanatics intent on suppressing their people? Historically, they were the few people in the village who showed some interest in education. They were then sent to Madras to study religion and came back to the villages as their spiritual leaders, judges, advisors etc. When did they become scumbags, murderers, cowards and power hungry dictators? You clearly know virtually nothing about the madrassas of Pakistan (or elsewhere). But in short, much of the world's terror and Islamic religious fundamentalism can be traced to these madrassas, particularly in the last twenty five years. These are not schools in the traditional sense, nor even the traditional Islamic studies schooles. Students there learn virtually nothing about anything but the Koran. They learn no science, no math, no history or geography. They barely learn to read. They sit and they read a particular section of the Koran over and over, reciting it all day long, memorizing it. Then do the same again the next day. The type of Islam taught is very narrow, very austere, very focussed. It is the Wahabi sect, which is no surprise because Saudi Arabia has funnelled billions of dollars into these schools over the past twenty five years, not just in Pakistan, but in places like Indonesia, Nigeria Uzbekistan, Malaysia and Lebanon. Anywhere the governments of poor countries wouldn't question a foreign government and its charities pouring money into creating "Islamic schools" for the poor. Those children are taught, brainwashed, really, a very rigid, fundamentalist view of Islam which focusses on orthodoxy, and in training not scholars but zealots who will fight in the defence of Islam - their Islam. And the rise of Islamic extremism around the world has coincided with the propogation of these madrassas. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
monty16 Posted June 24, 2014 Report Posted June 24, 2014 (edited) Those children are taught, brainwashed, really, a very rigid, fundamentalist view of Islam which focusses on orthodoxy, and in training not scholars but zealots who will fight in the defence of Islam - their Islam.And so the West gives them something to defend against. Does anybody in the right mind still think that they would be the least concerned with what we are doing in North America if we didn't give them cause to be concerned. And so the rhetoric goes, that it's Islam we need to protect their people against. Or in a more rhetorical manner, we need to help the women who wear the burquas, even though they want to wear them. Because it's a part of their religious beliefs that we don't want to accept. It's all cheap rhetoric because all we really want is a reason to go to war with them. Be careful of how you phrase your own rhetoric because sometimes the truth comes through quite accidentally. Edited June 24, 2014 by monty16 Quote
overthere Posted June 24, 2014 Report Posted June 24, 2014 Unfortunately, what you don't seem to understand is basic English. My entire post referenced the elites in Pakistan and India, and their attitude towards the mass of the population who are largely poor, unsophisticated and helpless to do anything about their circumstances. Do you think the people of India would rather have nuclear warships instead of toilets? Do you think they have much of a choice? Do you think the people in Pakistan want to have bombs going off all over the place, and constant assasinations? Your comparison of India an Pakistan has no validity. You are obviously not aware that India is a fast growing economy, and that includes a burgeoning middle class. Pakistan is a monotheistic Islamic nation, India is incredibly diverse ethnically and religiously . India is an actual functioning democracy, Pakistan is..... Do indians have a choice? Yes they do, and they exercise it enthusiastically and frequently in elections and governments. Compare Pakistan to countries of similarly sized economies and vaguely similar societies, like Egypt, Algeria, Kazahkstan or Nigeria. Quote Science too hard for you? Try religion!
Argus Posted June 24, 2014 Report Posted June 24, 2014 Your comparison of India an Pakistan has no validity. You are obviously not aware that India is a fast growing economy, and that includes a burgeoning middle class. Pakistan is a monotheistic Islamic nation, India is incredibly diverse ethnically and religiously . India is an actual functioning democracy, Pakistan is..... Do indians have a choice? Yes they do, and they exercise it enthusiastically and frequently in elections and governments. Compare Pakistan to countries of similarly sized economies and vaguely similar societies, like Egypt, Algeria, Kazahkstan or Nigeria. More than half of Indians have no toilets in their homes, and garbage is strewn everywhere. Sorry, but that's not something likely to impress most people with their 'burgeoning economy'. Its highly corrupt government funnels masses of money into the pockets of the political and industrial elites while its people literally squat in the streets to relieve themselves. It's new Prime Minister is a man who was inadmissible to both Canada and the United States only a few months ago due to his connection with mass murder and religious extremism. Is India better off than Pakistan? Sure, but not by that much, and the religious extremists in the new government could reopen the violence between the various religious groups there. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
monty16 Posted June 25, 2014 Report Posted June 25, 2014 More than half of Indians have no toilets in their homes, and garbage is strewn everywhere. Sorry, but that's not something likely to impress most people with their 'burgeoning economy'. Its highly corrupt government funnels masses of money into the pockets of the political and industrial elites while its people literally squat in the streets to relieve themselves. It's new Prime Minister is a man who was inadmissible to both Canada and the United States only a few months ago due to his connection with mass murder and religious extremism. Is India better off than Pakistan? Sure, but not by that much, and the religious extremists in the new government could reopen the violence between the various religious groups there. You sure don't pull any punches when you show your disdain for Indians. I would imagine that any people who differ from you would also be considered worthless and uncivilized too. Showing such deep seated hate and disdain for people only because they don't have toilets says a lot about you. Is that your 'peace and order' schtick you're trying to hide behind. Peace, Order, and Good Government. It sounds to me that you're really advocating war and unrest, disorder over harmony, and a government that dictates your terms to others. I've found that those who take the time to profess their preferences in the way you do are usually the very ones who would support the complete opposite. You only want to compare Western society with everyone else and there are no shades of grey with you. . It's a learned thing. It's nurture over nature. Nobody's born that way. Quote
Argus Posted June 25, 2014 Report Posted June 25, 2014 You sure don't pull any punches when you show your disdain for Indians. India's society, actually. I would imagine Indeed. Your posts are often very imaginative. Just no facts in them. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
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