Jobs Lost During the Recession Have Not Returned

[WWWTT]

The government takes industry's word about the skills shortage when determining whether or not they can bring in foreign workers. Your characterization of youth as "self-important narcissistic wimps [who] have no critical thought process" is not only agist garbage, but relies on the word of industry that has a vested interest in claiming they can't find qualified labour.

There is completely no labour shortage in Canada! All fabricated.

What there is a shortage of is corporations and business paying the fair market value!

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

You cherry picked a start date and proceed to make the claim that there is a huge problem because they have not returned to the levels at the start date. The trouble is the start date was at the peak of a bubble and the drop could be the result of a healthy deflation of that bubble. The long term data would give us the information necessary to assess whether the abnormal situation was in 2007 or today.

Regardless, it proves that the conservatives are bad custodians of the economy.

Using data that proves that is fair game!

Go ahead, try to rip apart the data. But you rather just eliminate the data.

WWWTT

[TimG]

Regardless, it proves that the conservatives are bad custodians of the economy.

It shows nothing because no one has established that a higher work force participation means the economy is doing better. Depending on the reasons for the drop, a low participation rate could be a good thing.

The unemployment numbers capture people who want work who can't find it. That number is down.

Work force participation tells us nothing about why people are not working and how many of them are not participating by choice. Therefore no conclusions can be drawn from a drop - especially when the unemployment are down too.

Edited May 9, 2014 by TimG

[Vancouver King]

Electing a government who works on behalf of working/middle class Canadians instead of corporations/cronies would help. Only a complicit gov't would tolerate the abuses of the temporary workers program and shrug off a dismal jobs report like todays. The reason is simple - they just don't give a damn.

[Shady]

The legal manufacturing and sale of all narcotics would create jobs, so should we allow it? Sucking our fresh surface and ground water bodies dry and selling it to China and the US would create jobs, so is that a good thing?Mortgaging the future for short term profits is rarely a good decision.

Keystone isn't at all mortgaging out future. That's complete hyperbole. But it's typical from the anti-growth alarmist side of the debate.

[Shady]

And the other 605,000 jobs we're still short?

Like I've already, without a strong American economy it's going to be difficult to significantly and quickly cut into those losses. Keystone would certainly help though. I know it's not a single project that will net 700,000 jobs, but those don't exist.

Until a new regime is in charge of economic and regulatory policy, the American economy will continue to be depressed. Which isn't good for us.

[WWWTT]

It shows nothing because no one has established that a higher work force participation means the economy is doing better. Depending on the reasons for the drop, a low participation rate could be a good thing.

The unemployment numbers capture people who want work who can't find it. That number is down.

Work force participation tells us nothing about why people are not working and how many of them are not participating by choice. Therefore no conclusions can be drawn from a drop - especially when the unemployment are down too.

So you're saying that the unemployed whom have given up is a good thing?!?!?!?!

Man you're doing a better job at making the conservatives look bad than I am, my hat's off to you!

WWWTT

[TimG]

So you're saying that the unemployed whom have given up is a good thing?!?!?!?!

Show me evidence that those people who have left the workforce are unemployed who have given up. There are many reasons to leave the workforce (early retirement, raising kids, schooling) so as far as I am concerned that statement is nothing but crap you made up to rationalize your predetermined position. Edited May 9, 2014 by TimG

[WWWTT]

Show me evidence that those people who have left the workforce are unemployed who have given up. There are many reasons to leave the workforce (early retirement, raising kids, schooling) so as far as I am concerned that statement is nothing but crap you made up to rationalize your predetermined position.

Can you show me evidence that people leaving the work force is a good thing?

When I last checked, people not working=bad for the economy!

WWWTT

[TimG]

Can you show me evidence that people leaving the work force is a good thing?

I just said that no claims can be made on this data. You are the one making the claim that it is bad thing.

It is up to you to support your your claim.

When I last checked, people not working=bad for the economy!

Based on what? The conversation you had with your dog?

There is no automatic connection between the health of the economy and a 2-3% shift in the workforce.

Edited May 9, 2014 by TimG

[cybercoma]

I just said that no claims can be made on this data. You are the one making the claim that it is bad thing.

It is up to you to support your your claim.

Based on what? The conversation you had with your dog?

There is no automatic connection between the health of the economy and a 2-3% shift in the workforce.

The population is increasing.

The number of jobs available is decreasing.

The number of people actively looking for work goes down.

I think most people could paint by numbers here and figure out whether this combination of things is good or bad.

[TimG]

I think most people could paint by numbers here and figure out whether this combination of things is good or bad.

IOW - you have no evidence to back up your assumption.

BTW- How is it going coming up with the non-cherry picked long term data so we can put the drop in the proper context?

Should I assume you don't want to look for it cause you are afraid it will undermine your talking point?

Edited May 10, 2014 by TimG

[WestCoastRunner]

without a strong American economy it's going to be difficult to significantly and quickly cut into those losses.

I can't believe I'm agreeing with Shady. However, I think Hillary will be great to help with this issue!

A strong american economy is absolutely necessary for us to cut our job losses. Almost every company I have worked for has been dependent on the U.S. demand for our products. No doubt about it!

[bush_cheney2004]

A majority of Canadians wanted President Obama re-elected, complete with protectionist policies and KXL obstruction. Cognitive dissonance...north of the border. Continued dependence on the sluggish U.S. economy for jobs growth in Canada is wishful thinking at best.

[Shady]

A majority of Canadians wanted President Obama re-elected, complete with protectionist policies and KXL obstruction. Cognitive dissonance...north of the border. Continued dependence on the sluggish U.S. economy for jobs growth in Canada is wishful thinking at best.

Yep, Canadians love Mr. Obama and disliked Mr. Bush even though Bush was much better for Canadian economic policies. But unfortunately depending on a strong American economy isn't wishful thinking, it's a necessity for us and absolute reality.

[WWWTT]

I just said that no claims can be made on this data. You are the one making the claim that it is bad thing.

It is up to you to support your your claim.

Based on what? The conversation you had with your dog?

There is no automatic connection between the health of the economy and a 2-3% shift in the workforce.

And who's going to support those 2-3%?

Your debate position assumes that nobody is thinking, no one is adding up what it could mean!

Doesn't look good for Harper. But for die hard conservatives, it won't matter.

WWWTT

[TimG]

And who's going to support those 2-3%?

You have no data that says they need to be supported. The number includes early retirees, stay at home parents and students. The numbers mean nothing unless you understand why they have changed.

Your debate position assumes that nobody is thinking, no one is adding up what it could mean!

Your debate position is the numbers can only mean what you think they mean because it suits your political prejudices. All I am doing is pointing out that there is a reason why the unemployment stats are the most reported because they are the most meaningful.

[overthere]

Creating jobs digging holes and filling them in could be a short term fix for the systemic unemployment problem. There are lots of unemployed who would rather do that as opposed to social assistance or unemployment enjoyment dole. And there's little doubt that the political right would rather have them doing something instead of getting all that free money. Too bad there are only two choices in Canada so far.

In the U.S. they can go out and collect pop cans or visit the dumpsters behind the grocery stores.

There is a third choice, which is to move to a place in Canada where there are jobs. AB and SK come to mind.

Like so many things, unemployment is regional.

Note to potential economic refugees coming to the West: if you have no skills, you will get a job but it probably won';t pay well(though it is always possible you'll get an unskilled job for $25/hour working long hours with loadfs of overtime. It happens. These jobs are almost always dirty , uncomfortable, remote and involve living in a camp). The only difference between that and your situation at home is the first part, where you get a job.

[GostHacked]

Show me evidence that those people who have left the workforce are unemployed who have given up. There are many reasons to leave the workforce (early retirement, raising kids, schooling) so as far as I am concerned that statement is nothing but crap you made up to rationalize your predetermined position.

I've been unemployed since Sept 2013. I really have no desire to get back into the rat race. Looking at all the stressed out people, spending two hours a day in the car commuting with a bunch of other suckers doing the exact same thing, trying to get buy.

Going to attempt a few small start-ups for myself. I cannot really see myself working for anyone else anymore.

[Shady]

I've been unemployed since Sept 2013. I really have no desire to get back into the rat race. Looking at all the stressed out people, spending two hours a day in the car commuting with a bunch of other suckers doing the exact same thing, trying to get buy.

Going to attempt a few small start-ups for myself. I cannot really see myself working for anyone else anymore.

I think starting up a small business is a great idea, and more people should do it.

[bush_cheney2004]

Yep, Canadians love Mr. Obama and disliked Mr. Bush even though Bush was much better for Canadian economic policies. But unfortunately depending on a strong American economy isn't wishful thinking, it's a necessity for us and absolute reality.

But that reality is changing (desired or not) due to globalizaton, provincial policies, and shifts in U.S. consumption for housing and other sectors. Ontario will continue to lose ground in the automotive sector and other manufacturing as long as its energy and tax policies try to keep pace with growing debt. What foreign investment giveth can also taketh away.

U.S. baby boomers are now retiring at about 10,000 per day...300,000 per month....and this is causing fundamental changes to historic consumption patterns. Great for health care and adult diaper products....but bad for many other things.

[Shady]

But that reality is changing (desired or not) due to globalizaton, provincial policies, and shifts in U.S. consumption for housing and other sectors. Ontario will continue to lose ground in the automotive sector and other manufacturing as long as its energy and tax policies try to keep pace with growing debt. What foreign investment giveth can also taketh away.

U.S. baby boomers are now retiring at about 10,000 per day...300,000 per month....and this is causing fundamental changes to historic consumption patterns. Great for health care and adult diaper products....but bad for many other things.

Very true. Our own stupid energy policies especially have put Ontario at a big disadvantage. But America will remain our number one trading and economic partner for a long long time, due to it's proximity, ease of trade, population, and wealth relative to the rest of the world.

[monty16]

Small business? There's an idea! Show the big box stores that you can compete by undercutting them! I think it's entirely possible if you limit your greed to 2 or 3 bucks an hour. Cause Milty Friedman told us it was all about greed didn't he.

[WWWTT]

You have no data that says they need to be supported. The number includes early retirees, stay at home parents and students. The numbers mean nothing unless you understand why they have changed.

Your debate position is the numbers can only mean what you think they mean because it suits your political prejudices. All I am doing is pointing out that there is a reason why the unemployment stats are the most reported because they are the most meaningful.

You're suggesting that the working demographics have changed, I have not!

WWWTT

[TimG]

You're suggesting that the working demographics have changed, I have not!

All I am saying people can make choices not to work and that you cannot make assumptions about why people are not in the job market. OTOH, you are assuming that all people who are not working are discouraged job seekers. That is a huge assumption that is completely unjustified given the complete lack of data.