This week in Islam

[Guest]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

Free speech only refers to a person's ability to speak out against government without being censored or punished by that government.  There is no right to say whatever the heck you want wherever you want, without consequences.  

Yes, organizations can dictate, to an extent, how employees dress.  But there are limits to that, and in our country at least, it used to be that religious freedom trumped an organization's right to dictate dress.  And these laws, intended to put, at most, a few thousand Muslim women in their place, also affects Jews and Sikhs and probably others as well, assuming they are enforced equitably.

In France, it's not just government offices, it's in public.  In Holland, it's not just Government workers, but people going into government facilities - such as police stations, or wanting to ride public transit.  It's not like you and others here in Canada wouldn't like to see similar bans so that burkas were never seen in Canada.  You somehow think that's going to "help" these women, or "save" Canadian culture, which isn't even at risk from Burka wearing women, or even turbaned Sikhs. 

What is putting Canadian culture at risk is seeking to limit the freedoms of individuals practicing their faith in a way conservatives don't like.

Given Charle's admonition, I should add that I agree with you on burka bans.  People should have the right to dress how they like.  I disagree with you on religious accomodation trumping dress codes. If a Sikh wants to ride a bike, he should wear a helmet.

Edited August 3, 2019 by bcsapper

[Argus]

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

Free speech only refers to a person's ability to speak out against government without being censored or punished by that government.  There is no right to say whatever the heck you want wherever you want, without consequences.  

Free speech is a concept. No one ever said it should have no consequences. The problem is that more and more people on the Left feel free speech should be restricted to them and their views and beliefs, if not by goverment law then by regulation on things like internet media. And they don't care if that's a violation of a basic human right.

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

Yes, organizations can dictate, to an extent, how employees dress.  But there are limits to that, and in our country at least, it used to be that religious freedom trumped an organization's right to dictate dress.  And these laws, intended to put, at most, a few thousand Muslim women in their place, also affects Jews and Sikhs and probably others as well, assuming they are enforced equitably.

You're free to worship whatever or whomever you wish. It's the public displays of your religion which is irking people. If someone said it was their religion to walk around naked we'd tell them to do it at home or not at all. When you work for the goverment you're representing the goverment, and the government has no religion. It is secular.

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

In France, it's not just government offices, it's in public.  In Holland, it's not just Government workers, but people going into government facilities - such as police stations, or wanting to ride public transit.  It's not like you and others here in Canada wouldn't like to see similar bans so that burkas were never seen in Canada.  You somehow think that's going to "help" these women, or "save" Canadian culture, which isn't even at risk from Burka wearing women, or even turbaned Sikhs. 

If society doesn't do anything to discourage this kind of medieval thinking it will not change, but grow and spread. Rebellion against religious views is almost entirely absent within the Muslim world, so the pressure has to be external. I don't feel it's a major issue to be conveying our society's belief that this is not normal, and that the medieval thinking behind it is not respected in this country.

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

What is putting Canadian culture at risk is seeking to limit the freedoms of individuals practicing their faith in a way conservatives don't like.

Their belief and faith are foreign to this culture and hostile to it.

[scribblet]

Burkas should never be seen in Canada, they are a symbol of misogynist tyranny  and degradation of women. 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, scribblet said:

Burkas should never be seen in Canada, they are a symbol of misogynist tyranny  and degradation of women. 

One doesn't have to agree with the expression to support freedom of expression.  It's the same as freedom of speech.  You don't have to like it, you just have to allow it.

[scribblet]

1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

One doesn't have to agree with the expression to support freedom of expression.  It's the same as freedom of speech.  You don't have to like it, you just have to allow it.

Agree really except for covering your face and hiding your identity.  It is sad that even in reasonably free countries such as Canada that women are subjected to such tyranny. 

[dialamah]

Capitalism strikes again, as Western retailers begin selling hijabs and "modest" clothing.

And who could blame them?  Muslim consumers spent an estimated $264 billion on apparel in 2016.  

The article suggests these companies are also taking a political stand against Trump's rhetoric, but I disagree.  I think it's all about the money.

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Capitalism strikes again, as Western retailers begin selling hijabs and "modest" clothing.

And who could blame them?  Muslim consumers spent an estimated $264 billion on apparel in 2016.  

The article suggests these companies are also taking a political stand against Trump's rhetoric, but I disagree.  I think it's all about the money.

I have to agree.  It's funny how there's no pleasing some people, though.

“On the one hand, it does feel like they’re profiting off of us,”

A shop selling products for a profit?!?!  Whatever shall we do?

[scribblet]

Interesting piece here from 2016/17.  When asked if he thinks the wearing of the veil and the burka is increasing on the streets of Blackburn he says yes. Muhammad also agrees that there are more burkas and niqabs on Blackburn's streets than in previous years and adds that the current generation of Muslims is significantly more religious than their parents.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/673789/Blackburn-Islam-muslim-community-rise-of-the-burka-Koran-religion

Many locals feel that over a handful of decades Blackburn, and many nearby northern towns, has been sleepwalking to ghettoization, separation and nothing short of a neo-apartheid.

The ‘system’, social, political, religious and judicial has seemingly failed this town on every level.

Fear of offending the Muslim minority and political correctness, which values  multiculturalism over integration, is cited by many Blackburners as the twin poisons which created this ill-at-ease, two-tier town.

 

 

[Marocc]

6 minutes ago, scribblet said:

Interesting piece here from 2016/17.  When asked if he thinks the wearing of the veil and the burka is increasing on the streets of Blackburn he says yes. Muhammad also agrees that there are more burkas and niqabs on Blackburn's streets than in previous years and adds that the current generation of Muslims is significantly more religious than their parents.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/673789/Blackburn-Islam-muslim-community-rise-of-the-burka-Koran-religion

Many locals feel that over a handful of decades Blackburn, and many nearby northern towns, has been sleepwalking to ghettoization, separation and nothing short of a neo-apartheid.

The ‘system’, social, political, religious and judicial has seemingly failed this town on every level.

Fear of offending the Muslim minority and political correctness, which values  multiculturalism over integration, is cited by many Blackburners as the twin poisons which created this ill-at-ease, two-tier town.

 

 

More of them wearing veils doesn't have to be (and in fact I believe it isn't) related to them being more religious. The article sounds like DoP wrote it.

[Marocc]

On 8/4/2019 at 6:21 AM, bcsapper said:

I have to agree.  It's funny how there's no pleasing some people, though.

“On the one hand, it does feel like they’re profiting off of us,”

A shop selling products for a profit?!?!  Whatever shall we do?

It's better to buy from Muslims.

[Marocc]

On 8/4/2019 at 3:48 AM, scribblet said:

Agree really except for covering your face and hiding your identity.  It is sad that even in reasonably free countries such as Canada that women are subjected to such tyranny. 

There are plenty of women who like wearing it.

[scribblet]

The Rotherham Council needs to be booted out..imagine giving a rapist parental rights...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/rotherham-grooming-gang-case-sammy-woodhouse-victim-son-sexual-abuse-a8656116.html

“Rotherham council invited him to apply for parental rights over my child, even though it was proven in court that he was a danger to myself and another children,” she said. 

[Guest]

On 8/3/2019 at 6:48 PM, scribblet said:

Agree really except for covering your face and hiding your identity.  It is sad that even in reasonably free countries such as Canada that women are subjected to such tyranny. 

If a woman is wearing a burka due to male oppression, banning it won't help her.  She just won't get out much.  It would be better if the authorities did more to let women know they can appeal to them for help.

But then they would actually have to help, and I don't know that there's the will.

 

[dialamah]

36 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

If a woman is wearing a burka due to male oppression, banning it won't help her.  She just won't get out much.  It would be better if the authorities did more to let women know they can appeal to them for help.

But then they would actually have to help, and I don't know that there's the will.

In France, the person doing the forcing of the Burka wearing would be fined a considerable amount, which I prefer over fining the woman herself. 

But in either case, if a woman can't go in public either with or without a burka, how would authorities ever know?

Edited August 5, 2019 by dialamah

[Guest]

1 minute ago, dialamah said:

In France, the person doing the forcing of the Burka wearing would be fined a considerable amount, which I prefer over fining the woman herself. 

But in either case, if a woman can't go in public either with or without a burka, how would authorities ever know?

The French do seem to be leading the way at the moment.  Bless 'em. (Never thought I'd be saying that about the French)

Back in my old country, she would probably be banged up for a hate crime.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

If a woman is wearing a burka due to male oppression, banning it won't help her.  She just won't get out much. 

I wonder how many of these men are really that devoted to Islam that they'll take over all the tasks the wife would normally be responsible for, like going and getting the groceries.

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, Argus said:

I wonder how many of these men are really that devoted to Islam that they'll take over all the tasks the wife would normally be responsible for, like going and getting the groceries.

It's a fair point.  But if I'm willing to make my wife cover her entire body in 35 degree heat, who knows what I'm capable of?

[dialamah]

42 minutes ago, Argus said:

I wonder how many of these men are really that devoted to Islam that they'll take over all the tasks the wife would normally be responsible for, like going and getting the groceries.

That's an interesting question.   The Muslim husbands I've seen wouldn't have a problem with it.   But I've only seen about half-a-dozen in action, so it's way too anecdotal to be of any use. 

[Marocc]

On 8/3/2019 at 9:38 PM, Argus said:

When you work for the goverment you're representing the goverment, and the government has no religion. It is secular.

It is the presidents job first and foremost to represent the goverment. After that come the ministers. The other little people just do a regular job. And yes, a goverment employee can be Religious and dress so. It takes nothing away from the goverment.

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

In France, the person doing the forcing of the Burka wearing would be fined a considerable amount, which I prefer over fining the woman herself. 

But in either case, if a woman can't go in public either with or without a burka, how would authorities ever know?

I'm sure the woman would very glad for that. Especially since the husband is paying for their living anyway..

52 minutes ago, Argus said:

I wonder how many of these men are really that devoted to Islam that they'll take over all the tasks the wife would normally be responsible for, like going and getting the groceries.

Devoted? Most Muslim house wives go to the grocery themselves if they feel like it or if it fits their schedule. Muslims women who never leave their house are extremely rare. And no, you can't recognize them from the terrifying niqab.

16 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

It's a fair point.  But if I'm willing to make my wife cover her entire body in 35 degree heat, who knows what I'm capable of?

A Muslim woman's dress is actually very comfortable and not very hot. It is so wide it only is against the body around the shoulders and somewhat the arms. And they know how to dress underneath and what materials to use.

 

Sometimes I'm embarrassed to read all your comments.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Marocc said:

Sometimes I'm embarrassed to read all your comments.

Don't worry about being embarrassed.  It's not unusual to be embarrassed by the comments of others on here.  Especially where religion is concerned.

[dialamah]

13 minutes ago, Marocc said:

A Muslim woman's dress is actually very comfortable and not very hot. It is so wide it only is against the body around the shoulders and somewhat the arms. And they know how to dress underneath and what materials to use.

I've worn Muslim dress in hot weather and found it significantly warmer than what I normally wear.  I can't imagine how much warmer adding a niqab would have been.  Consider also that many of these outfits are black, a color that attracts heat. If a Muslim woman were dressing to increase comfort, than light colored apparel would be chosen over dark colored clothing when it's hot.

I agree that a certain amount of acclimation occurs and that fabrics and style makes a difference in terms of comfort,  but honestly your explanation sounds like it's coming from someone who has never worn shorts and light shirt, and/or never worn a burka.  

Edited August 5, 2019 by dialamah
Correcting autocorrect

[Marocc]

24 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I've worn Muslim dress in hot weather and found it significantly warmer than what I normally wear.  I can't imagine how much warmer adding a niqab would have been.  Consider also that many of these outfits are black, a color that attracts heat. If a Muslim woman were dressing to increase comfort, than light colored apparel would be chosen over dark colored clothing when it's hot.

I agree that a certain amount of acclimation occurs and that fabrics and style makes a difference in terms of comfort,  but honestly your explanation sounds like it's coming from someone who has never worn shorts and light shirt, and/or never worn a burka.  

It doesn't have to be black. Many do wear lighter colours, but it doesn't matter gthey probably won't be sitting in the sun. It protects from the sun as well though.

Yes, it hotter than shorts and a light shirt. Yes, I've worn both.... Just saying if you choose all garments right it is much better than what people expect. But then you have to be able to endure occasional discomfort - like all people do when it's really hot.

 

[dialamah]

Hijab-wearing woman with PhD also an Olympic weightlifter.

[J4L]

Muslims as individuals are ok.  Never had a problem with them.  However, Muslims in groups can be dangerous to their respective host.  Is there any Western Nation that has not been attacked, or been victims of a planned attack by it's Islamic population.  In 2006, Muslims from Toronto had a elaborate plan to blow up the CN Tower, and storm Parliament Hill, and destroy War Monuments. Luckily, the group of 18 was infiltrated before their plan was carried out. 

What is wrong with these people anyway?  Every single ethnic group or religious group that have made Canada their home, has tried to make this country better. So have many Muslims.  However, you cannot deny that a small but radical group of Muslims are at any given time, plotting to impose Sharia Law over Canada, or looking at which synagogue to bomb.

 

A good way to really find out how Muslims feel about us, is tp view how they treat the Jews.  In nearly every country in Europe, Jews cannot wear the Kippah or any other religious symbols, in fear of being beaten in the streets. In France, Jews are leaving the country in droves, out of fear, since the Muslim population is 10 times greater than the Jewish population, an has been terrorizing Jews for nearly 20 years.  The French look the other way, just like they did in World War 2.  The truth is the Muslims who attack Jews efiniately want to attack Christians and other "Infidels" but are prevented from doing so because they are cowards.  After all, it's easier to beat down a man, when you outnumber him 10 to 1, then it is to take on a man one on one.  

I'm no fan of Trump, but if it were up to me, I would cap the Islamic population at 5%, then ban them from immigrating.  We need to protect ourselves.  To be honest, I would have said 3.3% but that is the current percentage of Canadians that follow Islam.  I truly believe Islam is incompatible with Western Democracy. 

[scribblet]

10 hours ago, J4L said:

Muslims as individuals are ok.  Never had a problem with them.  However, Muslims in groups can be dangerous to their respective host.  Is there any Western Nation that has not been attacked, or been victims of a planned attack by it's Islamic population.  In 2006, Muslims from Toronto had a elaborate plan to blow up the CN Tower, and storm Parliament Hill, and destroy War Monuments. Luckily, the group of 18 was infiltrated before their plan was carried out. 

What is wrong with these people anyway?  Every single ethnic group or religious group that have made Canada their home, has tried to make this country better. So have many Muslims.  However, you cannot deny that a small but radical group of Muslims are at any given time, plotting to impose Sharia Law over Canada, or looking at which synagogue to bob.

.....

This is true, as in any group.  I paint with a Muslim gal and have gone to her home, she's great but her husband isn't all that friendly.   Although not a church member I belong to an art group which uses a room in one, so got involved with helping a sponsored refugee group (teaching English); it's the too large percentage who are radical.