TimG Posted April 18, 2014 Report Share Posted April 18, 2014 (edited) No your statement is ridiculous. The most depraved narratives are those which equate accidental death with deliberate murder - it's no exaggeration to say this is a perspective that is really grotesque no matter what point you're trying to convey.I don't doubt that is what you want to believe because you some how get validation from it. But the issue in this thread is not about whether BH's narrative is more compelling to you than mine. The issue is both BH and I are constructing narratives to support a POV. Narratives that seem to agree on the known facts and only differ in how the material is presented (spun if you prefer). Bottom line: we are all "propagandists". You may be more inclined to believe "propagandists" that tell you want you want to hear but that does not mean they represent the truth more honestly than people that tell you what you do not want to hear. Edited April 18, 2014 by TimG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 I don't understand this. You're either with us or against us. Pick a side, buddy. Who is "us"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 (edited) I don't doubt that is what you want to believe because you some how get validation from it. But the issue in this thread is not about whether BH's narrative is more compelling to you than mine. The issue is both BH and I are constructing narratives to support a POV. No, you're just spewing a bunch of crap. Edited April 19, 2014 by eyeball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASIP Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 For example, when City Hall was seized by Euromaidan street fighters, one of their first acts was to unfurl several flags...prominent among them" Nazi flags, SS lightning bolts, Iron crosses, the Ku Klux Klan's "Celtic Cross," and the Confederate flag. Do you have a confirmation of this BS? Or, I see, you are volunteering for Putin's propaganda machine... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWWTT Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 Ok I think it's time I contribute to this thread with some heavy material!!! *****WARNING****** Some of the images are graphic! http://scgnews.com/videos-from-ukraine-that-the-us-media-will-never-show-you Looks like the US is losing the "Media" war on this one so I expect them to start backing down real fast! Don't expect NATO to come running to hold the US's hand and coddle them, well maybe Steve "W.P." Harper? WWWTT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 (edited) I find it amazing that you can engage in the exact same propaganda tactics that you accuse others of yet be completely blind to it. I equate it all to the left-right mentality of any government. Both sides of any government play off each other in propaganda campaigns to convince you that they are right. And if what they say matches your worldview, then you will go with them, while looking at the other side as being the wrong ones. So ramp this up to a global perspective and you get much of the same. An 'us or them' mentality. BH is pointing out that it's pure propaganda on all angles. Russia is putting up their 'public relations' as much as the west is. Talking points repeated to the point that anyone else can recite them without any real understanding what they mean. I do not believe BH is blind to this. I think his optics ring quite true. So Russia did not make much of a stink about Afghanistan or Iraq. The US and NATO are not making much of a stink regarding Ukraine. When Iraq invaded Kuwait, you had a very immediate response by the west. I'll say because these forces simply could not compare to the more advanced tech and large numbers of kit/personnel the US and allies had thrown into the mix. Very asymmetrical warfare. Full spectrum dominance. And not much international blowback because of it. Yet the propaganda at that time was starting to focus on Hussein more and more, regardless of the US's view of 'well as long as he is our bastard'. Used and then turned on by the same people that helped Hussein and Iraq with their war with Iran. Iran does have some Russian support, so another proxy war. So back to this propaganda thing. Since 9/11 the propaganda from the west (US, UK, EU ect.) has been about terrorism, more specifically Muslim terrorism. Check back to some of those threads we have here and see for yourself some of the posts and mentalities some of us were in then. What kind of views do you hold now that years have gone on? I know mine sure have changed. And I guess this is where BH is at now. It's pretty tiring to see A vrs B , while each claiming to be right. And there is a crap load of stuff coming at you from both sides regarding Ukraine. If you lived in Russia, your views might be slightly different. So these options remain. 1 - Both sides are right. 2 - Both sides are wrong. 3 - Only one side is correct. Yes this is very simplified. But we do not need to venture in the grey areas in order to start seeing through the crap and understanding that both sides are playing you for a fool. While laughing at you every step of the way. Edited April 19, 2014 by GostHacked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 It's no wonder that Putin feels like he can act without impunity when he has useful idiots in the west, such as some of the people in this forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 I equate it all to the left-right mentality of any government. Both sides of any government play off each other in propaganda campaigns to convince you that they are right. And if what they say matches your worldview, then you will go with them, while looking at the other side as being the wrong ones. So ramp this up to a global perspective and you get much of the same. An 'us or them' mentality.BH is pointing out that it's pure propaganda on all angles. Russia is putting up their 'public relations' as much as the west is. Talking points repeated to the point that anyone else can recite them without any real understanding what they mean. I do not believe BH is blind to this. I think his optics ring quite true.So Russia did not make much of a stink about Afghanistan or Iraq. The US and NATO are not making much of a stink regarding Ukraine.When Iraq invaded Kuwait, you had a very immediate response by the west. I'll say because these forces simply could not compare to the more advanced tech and large numbers of kit/personnel the US and allies had thrown into the mix. Very asymmetrical warfare. Full spectrum dominance. And not much international blowback because of it. Yet the propaganda at that time was starting to focus on Hussein more and more, regardless of the US's view of 'well as long as he is our bastard'. Used and then turned on by the same people that helped Hussein and Iraq with their war with Iran. Iran does have some Russian support, so another proxy war.So back to this propaganda thing. Since 9/11 the propaganda from the west (US, UK, EU ect.) has been about terrorism, more specifically Muslim terrorism. Check back to some of those threads we have here and see for yourself some of the posts and mentalities some of us were in then. What kind of views do you hold now that years have gone on? I know mine sure have changed.And I guess this is where BH is at now. It's pretty tiring to see A vrs B , while each claiming to be right.And there is a crap load of stuff coming at you from both sides regarding Ukraine. If you lived in Russia, your views might be slightly different.So these options remain.1 - Both sides are right.2 - Both sides are wrong.3 - Only one side is correct.Yes this is very simplified. But we do not need to venture in the grey areas in order to start seeing through the crap and understanding that both sides are playing you for a fool. While laughing at you every step of the way. Putin annexed Crimea and now he's working to do the same to eastern Ukraine. Nothing else matters, it's all white noise. Wake up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWWTT Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 It's no wonder that Putin feels like he can act without impunity when he has useful idiots in the west, such as some of the people in this forum. That's not the way I see it! I have provided adequate links that more than clearly show that the US's only interest is that the US currency is the only one used in foreign energy transactions. Russia, China and several other players are saying, hey wait, why should we help prop up you guys with our natural resources, we're using our own currency! The US gets all three stooges like pissed off and starts throwing hissy fits by trying to destabilize the country where a big chunk of energy transports route through. Did you really believe the US would be able to use the CIA to out espionage Putin in the Ukraine???? Russia's freekin back yard??? Putin was a member of the KGB for crying out load! And if you think Romney would have done a better job, you got to be freekin joking! The only thing Romney may have done better, was realize from the word go that the US had no bloody freekin chance from the word go! And just left it at that and walked, just calling the Russian's the bad guys without the embarrassing loss. WWWTT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 Putin annexed Crimea and now he's working to do the same to eastern Ukraine. Nothing else matters, it's all white noise. Wake up. Another super-power pushing it's weight around, so what? Since when did that matter? Go back to sleep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 That's not the way I see it! I have provided adequate links that more than clearly show that the US's only interest is that the US currency is the only one used in foreign energy transactions. Russia, China and several other players are saying, hey wait, why should we help prop up you guys with our natural resources, we're using our own currency! The US gets all three stooges like pissed off and starts throwing hissy fits by trying to destabilize the country where a big chunk of energy transports route through. Did you really believe the US would be able to use the CIA to out espionage Putin in the Ukraine???? Russia's freekin back yard??? Putin was a member of the KGB for crying out load! And if you think Romney would have done a better job, you got to be freekin joking! The only thing Romney may have done better, was realize from the word go that the US had no bloody freekin chance from the word go! And just left it at that and walked, just calling the Russian's the bad guys without the embarrassing loss. WWWTT I honestly don't know what any of this has to do with being concerned over Putin's annexation of Crimea and now his new attempt to do the same with Ukraine. Do you people have A.D.D or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWWTT Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 I honestly don't know what any of this has to do with being concerned over Putin's annexation of Crimea and now his new attempt to do the same with Ukraine. Do you people have A.D.D or something? Wake up and smell the new Eurasian Altyn currency Shady! That's what this is all about! And the US is actually bowing to them by helping Putin annex Ukraine to lubricate the transition. Don't expect any white knights on silver horses from the GOP to come running in any time soon either! From poll results so far, this is going to be a bad year for the GOP! Oh and by the way, try to stay on topic and don't insult the intelligence of other posters here! WWWTT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 Wake up and smell the new Eurasian Altyn currency Shady! That's what this is all about! And the US is actually bowing to them by helping Putin annex Ukraine to lubricate the transition. Don't expect any white knights on silver horses from the GOP to come running in any time soon either! From poll results so far, this is going to be a bad year for the GOP! Oh and by the way, try to stay on topic and don't insult the intelligence of other posters here! WWWTT So Putin annexed Crimea because of currency? He's attempting to do the same thing with eastern Ukraine over currency? And you feel this is justified because? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 I believe that to understand what has happened recently in Ukraine and why it happened takes a lot of effort. To find a solution you have to find the cause. The major cause of all the problems is the separation and distrust between the Ukrainian speaking North and West and the Russian speaking East and South. If you study the history of that region you will find out why those groups exist. If you study the Ukrainian elections of 2010 you will understand the issues of the disagreements between both sides and just how bitterly divided they are. The results of the vote give a pretty valid representation of the split. If you study the how the current government came into place then you can understand why people in the Russian speaking areas do not feel that it is a legitimate government. If you listen to media that tells you that “Putin is doing this because ...” or “Obama is doing this because ...” or “what the Russians are thinking is ...” or “what the Ukrainians are thinking ...” you make the mistake of allowing someone who has as much access to information as you do, do your research for you and tell you what to think. Research on your own, make your own decision based on what impartial factual data you can find. We all know the leanings of the different media - far left and far right, nationalistic and international, gather and compare their reporting of the same event and make your own decision. Ignore posters who try to intimidate, demean, obfuscate or ridicule other posters or their opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 Lot of truther, birther and conspiracy buffs on this topic, it seems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 I believe that to understand what has happened recently in Ukraine and why it happened takes a lot of effort. To find a solution you have to find the cause. The major cause of all the problems is the separation and distrust between the Ukrainian speaking North and West and the Russian speaking East and South. Really? No mention of Putin subvertion? How convenient for him. Who knew that this crisis is all the fault of Ukraine and Crimea. It's almost as though Vladimir never existed! Lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 Lot of truther, birther and conspiracy buffs on this topic, it seems. Yep. I honestly don't understand the level of obfuscation and justification of Putin's actions by members of this forum. They're practically bending over backwards in order to blame everyone but the primary perpetrator. It's completely absurd. I've never encountered this level of denialism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWWTT Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 So Putin annexed Crimea because of currency? He's attempting to do the same thing with eastern Ukraine over currency? And you feel this is justified because? Yes and no, no and yes. Ukraine is a vital link in the Eurasian trade routes for obvious geographical regions. China and Russia want the assurance that Ukraine is stable politically to ensure this process is achieved. US sees opportunity to cut corporate puppeteer strings! US can't make any promises, can only suggest that vital parts in Ukraine fall under Russian jurisdiction to insure the process. And helps them out by being the bad guy here. Russia walks in securing the flow. US is happy that the corporate puppet masters back home in the good old US of A have many of their puppet strings permanently cut! USA throws its arms up in the air and says to their corporate puppeteers " hey what do want us to do, go to nuclear war over your stupid freekin petro dollar" The end! WWWTT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWWTT Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 (edited) Yep. I honestly don't understand the level of obfuscation and justification of Putin's actions by members of this forum. They're practically bending over backwards in order to blame everyone but the primary perpetrator. It's completely absurd. I've never encountered this level of denialism. I'm not denying anything Shady! All I'm saying is that this is happening way to fast and way to easy! The US is helping Russia, it's the only logical reason. I'll admit my position here has bounced around a little, But I don't think that the US government is Crimea(ing) a river over this one WWWTT Edited April 19, 2014 by WWWTT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 Putin annexed Crimea and now he's working to do the same to eastern Ukraine. Nothing else matters, it's all white noise. Wake up. You are missing the point of this thread. Yep. I honestly don't understand the level of obfuscation and justification of Putin's actions by members of this forum. They're practically bending over backwards in order to blame everyone but the primary perpetrator. It's completely absurd. I've never encountered this level of denialism. No one is making excuses for Putin. IN every thread so far, no one is supporting Putin's actions within Crimea. However many are trying to put it into context to at least try to understand it. But this is the mindset that people are stuck in when they are made to believe that only one side (The west) is correct in their actions, but Russia is not correct. Both sides have done things that are wrong. The public relations aka propaganda works on you quite well, because of your partisan position. It's how you are a Rep and not a Dem. But no matter you are getting screwed by both, but yet blinded by the propaganda to only support one side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-TSS- Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 According to Russian propaganda western powers made a promise to the Soviet Union that NATO won't expand eastwards if the SU accepts German reunification. Now the Russians feel betrayed. Even if this is true no such promise is binding as countries such as Poland, Hungary etc are sovereign countries and can apply for membership of international organisations if they wish so. Should they have been told: sorry, we can't take you aboard because we promised that to the Russians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWWTT Posted April 20, 2014 Report Share Posted April 20, 2014 This link qualifies to be in this thread! http://thelapine.ca/canadian-jets-terrify-putin/ More updates coming soon! WWWTT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASIP Posted April 20, 2014 Report Share Posted April 20, 2014 According to Russian propaganda western powers made a promise to the Soviet Union that NATO won't expand eastwards if the SU accepts German reunification. Now the Russians feel betrayed. Even if this is true no such promise is binding as countries such as Poland, Hungary etc are sovereign countries and can apply for membership of international organisations if they wish so. Should they have been told: sorry, we can't take you aboard because we promised that to the Russians. Exactly. As it was recently stated by NATO, no such a promise was made. This is pure Putin's propaganda to justify Russian aggression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted April 22, 2014 Report Share Posted April 22, 2014 Exactly. As it was recently stated by NATO, no such a promise was made. This is pure Putin's propaganda to justify Russian aggression. More on Russian propoganda. Russian TV channel LifeNews's sensational and emotive reports about the shooting outside the east Ukrainian town of Sloviansk have caused controversy and accusations of fakery, with their shots of crisp dollar bills and a business card said to belong to ultranationalist Right Sector leader Dmytro Yarosh. But they also provide a classic case study in the methods used by pro-Kremlin media to shape public opinion about the conflict in Ukraine. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27104185 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iolo Posted April 22, 2014 Report Share Posted April 22, 2014 The Russian 'sphere of influence' was violated by political clowns, anxious to take over the world. Won't happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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