Is Gender Irrelevant?

[Boges]

And that reason is?

Things that are very difficult, if not impossible, to permanently change.

[Black Dog]

Things that are very difficult, if not impossible, to permanently change.

Still not answering the question.

[Bonam]

And that reason is?

Because being happy with your own body is a basic part of a healthy self-esteem, happiness, and mental health in general. Being happy with what you have is a lot easier and safer than changing it, because procedures to change these basic biological traits are invasive, have risks and side-effects, and may be difficult to reverse. Children that aren't even allowed to sign contracts, vote, drink alcohol, or drive because we do not consider them to be responsible enough should most certainly not be given the responsibility of making such major decisions that will affect them substantially for the rest of their lives. School children may be confused by the actions of their siblings, friends, parents, teachers, media, or other influences and not really comprehend the nature or magnitude of the decisions they are making when it comes to modifying their basic biological traits. Far better to be happy with what you have, at least until an age when you can make informed responsible adult decisions.

[jacee]

The discussion is not about surgery.

That's a red herring to avoid the real issue, respect for gender identity.

[Black Dog]

Because being happy with your own body is a basic part of a healthy self-esteem, happiness, and mental health in general. Being happy with what you have is a lot easier and safer than changing it, because procedures to change these basic biological traits are invasive, have risks and side-effects, and may be difficult to reverse.

This assumes that ability to be happy in the body you have is a luxury everyone enjoys. It is not.

Children that aren't even allowed to sign contracts, vote, drink alcohol, or drive because we do not consider them to be responsible enough should most certainly not be given the responsibility of making such major decisions that will affect them substantially for the rest of their lives. School children may be confused by the actions of their siblings, friends, parents, teachers, media, or other influences and not really comprehend the nature or magnitude of the decisions they are making when it comes to modifying their basic biological traits.

There are children getting gender reassignment surgery? Cite?

Far better to be happy with what you have, at least until an age when you can make informed responsible adult decisions.

Never mind the children. If an adult decides that the only way they can be happy with their body and themselves is through gender reassignment surgery, why is that an issue?

[Bonam]

That's a red herring to avoid the real issue, respect for gender identity.

Should I respect someone's "height identity" if they identify with being 6'4" when they are really 5'2"? Should they be placed on the basketball team because they identify as being tall?

Should I respect someone's "racial identity" if they identify with being black when they are really white? Should they be able to qualify for scholarships that are designated for black people? Should a Chinese immigrant be able to qualify for native Indian status because he identifies with being a member of the First Nations? Why can't someone identify with a race other than the one they were born with and have that decision respected? After all, we keep being told that race is a "social construct", just like we keep being told about gender.

To demand that someone treats another person that is obviously visually male as a female, or vice versa, is asking that person to deny reality. It is no less a fantastical denial of reality than recognizing a white person as black or a short person as tall.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Bonam

[Boges]

Never mind the children. If an adult decides that the only way they can be happy with their body and themselves is through gender reassignment surgery, why is that an issue?

I don't think anyone is arguing if it is or not. I bumped this thread because of the policy from the Vancouver school board. The thread was created because of a mother not wanting to identify her child with any gender. An adult can do what they want and other adults can respond to them the way they want.

We're talking about the controlling environment of a school.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Boges

[Bonam]

Never mind the children. If an adult decides that the only way they can be happy with their body and themselves is through gender reassignment surgery, why is that an issue?

It's not. Like TimG said, adults are free to do whatever they want to themselves. A significant part of this thread was about schools/children and so I was referring to that.

[Black Dog]

Should I respect someone's "height identity" if they identify with being 6'4" when they are really 5'2"? Should they be placed on the basketball team because they identify as being tall?

Should I respect someone's "racial identity" if they identify with being black when they are really white? Should they be able to qualify for scholarships that are designated for black people? Should a Chinese immigrant be able to qualify for native Indian status because he identifies with being a member of the First Nations? Why can't someone identify with a race other than the one they were born with and have that decision respected? After all, we keep being told that race is a "social construct", just like we keep being told about gender.

It would help your argument immensely if you were able to use examples that were actually real.

To demand that someone treats another person that is obviously visually male as a female, or vice versa, is asking that person to deny reality. It is no less a fantastical denial of reality than recognizing a white person as black or a short person as tall.

How do you treat black people differently from white people? Men from women?

I'm very sorry people who fall outside the standard gender binary cause you some much confusion, but I'd posit that the issue there lies with you, not them.

It's not. Like TimG said, adults are free to do whatever they want to themselves. A significant part of this thread was about schools/children and so I was referring to that.

But you were just complaining about how awfully confusing that makes things for grownups. Treating men like women? What next, dogs and cats intermarrying?

[Boges]

Men from women?

I don't know about you but I treat men and women differently. Not in a discriminatory fashion but I wouldn't say the things to a woman that I would to my male friends.

As I said to cyber earlier in this thread, not better or worse, different.

[Bonam]

It would help your argument immensely if you were able to use examples that were actually real.

What do you fail to understand about the presented hypothetical examples and their direct applicability to the issue at hand? In what relevant way is racial identity not analogous to gender identity for the purposes of this discussion?

How do you treat black people differently from white people? Men from women?

There are a number of opportunities presented only for members of visible minorities and not white people... scholarships, affirmative action job incentives, etc. There are similarly opportunities that are reserved just for women that men do not qualify for.

I'm very sorry people who fall outside the standard gender binary cause you some much confusion, but I'd posit that the issue there lies with you, not them.

They cause me no confusion at all.

But you were just complaining about how awfully confusing that makes things for grownups.

Oh? And where was I doing that?

Treating men like women? What next, dogs and cats intermarrying?

And you complain about me not using "real examples"? Seriously? This is your reply? It would help your argument immensely if you at least pretended to hold an iota of respect for the people you are debating with, rather than writing off their positions as ignorant simply because you disagree with them.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Bonam

[cybercoma]

And why would who you screw have any bearing on where you shit?

Oh man. Haha.

[cybercoma]

where they are asked in good faith.

And where was that?

[cybercoma]

Things that are very difficult, if not impossible, to permanently change.

Why do people need to change anything? You know there are trans people who don't undergo surgery, right?

[Boges]

Why do people need to change anything? You know there are trans people who don't undergo surgery, right?

If you feel you are a woman, and want to be treated like a woman, wouldn't it stand to reason you'd want to look like a woman? Without hormonal therapy and surgery, it's very difficult for someone to be a convincing woman. Jared Leto did a decent job in Dallas Buyers Club, but still.

Are you really expecting the public, as a whole, to treat an adult male that look like an adult male like a woman because they want to be treated as such?

I fully understand there are cross-dressers but they can be identified as such, not a as an actual woman.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Boges

[cybercoma]

Because being happy with your own body is a basic part of a healthy self-esteem, happiness, and mental health in general. Being happy with what you have is a lot easier and safer than changing it, because procedures to change these basic biological traits are invasive, have risks and side-effects, and may be difficult to reverse. Children that aren't even allowed to sign contracts, vote, drink alcohol, or drive because we do not consider them to be responsible enough should most certainly not be given the responsibility of making such major decisions that will affect them substantially for the rest of their lives. School children may be confused by the actions of their siblings, friends, parents, teachers, media, or other influences and not really comprehend the nature or magnitude of the decisions they are making when it comes to modifying their basic biological traits. Far better to be happy with what you have, at least until an age when you can make informed responsible adult decisions.

You're missing the point. There are trans people that are fine with what they have, but identify as one gender or the other despite their sex. There is a difference between biological sex and gender identity (and gender performance and sexual orientation as well). Why does a person's gender identity have to match their biological sex? Gender is a social construct that's based entirely on social relationships. If a person identifies as a gender that's different from their biological sex that doesn't mean they don't accept their body. Their body is something separate from their gender. As I already mentioned, many trans people don't have surgery, while some others do. If you want an example of a trans person who accepts her body just look at the Austrian singer Conchita Wurst. She has a full beard and is quite obviously living as a female. What you think of her body is irrelevant and the fact that she has male genitals and a beard is entirely irrelevant to her gender identity. She identifies as a woman, so that's what her gender is.

In fact, it's quite funny how Tim says they have a problem accepting their body for what it is. It's people like Tim who have a problem accepting their body. Those who can't get beyond transgendered people's genitals and accept that a woman can have either male or female genitals or be intersex are the ones who refuse to accept their bodies.

[cybercoma]

Are you really expecting the public, as a whole, to treat an adult male that look like an adult male like a woman because they want to be treated as such?

Do I expect people to treat others as they want to be treated? Yes, I do.

[Boges]

Do I expect people to treat others as they want to be treated? Yes, I do.

So you expect a male, who looks pretty much like a male, to expect to be able to be romantically involved with hetrosexual males? see a gynaecologist? Or work in female-only environments?

[jacee]

If you feel you are a woman, and want to be treated like a woman, wouldn't it stand to reason you'd want to look like a woman? Without hormonal therapy and surgery, it's very difficult for someone to be a convincing woman. Jared Leto did a decent job in Dallas Buyers Club, but still.

Are you really expecting the public, as a whole, to treat an adult male that look like an adult male like a woman because they want to be treated as such?

I fully understand there are cross-dressers but they can be identified as such, not a as an actual woman.

How can you tell?

Do you frisk them for a penis before determining whether to address them as male or female?

Or ... do you just respect them according to their apparent gender identity?

.

[Boges]

How can you tell?

Do you frisk them for a penis before determining whether to address them as male or female?

Or ... do you just respect them according to their apparent gender identity?

.

A penis isn't the only thing that makes a male identifiable.

It's actually a lot easier for a woman to live as a man. There was an Amanda Bynes movie about it.

[cybercoma]

So you expect a male, who looks pretty much like a male, to expect to be able to be romantically involved with hetrosexual males? see a gynaecologist? Or work in female-only environments?

I mean no disrespect, but your questions are very silly.

[Bonam]

How can you tell?

Do you frisk them for a penis before determining whether to address them as male or female?

Or ... do you just respect them according to their apparent gender identity?

.

In the overwhelming majority of cases, one can tell the difference between someone who is biologically male or female without any "genital inspection". One can look at their face, their proportions, their voice, etc. Yes there is the very rare ambiguous case, but that doesn't invalidate the reality that one can easily tell a male from a female the vast vast majority of the time.

[Bonam]

You're missing the point. There are trans people that are fine with what they have, but identify as one gender or the other despite their sex. There is a difference between biological sex and gender identity (and gender performance and sexual orientation as well). Why does a person's gender identity have to match their biological sex? Gender is a social construct that's based entirely on social relationships. If a person identifies as a gender that's different from their biological sex that doesn't mean they don't accept their body. Their body is something separate from their gender. As I already mentioned, many trans people don't have surgery, while some others do. If you want an example of a trans person who accepts her body just look at the Austrian singer Conchita Wurst. She has a full beard and is quite obviously living as a female. What you think of her body is irrelevant and the fact that she has male genitals and a beard is entirely irrelevant to her gender identity. She identifies as a woman, so that's what her gender is.

What is "living as a female" and how is that different than "living as a male"? Individuals of either gender can live however they want, barring restrictions on specific locations they can enter that are designated for one gender only.

[Boges]

I mean no disrespect, but your questions are very silly.

We've establish that more or less, gender is a socially created construct. Sex is not, I'm highlighting things are unique to people with the sex of a woman.

[Black Dog]

What do you fail to understand about the presented hypothetical examples and their direct applicability to the issue at hand?

Gender dysphoria is a real thing. Racial dysphoria is, AFAIK, not. So why would I concern myself with something that doesn't actually exist?

In what relevant way is racial identity not analogous to gender identity for the purposes of this discussion?

Let's revisit these:

Should I respect someone's "racial identity" if they identify with being black when they are really white? Should they be able to qualify for scholarships that are designated for black people?

Pretty sure most scholarships and AA initiatives are awarded based on more than simple skin colour.

Should a Chinese immigrant be able to qualify for native Indian status because he identifies with being a member of the First Nations?

Well no, because "being a member of a First Nation" is a quasi legal construct.

Why can't someone identify with a race other than the one they were born with and have that decision respected?

You're not actually talking about respect here. You're talking about accommodation.

There are a number of opportunities presented only for members of visible minorities and not white people... scholarships, affirmative action job incentives, etc.

Pretty sure most of those go beyond basic skin colour.

They cause me no confusion at all.

Then why the bleating about the demands placed on someone confronted with a person who identifies as a gender other than their biological sex?

Oh? And where was I doing that?

Short memory?

To demand that someone treats another person that is obviously visually male as a female, or vice versa, is asking that person to deny reality. It is no less a fantastical denial of reality than recognizing a white person as black or a short person as tall.

Seems clear you thinking asking someone to "deny reality" is a problem in some way.

And you complain about me not using "real examples"? Seriously? This is your reply? It would help your argument immensely if you at least pretended to hold an iota of respect for the people you are debating with, rather than writing off their positions as ignorant simply because you disagree with them.

I don't think your position is ignorant because I disagree with it. I disagree with it because I think it's ignorant.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Black Dog