BC Teachers Getting Screwed...Again

[The_Squid]

Which is why it is a good way to pressure the union to settle sooner than later. Are you opposed to a negotiated settlement?

No it isn't. This actually takes the pressure off and puts it squarely on the gov't.

Yes, I am opposed to a settlement. stupid questions deserve stupid answers...

Why should the teachers even get that money when they've placed a new financial burden on parents.

They will get whatever money they settle for. Better that it includes the $12 million per day in savings than the gov't needing to come up with new money from BC taxpayers without the offset of the savings.

[TimG]

No it isn't. This actually takes the pressure off and puts it squarely on the gov't.

The why is the BCTF so upset about the move? (hint: they don't like it because they know it hurts them)

[The_Squid]

The why is the BCTF so upset about the move? (hint: they don't like it because they know it hurts them)

ok... even if it does, it's still a waste of taxpayer dollars.

[Bonam]

ok... even if it does, it's still a waste of taxpayer dollars.

Perhaps not. If the added pressure results in the BCTF accepting a more reasonable deal, perhaps it will save taxpayer money in the long run?

[dre]

There is a simple way forward: the BCTF needs to accept the wage terms accepted by the other unions. As long as they refuse they are 100% to blame for the problems faced by parents.

Thats not how collective bargaining works. And the teachers already made an offer on wages that was only 1% off the governments original offer. They are only asking for 8% over 5 years, and they are already some of the lowest paid teachers in the country.

And well see who parents blame for those problems. So far it doesnt look great for the government according to angus ried.

[TimG]

Thats not how collective bargaining works.

There is no basis for fair collective bargaining in the public sector because the employer can't go bankrupt and the employer can simply legislate a settlement.

The government has determined what people are willing to pay in taxes and has made a deal with other unions that includes the right to demand matching increases if the governments gives another union more. The government has offer is the only deal that it can offer and we are only waiting for the BCTF to acknowledge reality.

And well see who parents blame for those problems. So far it doesnt look great for the government according to angus ried.

Get back to me when you have a poll that shows that people are willing increase the taxes that they personally pay in order to settle. All those numbers show me is there are a lot of innumerate people in BC. Edited August 1, 2014 by TimG

[dre]

There is no basis for fair collective bargaining in the public sector because the employer can't go bankrupt and the employer can simply legislate a settlement.

The courts have ruled against the governments attempts to do this so far.

matching increases if the governments gives another union more.

Good lord... what an incredibly stupid thing for the government to do.

In any case... there wont be any movement until the courts are done. Wages are not a big issue here and the BCTF and the government are only 1% apart on those. The sticking points are things like class sizes, and how to compensate the teachers for damaged they incurred as a result of unconstitutional legislation.

[TimG]

The courts have ruled against the governments attempts to do this so far.

The courts have upheld the government's right to place financial limits on any deal. They have only said that government cannot prohibit certain items from being discussed a possible parts of the deal. If the BC liberals had simply legislated the teachers back to work without taking away their right to put certain items on the table there would have been no court case.

i.e. there was nothing unconstitutional about removing the clauses from the contracts.

what was unconstitutional was the prohibition that prevented teachers from asking that they be put back in.

Good lord... what an incredibly stupid thing for the government to do.

I am sure it is because the unions demanded it. No union wants to be the sucker that gets a bad deal compared to their peers.

Wages are not a big issue here and the BCTF and the government are only 1% apart on those.

Wages and benefits are the main sticking point. The government needs the BCTF to take the deal the other unions agreed to. Whether the BCTF is 1% or 10% above it makes no difference. Edited August 1, 2014 by TimG

[dre]

The government needs the BCTF to take the deal the other unions agreed to. Whether the BCTF is 1% or 10% above it makes no difference.

Thats THEIR problem. Teachers will negotiate wages just like everyone else on earth does... based on other wages in that industry. And theirs are quite low. Its not their problem if the government signed a stupid deal and painted themselves into a corner.

Wages and benefits are the main sticking point.

No the main sticking points are 450 million dollars in funding to address class sizes and class composition, and to retroactively compensate teachers for being having unconstitutional legislation imposed on them.

And the reality is there wont be ANY deal or real negotiation until the courts rule on the government appeal. School will start in october or november... the teachers will get their 8% over 5 years, but will probably give up on part of the 450 million.

Edited August 1, 2014 by dre

[TimG]

Its not their problem if the government signed a stupid deal and painted themselves into a corner.

The government is looking after the interests of the taxpayer - a duty which the the courts have affirmed. The teachers can invent whatever rationalization that they want - that does not mean they will get it.

[dre]

The government is looking after the interests of the taxpayer - a duty which the the courts have affirmed. The teachers can invent whatever rationalization that they want - that does not mean they will get it.

Basing compensation on what other people in a given industry are paid is not something the teachers invented. And they WILL get it. When things go down exactly as I told you they would, we can talk again

[overthere]

They are only asking for 8% over 5 years, and they are already some of the lowest paid teachers in the country.

Being paid slightly less than somebody with better negotiating skills than you is simply no justificiation whatsoever for a raise.

Period. It does not mean you are underpaid. It just means other unions have beat you to the punch in using this bizarre metric.

It's a shell game in which everybody takes a turn blubbering about being underpaid because somebody else gets more than you.

How about assessing the work itself and determining if they are paid fairly?

How about considering supply and demand for the skillset?

Danger?

Environmental factors?

Consequnces of error?

You know, all the real metrics in determining pay that are applied elsewhere....

None of this made up "I'm lower than somebody else " baloney.

[dre]

You know, all the real metrics in determining pay that are applied elsewhere....

None of this made up "I'm lower than somebody else " baloney.

The real metrics of determining pay are exactly as I laid out. Salaries are determined by industry research. If I offer to pay $30 an hour in an industry where the average wage is $40 Im going to get shitty workers... regardless of anyones subjective judgement of "danger" or any of the other irrelevant factors you mentioned.

[TimG]

Basing compensation on what other people in a given industry are paid is not something the teachers invented.

In every industry I am aware of geography matters. i.e. professionals often make less in Vancouver because there is more supply and less demand even if the cost of living is higher. I don't see why people living off the taxpayers should be entitled to treatment that people in the private sector do not get.

[Pct2017]

The real metrics of determining pay are exactly as I laid out. Salaries are determined by industry research. If I offer to pay $30 an hour in an industry where the average wage is $40 Im going to get shitty workers... regardless of anyones subjective judgement of "danger" or any of the other irrelevant factors you mentioned.

Comparative based wages are one part of a negotiated settlement, but please do not confuse them with being the sole factor involved. There is also supply and demand as well as work force mobility to consider. We all know about the supply and demand of teachers in BC. Way fewer jobs than there are teachers, so there is no pressure there to increase wages. And to the best of my knowledge, there is very little workforce mobility with our whiny teachers. They love to complain about how someone in Swift Current, Saskatchewan can make $100/month more than here in BC, but none of them seem to be moving to Swift Current or any other Canadian city. And even if one or two did leave, there would be 500 applicants for their job on the superintendent's desk the next week. The fact that we pay our teachers less (although I do actually not believe that it is by that much when you take into account our lower income taxes and the teachers higher total benefit packages when compared to other provinces) is testament to this fact.

Look, the teachers of BC are going to get the exact same deal that was available to them on July 1, 2013. Anyone over the age of 12 know that, except for our exceptionally slow thinking teachers.

[Pct2017]

And Dre, you kind of forgot to post the rest of the Angus Reid poll which stated that although respondents stated that they supported the BCTF over the government, only 21% of them supported the BCTF's wage demands. And you obviously do not live in BC (or Alberta) because out here, we put very little faith in polls after the last provincial election.

[overthere]

Thats THEIR problem. Teachers will negotiate wages just like everyone else on earth does... based on other wages in that industry. And theirs are quite low. Its not their problem if the government signed a stupid deal and painted themselves into a corner.

No the main sticking points are 450 million dollars in funding to address class sizes and class composition, and to retroactively compensate teachers for being having unconstitutional legislation imposed on them.

And the reality is there wont be ANY deal or real negotiation until the courts rule on the government appeal. School will start in october or november... the teachers will get their 8% over 5 years, but will probably give up on part of the 450 million.

It is completely false premise that teachers negotiate as others do.

Private sector unions and management base negotiations with two primary factors in mind: supply and demand of labour, and profitability of the business.

The BCTF doesn't give a rats ass about either, nor do any public service unions.

I don't blame them for that, despite the sham of pretending that they have some other motive than the exclusive benefit of their members in any negotiation.

The public sector union buntosses have gotten a bit bitter in recent years because the govt occasionally shows a thin slice of spine, and the unions are shocked to this novel behaviour.

[socialist]

$40 a day is a disappointment to parents. Parents know this is nothing more than a silyy trick. It has backfired on the libs as more parents and the public are supporting teachers and the BCTF.

http://www.langleytimes.com/opinion/letters/269571241.html

This is for all the teacher bashers out there who have no clue.

http://www.cowichannewsleader.com/opinion/264279711.html

Teachers are fighting for a better education system.

http://www.missioncityrecord.com/opinion/letters/269589901.html

http://www.burnabynewsleader.com/opinion/269616981.html

Education needs proper funding.

http://www.vernonmorningstar.com/opinion/letters/269217731.html

Who will stand up for public education?

http://www.mapleridgenews.com/opinion/269466421.html

Some of you (PCT) need to read these VERY carefully.

[Hal 9000]

I just can't be offended by the gov giving us $40 per day, it shows that they really care about the young families.

Those who are offended (like Jill Adamovich) should sign their cheques over to the first teacher they see in a show of support.

[Pct2017]

So, Vince Ready the miracle worker has agreed to facilitate (not mediate) these negotiations. I have it on good authority that the first thing he did was put Jim Iker in front of a chalk board and write "I promise to stop being a greedy, ignorant pig and I also promise to stop telling lies to both the BCTF membership as well as the general public" one hundred times. He then produced a leather strap and said "OK Jimbo, we are going old school with these negotiations. Do not make me use this".

Seriously, this really is the last chance for the whiny teachers to do what all of us know to be obvious, and that is to accept the offer on the table now. Otherwise, it will be October before they get legislated back, thus being forced to take the offer on the table now.

[socialist]

So, Vince Ready the miracle worker has agreed to facilitate (not mediate) these negotiations. I have it on good authority that the first thing he did was put Jim Iker in front of a chalk board and write "I promise to stop being a greedy, ignorant pig and I also promise to stop telling lies to both the BCTF membership as well as the general public" one hundred times. He then produced a leather strap and said "OK Jimbo, we are going old school with these negotiations. Do not make me use this".

Seriously, this really is the last chance for the whiny teachers to do what all of us know to be obvious, and that is to accept the offer on the table now. Otherwise, it will be October before they get legislated back, thus being forced to take the offer on the table now.

Hey PCT. Read this and then read the public comments. What a stupid move by the government. You, again, prove that you know nothing about public education. Read and weep.

http://www.cbc.ca/newsblogs/yourcommunity/2014/08/bc-teachers-strike-cbc-readers-slam-government-40-a-day-per-child-offer.html

[socialist]

So, Vince Ready the miracle worker has agreed to facilitate (not mediate) these negotiations. I have it on good authority that the first thing he did was put Jim Iker in front of a chalk board and write "I promise to stop being a greedy, ignorant pig and I also promise to stop telling lies to both the BCTF membership as well as the general public" one hundred times. He then produced a leather strap and said "OK Jimbo, we are going old school with these negotiations. Do not make me use this".

Seriously, this really is the last chance for the whiny teachers to do what all of us know to be obvious, and that is to accept the offer on the table now. Otherwise, it will be October before they get legislated back, thus being forced to take the offer on the table now.

Here's another PCT. Playing you like a fiddle is amusing.

http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/b-c-teachers-strike-readers-respond-to-macleans-editorial/

[righton]

Did you know that teachers salaries are now posted on the internet and are now public knowledge? A new teacher straight out of school makes $35k a year. Not bad for a young kids first job. But... They only have to work 5 hours a day, and refuse to work anymore than that, for 9 months a year! They get 10 sick days that they can bank year after year, full benefits, and a pension! If you break this down, this works out to $35/hour. If you worked a proper 40 hour week all year at this rate you would earn $72,800. Now that's not bad for being right out of school!!!

If you apply this same model to a teacher that has been teaching for 30 years who earns $70k a year, that's the equivalent of nearly $72 per hour! In real work hours that's like $150,000 per year! Wow!!! Not bad at all.

This teachers strike is strictly about money. The are now down to a 25 hr work week for 9 months of the year, and they want more money to not give a damn about the kids education. If they actually cared for the kids education, they wouldn't make this strike about money, it would be about more support, aid, and resources for the schools and smaller classes. Instead it's just a simple act of greed because they can. They feel they are entitled because they are creating the future of our country. In my experience, they don't give a damn about the kids, they just push them through the systems regardless of their ability to get them off their plate. They don't want to put in the effort to help kids that require any extra help because that would be too much trouble and they're not paid for that...

The government will never legislate them back to work for many reasons. They're too darn scared the NDP will use it against them in the next election and gain to much support for one. And if they did force them back, if you think the teachers don't care about the kids now, it would be like sending your kids into a snake pit every morning. These teachers are too stupid to realize how good they have it, so this will never change.

[Wilber]

I just can't be offended by the gov giving us $40 per day, it shows that they really care about the young families.

Those who are offended (like Jill Adamovich) should sign their cheques over to the first teacher they see in a show of support.

Now we are paying people not to send their kids to school. Brilliant.

[WestCoastRunner]

Did you know that teachers salaries are now posted on the internet and are now public knowledge? A new teacher straight out of school makes $35k a year. Not bad for a young kids first job. But... They only have to work 5 hours a day, and refuse to work anymore than that, for 9 months a year! They get 10 sick days that they can bank year after year, full benefits, and a pension! If you break this down, this works out to $35/hour. If you worked a proper 40 hour week all year at this rate you would earn $72,800. Now that's not bad for being right out of school!!!

If you apply this same model to a teacher that has been teaching for 30 years who earns $70k a year, that's the equivalent of nearly $72 per hour! In real work hours that's like $150,000 per year! Wow!!! Not bad at all.

This teachers strike is strictly about money. The are now down to a 25 hr work week for 9 months of the year, and they want more money to not give a damn about the kids education. If they actually cared for the kids education, they wouldn't make this strike about money, it would be about more support, aid, and resources for the schools and smaller classes. Instead it's just a simple act of greed because they can. They feel they are entitled because they are creating the future of our country. In my experience, they don't give a damn about the kids, they just push them through the systems regardless of their ability to get them off their plate. They don't want to put in the effort to help kids that require any extra help because that would be too much trouble and they're not paid for that...

The government will never legislate them back to work for many reasons. They're too darn scared the NDP will use it against them in the next election and gain to much support for one. And if they did force them back, if you think the teachers don't care about the kids now, it would be like sending your kids into a snake pit every morning. These teachers are too stupid to realize how good they have it, so this will never change.

I can see you have an open mind.