BC Teachers Getting Screwed...Again

[overthere]

Of course it is ALL about money. If the teachers reduced their wage demands I am sure the government would relent on class size and composition. The disagreement is because the teachers want rich wage increases on top of class size demands and the government simply does not have the money. There will be no resolution until the teachers accept that reality.

Class size and money are totallly linked anyway.... Decreased class sizes, even without an increase in student numbers, means that more teachers must be hired. There is no way around that: decrease class size, increase number of teachers. And of course pay all of them more.

But who cares, the largesse of taxpayers is unlimited.

[socialist]

Class size and money are totallly linked anyway.... Decreased class sizes, even without an increase in student numbers, means that more teachers must be hired. There is no way around that: decrease class size, increase number of teachers. And of course pay all of them more.

But who cares, the largesse of taxpayers is unlimited.

It's the taxpayers job to fund education. Public education gives everyone a chance, but not when it is under funded. Public education = DEMOCRACY. You against DEMOCRACY?

[socialist]

Rotating strikes start today in BC. I expect to see a majority of the public demand the liberal government fund education properly. The support of the public has been increasing daily while the BC Liberals party it up.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/b-c-teachers-rotating-strikes-shut-schools-starting-today-1.2653880

[Bryan]

Every teacher that walks out on their students is exposing just how little they actually think of those kids. This is absolute proof that they are flat out lying when they say they care one bit about the kids. Selfish crybabies is what those teachers are. They should all be fired.

[GostHacked]

Hey PCT, how does it feel to be wrong? Parents are supporting the BCTF. Don't believe me? Go to twitter and read #bced. You don't need an account. I'm sue you won't because you want to resist reality. BCTF gaining support. Have a nice day!!!!

You don't get valuable information from Twitter.

[GostHacked]

It's the taxpayers job to fund education. Public education gives everyone a chance, but not when it is under funded. Public education = DEMOCRACY. You against DEMOCRACY?

Having a choice between, public, private and homeschooling equals democracy. Public education is hardly indicative of a democracy.

[GostHacked]

Class size and money are totallly linked anyway.... Decreased class sizes, even without an increase in student numbers, means that more teachers must be hired. There is no way around that: decrease class size, increase number of teachers. And of course pay all of them more.

But who cares, the largesse of taxpayers is unlimited.

One issue is that if you increase the class size too much, then one teacher does not have enough time to address each student. Meaning not just more class work, but more after class work (grading papers ect). An overload of work for a teacher means your child is not getting the proper education that he/she deserves.

There is a balance and a class being too small is also an issue. A teacher can handle 20-25 students without much of a problem. Get that number past 30 and up, and problems will arise. Get that number too low and we have an excess of teachers.

[Pct2017]

So here is an idea to address both class size and teacher salary in one fell swoop. Link teacher salaries to number of students taught. Have a sliding scale just like the current salary grid, but set the salary to number of students taught by the individual teacher. In other words, give the teachers $2400 average (this would range from $2200 to $2600 depending on years experience etc) per student and then let each individual teacher commit each August to how many students she desires to teach. Want lots of money? Sign up for 35 students. Want small class size? Sign up for 15 students. Leave the choice up to the individual teacher. Then administration can hire/fire teachers as necessary to match the number of students registered. before the school year starts.

This of course does not address class composition, but hiring a pile more EA's from outside the BCTF would go a long way to mollify individual teacher's concerns.

Of course, outcomes would have to be part of the solution also. Kid drops out? No $2400. Parents complain and want to move teachers part way through the year? No $2400.

This solution would be very similar to how the medical system works in that doctors get paid by patient visits, not an annual salary, or at least I believe that is how they are remunerated.

Edited May 26, 2014 by Pct2017

[cybercoma]

This is absolute proof that they are flat out lying when they say they care one bit about the kids.

People who are fighting for better classroom conditions don't "care one bit about the kids," eh? That's some interesting logic.

[cybercoma]

Link teacher salaries to number of students taught.

Terrible idea. Teachers have no control over class size decisions made by administrators. It would also create a massive disincentive for new teachers to head to remote areas where teachers are desperately needed.

[TimG]

People who are fighting for better classroom conditions don't "care one bit about the kids," eh? That's some interesting logic.

They are hypocrites because they are demanding huge wage increases on top of their classroom demands. If it was really about the kids they would just focus on issues that affect the kids. But since excessive pay demands are part of the package it is reasonable to assume that teachers are looking after teachers and the kids are just tools. Edited May 26, 2014 by TimG

[Pct2017]

Terrible idea. Teachers have no control over class size decisions made by administrators. It would also create a massive disincentive for new teachers to head to remote areas where teachers are desperately needed.

I believe you are missing the point. Administrators would not decide class size. Individual teachers would choose their class size and consequently their pay grade. Truly challenged kids would still count, but they would be supported by non-BCTF EA's. As for small, remote schools, there could be incentives built into the system just like there are for doctors to work in non-urban centres.

Much like the public has some say in who their GP is, parents would also be encouraged to request their kids not be taught by known lousy teachers thus providing a mechanism to weed out theses types of teachers.

I would love to see some evidence that there is a "desperate need" for teachers in remote locations in BC. That would be surprising, and quite frankly a damning indictment of recent BEd grads.

Edited May 26, 2014 by Pct2017

[Pct2017]

And while I am fixing the entire system, I also think that School Boards are an unnecessary expense, albeit a small one. We do not elect Police Boards or Fireman Boards, so why do we elect and pay for School Boards. School District superintendents should report directly to the Ministry of Education.

And, finally, individual School District contracts for teachers should be rolled into one single contract for the entire province. An example of where this would help is the recent news story created when 600 teachers were "laid off" in Coquitlam due to a budget shortfall. Well, when you look at the budget for that SD, their loading costs for employee benefits is above 30% while most of the rest of the SD's in BC seem to run between 22% to 25%. If bennies were reduced in Coquitlam by 5%, their budget would have balanced. Funny how the BCTF failed to mention this little fact when they were setting their hair on fire about this last week.

[overthere]

It's the taxpayers job to fund education. Public education gives everyone a chance, but not when it is under funded. Public education = DEMOCRACY. You against DEMOCRACY?

Everybody wants more money. You're angry because for the first time ever your employer is telling you to suck it up.

Perhaps they could cut health care funding to give you more. I hope the kids don't die before they get speling and grammer lessons from your colleagues.

[cybercoma]

I believe you are missing the point. Administrators would not decide class size. Individual teachers would choose their class size and consequently their pay grade.

How does that work in practice? Now you strip the administrators of their ability to determine the number of teachers they will have for the number of students in their communities. Your idea makes no sense and like I said it creates a disincentive for working in remote locations. It also doesn't take into account the variable costs of living in different places. A $1 in Toronto isn't a $1 in Northern Manitoba isn't even the same dollar in London, ON. Edited May 26, 2014 by cybercoma

[socialist]

Everybody wants more money. You're angry because for the first time ever your employer is telling you to suck it up.

Perhaps they could cut health care funding to give you more. I hope the kids don't die before they get speling and grammer lessons from your colleagues.

Well, the public is pissed off at Clark's government over there under funding of public education.

[Pct2017]

How does that work in practice? Now you strip the administrators of their ability to determine the number of teachers they will have for the number of students in their communities. Your idea makes no sense and like I said it creates a disincentive for working in remote locations. It also doesn't take into account the variable costs of living in different places. A $1 in Toronto isn't a $1 in Northern Manitoba isn't even the same dollar in London, ON.

No, you enable admin to know exactly what their costs per student are going to be. It would be a dream for them. I am curious just how your argument about working in remote places works in the current, very broken model? What are the incentives to work in the north vs an urban centre now?

This suggestion goes a long ways to solve a bunch of issues here in BC. It would address the court case as it would put class size back into the collective agreement, it would allow young teachers to get work if the existing teachers stick to their ideals and reduce class sizes and it does not increase costs for the taxpayer.

Look, I am a realist enough to know that the BCTF would not entertain an idea like this because they only want higher pay and reduced workloads for the teachers. But I really do think that there is an alternative model out there to replace the sadly broken one in place today.

BTW, you do know that Toronto and Flin Flon are in different provinces, do you not? And hopefully you know that education is a provincial matter, not federal.

[socialist]

No, you enable admin to know exactly what their costs per student are going to be. It would be a dream for them. I am curious just how your argument about working in remote places works in the current, very broken model? What are the incentives to work in the north vs an urban centre now?

This suggestion goes a long ways to solve a bunch of issues here in BC. It would address the court case as it would put class size back into the collective agreement, it would allow young teachers to get work if the existing teachers stick to their ideals and reduce class sizes and it does not increase costs for the taxpayer.

Look, I am a realist enough to know that the BCTF would not entertain an idea like this because they only want higher pay and reduced workloads for the teachers. But I really do think that there is an alternative model out there to replace the sadly broken one in place today.

BTW, you do know that Toronto and Flin Flon are in different provinces, do you not? And hopefully you know that education is a provincial matter, not federal.

BCTF is interested in helping kids through proper funding of public education. You know little. Look at all the picket lines today. Those are the people who care about kids, teachers and BCTF members. I'm glad Jim Iker is not being pushed over by a bullying government.

[socialist]

No, you enable admin to know exactly what their costs per student are going to be. It would be a dream for them. I am curious just how your argument about working in remote places works in the current, very broken model? What are the incentives to work in the north vs an urban centre now?

This suggestion goes a long ways to solve a bunch of issues here in BC. It would address the court case as it would put class size back into the collective agreement, it would allow young teachers to get work if the existing teachers stick to their ideals and reduce class sizes and it does not increase costs for the taxpayer.

Look, I am a realist enough to know that the BCTF would not entertain an idea like this because they only want higher pay and reduced workloads for the teachers. But I really do think that there is an alternative model out there to replace the sadly broken one in place today.

BTW, you do know that Toronto and Flin Flon are in different provinces, do you not? And hopefully you know that education is a provincial matter, not federal.

Dear Parent of the Average Child: One BC Teacher's Confession.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/genevieve-hawtree/bc-teachers-strike-2014_b_5387643.html?utm_hp_ref=tw

Maybe now PCT, gosthacked, overthere and all the other teacher bashers will get a clue about reality.

[socialist]

No, you enable admin to know exactly what their costs per student are going to be. It would be a dream for them. I am curious just how your argument about working in remote places works in the current, very broken model? What are the incentives to work in the north vs an urban centre now?

This suggestion goes a long ways to solve a bunch of issues here in BC. It would address the court case as it would put class size back into the collective agreement, it would allow young teachers to get work if the existing teachers stick to their ideals and reduce class sizes and it does not increase costs for the taxpayer.

Look, I am a realist enough to know that the BCTF would not entertain an idea like this because they only want higher pay and reduced workloads for the teachers. But I really do think that there is an alternative model out there to replace the sadly broken one in place today.

BTW, you do know that Toronto and Flin Flon are in different provinces, do you not? And hopefully you know that education is a provincial matter, not federal.

Hey PCT. Looks like you and your ignorance is losing this battle. BC PUBLIC SUPPORTS TEACHERS!!! HA!! Just what I told ya. You mad bro?

http://globalnews.ca/news/1355104/more-british-columbians-support-the-teachers-than-the-government-poll/

[Bryan]

People who are fighting for better classroom conditions don't "care one bit about the kids," eh? That's some interesting logic.

They are fighting for their own pocketbooks, nothing else. AND, they are walking out on those kids they claim to care about. Lairs and hypocrites, the lot of them.

At least the BC govt is docking their pay if they walk, but that doesn't even come close to going far enough. What they should be doing is firing anyone who walks. You were hired to do a job, if you don't want it, we'll find someone who does.

[Mighty AC]

Spoken like a man that truly cares about education.

[Hydraboss]

From the new teacher's own link...

Overall, 47 per cent of people say they support the strike, with 53 per cent saying it is unreasonable.

...and...

There is also majority support among parents for binding arbitration rather than negotiated settlements to settle contract disputes between the BC Teachers’ Federation and the government. Fifty-seven per cent of parents would like to see this and future deals settled through arbitration rather then negotiation.

Guess the "majority" of people in BC support the strike. If you don't know what a "majority" means.

[Pct2017]

There is so much energy being put into trying to determine which "side" is leading public opinion about the mess that the BCTF has brought upon our fine province. Really, people, stop and ask yourselves why does public opinion even enter into this strike/negotiations. The Liberals, despite the best efforts of the BCTF ($2 million in teachers dues spent on advertising for the NDP), the Liberals won the only opinion poll that matters one year ago. And now they do not face another election for another three years. And in the life of the electorate, three years is an absolute eternity.

So, for those of you who do not live in BC, if you were here, you would see the government negotiators taking very much a different approach to these negotiations than two years ago. They are playing hardball. Want to start "job action" there teachers? Ok, that will be 5% off your salary. Want to ratchet up that job action there BCTF? Ok, you get to pay the bennies for your members next month ( estimated at $5 million/month). Oh, and by the way, your members are now short 10% on their paycheques.

This is a totally different tone from years gone by and that is because the government does not have to worry about "public opinion". And that has to be driving the BCTF batshit crazy.

And by the way, out here in BC, we put very little credence in public opinion polls. Last May, the NDP was slated to win a landslide victory according to the polls. And, well, history was written a bit differently than that.

[Michael Hardner]

They are playing hardball.

Ontario tried that in the past, and it ended up in a long war that the public tired of - eventually the government was replaced and teachers got back their gains. I think that if smart people on both sides of the education labour divide reached out and revised the process, that might lead to (I hate to use this term but it's apt) win-win.

Unfortunately, though, too many people have a personal axe to grind and are not pragmatic. They're obsessed with "getting" the teachers, or - on the other hand - the corporate neo-liberal blah blah blah.

I know teachers who would concede major advantages - only if major reforms were to happen on the management side as well.

Those of you who rail on about teachers need to understand that the worst of them go on to become administration, ie. management - and that's who you're siding with.